German Government Neo-Luddism

[earthJoker]

When did Germany become the new France?

Oh well.

You're confusing offender with victim here. And to answer the "when" question, well 1939-1945

[Dreadnaught]

Not to agree with OG even more, but why does Dread have this uncut hardon to poke at Germany (aside to irritate Khen?)

I answered this just a few posts before:

I think they deserve more criticism than other governments because this is the first (and, as far as I know, only) governing coalition to propose this. Coupled with a number of other Web/content policies plus their status as a battleground for electronics manufacturers to sue each other, I think they are truly unique at this time.

The German legal environment is becoming very hostile to basic services and features in the Internet/consumer electronics space.

In the case of this law, this is the first example I've seen of a government actively proposing a law to make companies pay to hyperlink to other sites. When a Belgian court ruled that search engines had to pay for linking to news sites, they got laughed at. Having someone in a governing coalition in Germany actively propose this nutty idea six years later merits scorn and ridicule.

I don't have a particular hardon for Germany. I want Germany to succeed, not the least so that it can heap scorn on fiscally incompetent countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal and France.

Separately, I wonder how much this environment is a reflection of having a much-vaunted "industrial policy".

[CitizenCain]

c) If you look at the HTML on any given news article, you'll see they already do this. Not only do they use the meta description tag, but also use facebook's open graph meta tags. So their pages are already optimised to appear on search engines or be shared on facebook. So they can't be that butthurt over it.

And why not? Not like these guys are the only ones who try to use the government to have their cake and eat it too, or that blatant hypocrisy matters for much anyway.

[Ominous Gamer]

The main argument is Germany has a system of dedicated patent courts, which render quick decisions but are overwhelmingly favorable to patent holders. The courts are also very willing to ban the sale of products that violate patents. So the large tech companies are abusing German courts to block sales of whole lines of electronic products in a major market.

Yeah, this is totally a German thing.

[Dreadnaught]

Hard to find articles in English about the proposed Leistungsschutzrecht law. But I suggest doing a news search for Leistungsschutzrecht and using a translater for some of the stuff you see.

Basically, any snippet of copyright would be protected if it's considered "press work" (albeit the definition of "press work" remains highly vague). Anyone who uses even the slightest snippet of "press work" would be subject to takedown notice and legal sanction.

In other words, everything from Reddit to theworldforgotten.com would be illegal in Germany. The law has been criticized quite a bit by the German BDI and Digital Society (two groups with reasonable policy/publicity weight over there). But it's really an uphill fight against the entrench interests of media and Luddism. Fortunately the battle has probably been won for now.

[earthJoker]

I totally agree with Rand, the Leistungsschutzrecht is totally ridiculous, but OG posted something about patents. And regarding patents, the US is really at least on the same level of ridiculousness as Germany.

[Dreadnaught]

This thread was started to discuss how the German legal system seems unable to cope with information in the digital age. So is Wraith's. Patents aren't really the main subject.

[earthJoker]

Patents aren't really the main subject.

No, but the part in OGs quote is.

[Flixy]

This thread was started to discuss how the German legal system seems unable to cope with information in the digital age. So is Wraith's. Patents aren't really the main subject.

While I agree to some extent with this, you seem to focus a lot on the German system, while your own legal system seems equally unable.

[ar81]

The idea of copyright came from publishers who wanted to keep their monopoly. They disguised their monopolic intention under the argument of "protecting authors". If Google links or copy an image, they are doing advertising.

[Flixy]

The idea of copyright came from publishers who wanted to keep their monopoly. They disguised their monopolic intention under the argument of "protecting authors". If Google links or copy an image, they are doing advertising.

That's pretty simplistic, and untrue. If there is no copyright, authors have no protection if someone uses their work. Why would anyone pay you for your work if they can get it for free on Google? So that's not exactly advertising, not always anyway.

[LittleFuzzy]

That's pretty simplistic, and untrue. If there is no copyright, authors have no protection if someone uses their work. Why would anyone pay you for your work if they can get it for free on Google? So that's not exactly advertising, not always anyway.

Completely ahistorical *affirms* Copyright was invented when most people were self-publishing *because most writers were also printers*

[Dreadnaught]

While I agree to some extent with this, you seem to focus a lot on the German system, while your own legal system seems equally unable.

In what ways? I focus on the German legal system because Germany is the only developed nation whose parliament habitually proposes laws that effectively outlaw common Internet technologies. Or whose courts seriously entertain the idea of deleting historical records to maintain an implausible and ill-conceived "right to be forgotten".

The US doesn't even come close to things like trying to set up a payment structure to hyperlink to a Web site. It's laughably beyond the realm of possibility here. The one time any kind of law came close (SOPA), there was a pretty swift national outcry. And yet we keep on hearing these insane stories out of Germany.

[Flixy]

In what ways? I focus on the German legal system because Germany is the only developed nation whose parliament habitually proposes laws that effectively outlaw common Internet technologies. Or whose courts seriously entertain the idea of deleting historical records to maintain an implausible and ill-conceived "right to be forgotten".

The US doesn't even come close to things like trying to set up a payment structure to hyperlink to a Web site. It's laughably beyond the realm of possibility here. The one time any kind of law came close (SOPA), there was a pretty swift national outcry. And yet we keep on hearing these insane stories out of Germany.

SOPA was very insane, and even more against the basics of the internet. And it had a bigger scope, and a majority at first, so your legislators are just as bad. The reason there was a bigger outcry is because A) it would affect the internet worldwide and B) it was much more insane. Without the outcry from big companies and online communities, it might have passed, and they would care less about a relatively small country with less insane laws. The momentum just isn't there for a big enough outcry I suppose. ACTA got a bigger momentum against it, and that's mostly failing to pass now.

and the courts entertain that idea, because that stems from pre-internet laws. You can't be surprised that laws are outdated by technology

[Ominous Gamer]

Soap/cispa is still attempting to be passed. Currently the backers think that it was temporarily poisoned by a false campaign via "netizens" and corporations who want to destroy the Internet.

The US is the last country that has any right to point out another countries' poorly thought out proposed laws. One only has to look at the insane shit we propose, and the serious shit we bury in committee. To suggest otherwise shows a high level of ignorance for how our own government works.

I thought it odd enough that it appears dread is expressing his opinion on this latest proposal based on 2nd hand info. Since he is unable to provide a source in English. Unless he can read German, which I was unaware of. Takedown? It would tough to top the US' use of a takedown thanks to way the DMCA works.

[earthJoker]

In what ways? I focus on the German legal system because Germany is the only developed nation whose parliament habitually proposes laws that effectively outlaw common Internet technologies.

That's utter nonsense. There are many countries that do this and the US is one of it.