Poetic protest sparks protest for the right to protest

[Aimless]

It's really quite poetic:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...y-7575770.html

Student suspended for seven terms for reading a poem (protesting decisions re. tuition fees) that ultimately disrupted Willett's speech.

[CitizenCain]

One hopes the kid at least learns a bit about the nature of the world from this incident.

[Lewkowski]

I just skimmed it but let me get this straight... the goal of the protest was to silent a speaker?

"
The crime which brought down this draconian punishment? He read a poem out loud. Being Cambridge, he called it an "epistle", but no matter. What matters, at least in the eyes of the university's Court of Discipline, is that he read his poem at an event featuring the higher education minister David Willetts, right. He was one of 60 students and academics involved in the anti-fees protest. "You are not a welcome guest because you come with a knife beneath your cloak", they chanted. "We are not consumers; we are students."

Eventually Willetts gave up – heaven knows how the poor lamb copes with the spittle-flecked hecklers in the House of Commons – and went home without delivering his speech. There was no threat to his safety, no criminal damage done. The protesters used verse, not vandalism to make their point. You might argue, as the Court of Discipline did, that freedom of speech goes both ways and Willetts should have been allowed to say his piece.
"

I'm glad they punished the little twit.

[Khendraja'aro]

Yeah, I expect that kind of sentiment from you. After all, every kind of person with an IQ above room temperature must seem a threat to you.

[Lewkowski]

Yeah, I expect that kind of sentiment from you. After all, every kind of person with an IQ above room temperature must seem a threat to you.

Disruption of events and not allowing someone to speak is something that everyone should be against. Its hilarious that liberals want the freedom the silence people... Well actually its kind of sad but expected.

[Aimless]

The uni's legal counsel sought a suspension of 1 term from what I've gathered, and if that's true I'm even more surprised by the ridiculous 7 term sentence.

A single English-lit major can't disrupt a speech by reading out "poetry". It takes a large crowd. God hates ministers

[wiggin]

Interestingly, there was a not-too-different case at a speech by Michael Oren (Israel's ambassador to the US) at UC Irvine. The rhetoric was rather less pleasant than a poem, of course, but the basic point was the same. The students were criminally prosecuted for infringing on Oren's right to free speech, and sentenced to 50-odd hours of community service as well as a 3-year probation (sentencing was about 6 months ago). While I agree they infringed on free speech rights in both cases (though I don't know how those rights are codified in the UK), I feel like such things should be dealt with administratively, and then with a punishment that's likely to be instructive rather than overkill. Just IMO.

[Dreadnaught]

Don't they usually have police at these things to remove people one-by-one if they are being disruptive?

[Lewkowski]

Interestingly, there was a not-too-different case at a speech by Michael Oren (Israel's ambassador to the US) at UC Irvine. The rhetoric was rather less pleasant than a poem, of course, but the basic point was the same. The students were criminally prosecuted for infringing on Oren's right to free speech, and sentenced to 50-odd hours of community service as well as a 3-year probation (sentencing was about 6 months ago). While I agree they infringed on free speech rights in both cases (though I don't know how those rights are codified in the UK), I feel like such things should be dealt with administratively, and then with a punishment that's likely to be instructive rather than overkill. Just IMO.

People follow the law for two reasons. Moral belief is one. IE - Its not right to hurt, kill, suppress, steal ect from others. If someone lacks a moral compass (however you want to define it) the only other reason is fear of the consequences. This is why harsher punishments are better because they create fear.

Society *wants* little twits like this to sit down and shut up and be *afraid*. If they have complaint they can debate, writer letters, argue and convince; NOT disrupt an event and not allow someone to speak.

[wiggin]

I think you're wrong, Lewk. I think that the students probably genuinely believe in free speech and just haven't been convinced that this applies to officials they disagree with just as much as it applies to them. A punishment is appropriate, no question - but I think a ridiculously severe one just victimizes rather than instructs.

[LittleFuzzy]

Interestingly, there was a not-too-different case at a speech by Michael Oren (Israel's ambassador to the US) at UC Irvine. The rhetoric was rather less pleasant than a poem, of course, but the basic point was the same. The students were criminally prosecuted for infringing on Oren's right to free speech, and sentenced to 50-odd hours of community service as well as a 3-year probation (sentencing was about 6 months ago). While I agree they infringed on free speech rights in both cases (though I don't know how those rights are codified in the UK), I feel like such things should be dealt with administratively, and then with a punishment that's likely to be instructive rather than overkill. Just IMO.

What were they criminally prosecuted for? I.e. what were the charges? As not-so-different goes, successful prosecution under a legal system with pretty heavy rules protecting speech strikes me as something more on the "different" side.

[Lewkowski]

I think you're wrong, Lewk. I think that the students probably genuinely believe in free speech and just haven't been convinced that this applies to officials they disagree with just as much as it applies to them. A punishment is appropriate, no question - but I think a ridiculously severe one just victimizes rather than instructs.

How am I wrong? Their moral compass is skewed if they think its OK to disrupts and shout down someone legally attending. In that situation the only way to keep them from doing this is fear of the consequences. If someone wants to do something the only way they aren't going to do it is if they decide its immoral or they fear the consequences of taking the action.

[CitizenCain]

How am I wrong?

In every way, as usual.

The right to speak freely in no way translates to the right to be heard. Dipshit government official has the right the to speak, as does dipshit poem-reading junior comrade. That poem-reading comrade is more popular, and the 60 other people had no intention of listening to dipshit government stooge is of no consequence. Government stooge chose not speak to a hostile audience, and this should no be a matter of law.

And try as I might, I can't see you exercising any degree of consistency: had the poem-reading moron been a Bible-thumping fucktard screaming about how God hates faggots, I somehow suspect you'd defend him to the death.

[Loki]

In every way, as usual.

The right to speak freely in no way translates to the right to be heard. Dipshit government official has the right the to speak, as does dipshit poem-reading junior comrade. That poem-reading comrade is more popular, and the 60 other people had no intention of listening to dipshit government stooge is of no consequence. Government stooge chose not speak to a hostile audience, and this should no be a matter of law.

And try as I might, I can't see you exercising any degree of consistency: had the poem-reading moron been a Bible-thumping fucktard screaming about how God hates faggots, I somehow suspect you'd defend him to the death.

The issue of free speech is irrelevant here. Neither Cambridge nor the student in question is part of the government. Cambridge is a private institution that has clear rules and interests. By disregarding both, the student embarrassed the university, worsening its reputation, and made it much more difficult to recruit similar speakers in the future. While the punishment was probably too harsh (a year would make more sense), it was fully within the rights of the university to "refuse to do business" with an individual who was too stupid to follow important rules.

[Khendraja'aro]

They still do receive funding from the government, though. As such, they're still part of the government - especially if they invite some government official to hold a speech.

Not to mention that the university lists "freedom of speech and thought" among its core values.

If our universities in Germany did the same thing, our campus would be pretty empty.

[Aimless]

The punishment was decided by an "independent" court

[Khendraja'aro]

Riiiight. Independent court consisting solely of government-friendly, 80-year-old coots, I dare say.

[Loki]

They still do receive funding from the government, though. As such, they're still part of the government - especially if they invite some government official to hold a speech.

Not to mention that the university lists "freedom of speech and thought" among its core values.

If our universities in Germany did the same thing, our campus would be pretty empty.

So what? Is this the backdoor socialist way of forcing all private entities to bow to your will? Receiving government funds doesn't make you a government institution. Or perhaps you are a government institution because you get money from the government?

I'd like to know which interpretation of free speech and thought allows one to shout down those you disagree with.

[Khendraja'aro]

I'm wondering where you're getting that from. Maybe it's some particular Loki-esque disability to read and the bizarre inability to not pull facts from thin air.

Maybe you could point out the passages I wrote which allowed you to come to your hare-brained conclusions?

For the record: While disrupting such a speech is definitely not good manners and should carry some kind of punishment, I'm also a firm believer of "the punishment should fit the crime". In this instance, it definitely doesn't fit. A German university would not be able to get away with something like that - the courts would slap them down hard.

[Aimless]

Riiiight. Independent court consisting solely of government-friendly, 80-year-old coots, I dare say.

I was addressing this bit from Loki's post:

it was fully within the rights of the university to "refuse to do business" with an individual who was too stupid to follow important rules.

The uni sought a much shorter suspension, ie. wanted to do business again with the student much sooner. The court is outta whack

[Lewkowski]

They still do receive funding from the government, though. As such, they're still part of the government - especially if they invite some government official to hold a speech.

Not to mention that the university lists "freedom of speech and thought" among its core values.

If our universities in Germany did the same thing, our campus would be pretty empty.

Allowing someone to speak is supporting freedom of speech. Heckling an event is the opposite of freedom of speech.

[LittleFuzzy]

The issue of free speech is irrelevant here. Neither Cambridge nor the student in question is part of the government.

How are they irrelevant if the government isn't involved? That matters if we're only concerned about this as a matter of legal rights. Cambridge, like most higher-education institutions, claims to honor or even embody free thought and expression.

[Lewkowski]

How are they irrelevant if the government isn't involved? That matters if we're only concerned about this as a matter of legal rights. Cambridge, like most higher-education institutions, claims to honor or even embody free thought and expression.

Which is why they should have a zero tolerance policy on anyone who attempts to suppress speech via heckling.

[Loki]

How are they irrelevant if the government isn't involved? That matters if we're only concerned about this as a matter of legal rights. Cambridge, like most higher-education institutions, claims to honor or even embody free thought and expression.

Because freedom of speech is a right you have vis-a-vis the government, not vis-a-vis private actors. You don't have the right to say what you want inside of my house or inside of your workplace.

[Khendraja'aro]

There are still rules, Loki. You can't do everything you want to do inside your house or company.

[Loki]

I can prevent people from entering it for any reason I choose and I can kick people out for any reason I choose.

[LittleFuzzy]

Because freedom of speech is a right you have vis-a-vis the government, not vis-a-vis private actors. You don't have the right to say what you want inside of my house or inside of your workplace.

Yes, freedom of speech as a right does speak specifically to an agent's relationship vis a vis the government. I don't think I saw people referencing that though. I saw them talking about free speech. We may use that phrase as colloquial shorthand for the political right to freedom of speech but free speech is hardly exclusive to that venue and the context here is plainly not regarding the political right. I'm not objecting on a "rights" platform Loki, I'm objecting on a hypocrisy one.

[Loki]

Yes, freedom of speech as a right does speak specifically to an agent's relationship vis a vis the government. I don't think I saw people referencing that though. I saw them talking about free speech. We may use that phrase as colloquial shorthand for the political right to freedom of speech but free speech is hardly exclusive to that venue and the context here is plainly not regarding the political right. I'm not objecting on a "rights" platform Loki, I'm objecting on a hypocrisy one.

And as has already been pointed out in this thread, I fail to see how shouting someone down is an example of using free speech.

[Steely Glint]

I actually agree with Lewkowski on this one - silencing someone by, e.g. shouting them down or preventing them from being heard, should not be regarded as a legitimate form of protest.

[Veldan Rath]

I actually agree with Lewkowski on this one - silencing someone by, e.g. shouting them down or preventing them from being heard, should not be regarded as a legitimate form of protest.

And the Angel broke the 4th seal....