View Poll Results: Will the Supreme Court strike-down the Individual Mandate?

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  • Yes, they will strike down the mandate.

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Thread: Amerikan Politics- Affordable Care Act Supreme Court Ruling

  1. #31
    Fascinating, unexpected and depressing.

    What is unexpected is that a conservative-leaning justice provided the tie-breaking vote. It's fascinating that he upheld the law with the reasoning that the individual mandate is a tax -- which is an argument the Obama administration explicitly argued was not true.

    Of course, it's depressing too. Not just because this represents a nudge towards socialistic crony-capitalism, but because I can't help but think that the left-wing and media assault on the Supreme Court seems to have worked.

    The Chief Justice, concerned with the perception of the court and his "legacy", might have subverted his principles on a case like this. He didn't want to be the Chief Justice who would be cited for being "partisan" and re-opening how we understand the Commerce Clause. He didn't want to be reviled by the left and the media (same thing?) forever for making the tough choice.

    There's support for this as experts and bloggers have begun dissecting the rulings. Key are slices of Scalia's dissent, which suggest his opinion was originally a concurring majority opinion. In other words, Scalia's opinion suggests that the Chief Justice changed his vote at the last minute.

    http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheor...itutional.html

    Evidence that the Votes Shifted After Conference (Initial Vote to Declare Mandate Unconstitutional)

    After a preliminary read of the opinions in the Health Care Cases (National Federation of Independent Business v. Sibelius), there seems to be substantial evidence that the initial vote in conference was to strike down the mandate as unconstitutional. The opinion of Justice Scalia, Kennedy, Thomas, and Alito looks like parts of it were once a majority opinion. And there are passages that still read as a majority opinion responding to a dissent by Justice Ginsburg. For example:

    The dissent claims that we “fai[l] to explain why the individual mandate threatens our constitutional order.” Ante, at 35. But we have done so. It threatens that order because it gives such an expansive meaning to the Commerce Clause that all private conduct (including failure to act) becomes subject to federal control, effectively destroying the Constitution’s division of governmental powers. Thus the dissent, on the theories proposed for the validity of the Mandate, would alter the accepted constitutional relation between the individual and the National Government.
    Language like this is highly suggestive of a majority opinion. The reference to the dissent and "we" strongly suggests that the "we" was a majority of the Court. This suggests that Justice Roberts switched his vote. There are other conceiveable explanations, but in my opinion, this evidence is very strong indeed.
    Nonetheless, as I have said before, the left won't like the precedent established today. They won't like it when right-wing politicians start passing bills forcing people to buy private stocks or mutual funds in place of pensions. They won't like it when right-wing politicians propose taxing people who haven't had children to pay for daycare for those who do. They won't like it when this is turned on its head in ways that haven't been conceived-of.

    A sad day for the republic. The only bright side is we can now start acknowledging that Obamacare is, at the least, a massive tax and spend program.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    What's fascinating is that Kennedy didn't buy it (I didn't either) and voted against it... but Roberts essentially decided that even if the gov't had a bunk case, the underlying law was essentially a tax, which is fine constitutionally. I never thought Roberts would go there (especially for a 5-4 decision), but he did. I'm not the biggest fan of PPACA, but I applaud Roberts for making what he clearly think is a principled decision even if he may personally dislike the law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    The Chief Justice, concerned with the perception of the court and his "legacy", might have subverted his principles on a case like this. He didn't want to be the Chief Justice who would be cited for being "partisan" and re-opening how we understand the Commerce Clause. He didn't want to be reviled by the left and the media (same thing?) forever for making the tough choice.
    I like the contrast here

    By the way, considering how incredibly divided the American people seem to be on this issue, I doubt he changed his mind because of public opinion Sounds a little far-fetched, to me. And the media? IIRC CNN predicted it would be turned down completely, FOX of course agrees, so there's already a decent chunk of the media he obviously did not bend over for.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    So, when will the Fed require that you buy disability insurance? (AFLACK!)
    Uh, it's called Social Security Disability Insurance, and it's funded through mandatory payroll taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    The Chief Justice, concerned with the perception of the court and his "legacy", might have subverted his principles on a case like this. He didn't want to be the Chief Justice who would be cited for being "partisan" and re-opening how we understand the Commerce Clause. He didn't want to be reviled by the left and the media (same thing?) forever for making the tough choice.

    There's support for this as experts and bloggers have begun dissecting the rulings. Key are slices of Scalia's dissent, which suggest his opinion was originally a concurring majority opinion. In other words, Scalia's opinion suggests that the Chief Justice changed his vote at the last minute.
    I find it highly unlikely that Roberts changed his vote because of some concern about his legacy (after all, doesn't this cement his 'legacy' as a turncoat conservative?). I think he genuinely believed this was a tax (forget the politicking of the White House) and that there was no constitutional problem thereof. Just because the dissent may have been originally written as a majority opinion doesn't mean Roberts was worried about his legacy - it means he was on the fence and eventually decided one way. We can't ascribe motivation to his choice.

    I think that the Obama administration would have had a much stronger case had they written the PPACA slightly differently to change how the mandate works. The end result would have been identical (or nearly so), but the language would have been different, which makes all the difference. Fundamentally, Roberts was recognizing this reality and ruling according to his legal understanding of the law, not the rhetoric put forth by the administration. I think in that context his actions were appropriate.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Uh, it's called Social Security Disability Insurance, and it's funded through mandatory payroll taxes.
    The difference here is that people are being forced to buy a private product. Then again, we already pay for publicly-financed sports stadiums.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The difference here is that people are being forced to buy a private product. Then again, we already pay for publicly-financed sports stadiums.
    Clearly the solution is to have a gov't run insurance provider to compete with private insurers.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Fascinating, unexpected and depressing.

    What is unexpected is that a conservative-leaning justice provided the tie-breaking vote.
    I'm not in the least bit surprised. I didn't know if the decision today was going to be 6/3 in favor, 5/4 in favor, or 5/4 opposed but I always thought Roberts was going to end up supporting the law. It's not out of keeping with his jurisprudence. I feel like people keep conflating Robert's and Rehnquist's judicial opinions.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  7. #37
    As a driver I am by law required here to have a minimum of Third Party insurance. Driving without insurance is (quite rightly) a criminal offence. Is it the same Stateside?

    I appreciate there's a difference between a law that only requires insurance for those doing a specific, regulated action (driving) on public roads ... And one requiring it for presumably everyone alive? Seems closest equivalent though.

    Impressed with Roberts. Rejecting the governments case but maintaining a law he probably doesn't personally like anyway with his own logic. Classy jurisprudence there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Clearly the solution is to have a gov't run insurance provider to compete with private insurers.
    Or just have the government ban private enterprise!
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Fascinating, unexpected and depressing.

    What is unexpected is that a conservative-leaning justice provided the tie-breaking vote. It's fascinating that he upheld the law with the reasoning that the individual mandate is a tax -- which is an argument the Obama administration explicitly argued was not true.

    Of course, it's depressing too. Not just because this represents a nudge towards socialistic crony-capitalism, but because I can't help but think that the left-wing and media assault on the Supreme Court seems to have worked.

    The Chief Justice, concerned with the perception of the court and his "legacy", might have subverted his principles on a case like this. He didn't want to be the Chief Justice who would be cited for being "partisan" and re-opening how we understand the Commerce Clause. He didn't want to be reviled by the left and the media (same thing?) forever for making the tough choice.

    There's support for this as experts and bloggers have begun dissecting the rulings. Key are slices of Scalia's dissent, which suggest his opinion was originally a concurring majority opinion. In other words, Scalia's opinion suggests that the Chief Justice changed his vote at the last minute.



    Nonetheless, as I have said before, the left won't like the precedent established today. They won't like it when right-wing politicians start passing bills forcing people to buy private stocks or mutual funds in place of pensions. They won't like it when right-wing politicians propose taxing people who haven't had children to pay for daycare for those who do. They won't like it when this is turned on its head in ways that haven't been conceived-of.

    A sad day for the republic. The only bright side is we can now start acknowledging that Obamacare is, at the least, a massive tax and spend program.
    After looking over the ruling I can understand Roberts point of view. Basically the government has the right to tax. Obama didn't call it a tax but it was a tax. So if I decide to tax everyone who makes over 100k that's fine. If I decide to tax everyone who chooses to own a car, that's fine - at least from a constitutional standpoint. The health care "fine" is not difference, its a tax levied on behavior the government wants to curtail - which is done ALL the time. One could make the argument that the government shouldn't try to influence behavior and that it goes beyond the guidelines of what the federal government should do... but if you agree that the government can tax you for any reason then Roberts decision made sense.

    I dislike the law but it seems like the Chief Justice is making his choice based on the constitution not his personal politics.

  10. #40
    Well said Lewk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    As a driver I am by law required here to have a minimum of Third Party insurance. Driving without insurance is (quite rightly) a criminal offence. Is it the same Stateside?

    I appreciate there's a difference between a law that only requires insurance for those doing a specific, regulated action (driving) on public roads ... And one requiring it for presumably everyone alive? Seems closest equivalent though.

    Impressed with Roberts. Rejecting the governments case but maintaining a law he probably doesn't personally like anyway with his own logic. Classy jurisprudence there.
    You're required to have auto insurance or prove financial capacity (at least in Texas). The analogy is flawed for a few reasons but I agree Roberts acted appropriately.

  12. #42
    Indeed I acknowledged the flaw while posting it - but it's the closest equivalent I can think of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    If it's not mandated, no-one will buy insurance. Then they can't pay their medical bills when they need it, and end up being bailed out by the government anyway. Therefore the mandate is the only way this can work.

    This already happens by the way, amusingly one of the original plaintiffs in this case who did not want to buy insurance, ended up bankrupt on relatively low medical bills (~10.000$, IIRC), showing this point exactly. Because guess who paid the medical bills in the end?
    Exactly. Those who whine that it's a tax, fine, or fee....don't seem to realize their private premiums and public taxes include paying for the uninsured. We're all paying hidden taxes that way, so it's a distinction without a difference.

    What's yet to be seen is how that fine will be collected. The bill excludes garnishing wages, putting liens on property, or pressing criminal charges against those who don't buy insurance OR pay the fine/tax. It's also kind of weird that they ruled on a tax not-yet collected. I thought there were restrictions on that.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    ...Of course, it's depressing too. Not just because this represents a nudge towards socialistic crony-capitalism...
    Seriously? You don't think our healthcare has been dominated by crony-capitalism since the private Insurance Industry got an employer-mandate?

    Nonetheless, as I have said before, the left won't like the precedent established today. They won't like it when right-wing politicians start passing bills forcing people to buy private stocks or mutual funds in place of pensions. They won't like it when right-wing politicians propose taxing people who haven't had children to pay for daycare for those who do. They won't like it when this is turned on its head in ways that haven't been conceived-of.
    Uhm, the right wing already wanted to turn SS over to private market investing, remember? Payroll taxes already fund SS 'pensions', and most private companies stopped offering defined pension plans. Those who don't have children already fund public education, because those kids grow up to be their doctors, nurses, lawyers, plumbers, legislators, etc.

    A sad day for the republic. The only bright side is we can now start acknowledging that Obamacare is, at the least, a massive tax and spend program.
    Dude, lay off the Kool-Aid. What's "sad" is that our Republic has been twisting itself into pretzels for decades, trying to avoid tackling Healthcare. Deluding ourselves that "the private insurance industry" should/could be the arbiter, administrator, payor, quality and cost controller....that somehow health/medicine is a privilege, and vastly different from Public Education as a Public Good.

    What's "sad" is that our patchwork system is divided into:

    Veterans Health Administration
    Government Employee and Congressional Programs
    Childrens' Health (S-CHIP)
    Student Health (tax subsidized school clinics)
    Elder Care (Medicare)
    Care for the Poor or indigent (Medicaid)
    High Cost Individuals (Medicaid)
    Disabled or Long Term Care (SS Disability)
    Employer-subsidized Group Insurance (with tax incentives)
    Self-Insured
    Self-pay
    Uninsured


    At this point, we'd do better to scrap the whole thing and start over.

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    One could make the argument that the government shouldn't try to influence behavior ...
    You can make a much better argument that more or less everything the government does involves influencing behavior.
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  16. #46
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    One could make the argument that the government shouldn't try to influence behavior
    Right. And your calls for steeper fines and harsher punishments for crimes? That's not influencing behaviour, or what?
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  17. #47
    Front page of the local paper

    Quote Originally Posted by TBT
    SICK AND TIRED
    The title of Buzzfeed's new aggregation of tweets sums up neatly the sophistication of much of the health-care debate: 'People Who Say They're Moving To Canada Because Of ObamaCare.'' Among the tweets Thursday:

    Casey W@kclovesya: 'I'm moving to Canada. Obviously the United States doesn't know what they are doing anymore. This used to be a great country... Pretty sad.''

    Walter Weldon@wallyweldon: 'I'm moving to Canada, the United States is entirely too socialist.'' (A Canadian chimed in: 'LOL at all the tweets ... There's something you should know about us.'') In 1912, Norway became the first country to provide national health care. One hundred years later, of the 33 de*veloped countries in our world, we are the only one not to have decided that health care is a birthright for all citizens - except for those over 65, of course.

    The Supreme Court's approval Thursday of Obamacare is a victory for common sense, but we are left with a deeply flawed health system. Those with insurance will still have to find their way through a frustrating maze of paperwork and rules, and the exorbitant cost of care is unchecked.

    The fight for Obamacare was bruising. If only it had been for the sort of single-payer plan Barack Obama championed before he moved to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. We suspect it will be a long wait now for any president to risk that fight.

    - The Editors
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  18. #48
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    WTF, why would people move to Canada
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    You can make a much better argument that more or less everything the government does involves influencing behavior.
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Right. And your calls for steeper fines and harsher punishments for crimes? That's not influencing behaviour, or what?
    Come on guys, reading comprehension. He said "one could" make that argument, but he did not make it and ended up agreeing with Roberts's judgement.

    Credit where credits due, given how some loonybin republicans [and Dread, no offence] are decrying this its good to see Lewk standing up and agreeing with the judgement yet you just see his name and go off on one.

    How often do people cry "I'm moving to Canada"? Normally its Democrats though, not sure if people threatening to move to Canada as the US is getting too socialist is meant to be tongue-in-cheek or what? Shouldn't half the Baldwins be there already since Bush was re-elected?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #50
    Employers and insurance companies have been gearing up for this all along. We had a pretty good insurance plan, with a slightly high premium, but basically covered all preventative care with only a small co-pay. This year my husband's employer switched to a plan with a slightly lower premium (not that much lower than the previous) but instead of co-pays we have to pay a percentage out of pocket. Between the three of us going for regular checkups, it has cost us much more money out of pocket than ever before. I guess that is the point though: that families should be paying more than those who are single or don't use preventative care. Still, not a very good deal considering the lower premium isn't much. I'd have rather paid the higher premium. But, from what it sounds like the older plan would have skyrocketed in cost, something the employer wasn't willing to subsidize to keep our rates the same. So, we get a crappy plan instead.

    Hoping that maybe insurance will be cheaper soon, but not holding my breath. I see it getting higher in the near future, until there is a "bubble burst". Just have to ride it out and hope we all stay well. Sick of paying $70-$100 for a visit, just to get our weight checked, blood pressure done, a pat on the back 5-minute talk with the doc, and a prescription refill note. On top of the premium we already pay bi-monthly. Before I only had a $20 co-pay. So much for encouraging preventative care.

    Insurance is such a crock of shit. Don't know why the government chose this route. Maybe things will get better; I'm certainly hoping so.

    I also worry that we have a doctor shortage as it is. In my area, it seems a lot of doctors are imported from other countries just to keep up with the demand for OBs, general practice med, etc. And the wait times to get in to see a doc (unless you go to an urgent care) are pretty long. We're gonna need a serious influx of family medicine doctors to help with this transition.

    I know I sound like I'm complaining but I do want this to work. I just hope that everyone can pull together and make it happen. As long as there is a good plan to deal with the influx of patients into general practice offices, it will be a good thing.

  21. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    WTF, why would people move to Canada
    These people think being bandwagon stupid is good.
    I'm wondering how quiet Oreilly is going to be on this. He made a rather famous promise to apologize on the air for being an idiot if the healthcare law was upheld. The dumbass also said he would move to Costa Rica, but we're still waiting
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 06-29-2012 at 10:14 PM.
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  22. #52
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catgrrl View Post
    Employers and insurance companies have been gearing up for this all along. We had a pretty good insurance plan, with a slightly high premium, but basically covered all preventative care with only a small co-pay. This year my husband's employer switched to a plan with a slightly lower premium (not that much lower than the previous) but instead of co-pays we have to pay a percentage out of pocket. Between the three of us going for regular checkups, it has cost us much more money out of pocket than ever before. I guess that is the point though: that families should be paying more than those who are single or don't use preventative care. Still, not a very good deal considering the lower premium isn't much. I'd have rather paid the higher premium. But, from what it sounds like the older plan would have skyrocketed in cost, something the employer wasn't willing to subsidize to keep our rates the same. So, we get a crappy plan instead.
    I thought part of Obamacare was that more preventative measures were to be covered and co-pay limited? Might be wrong, and it might not be implemented yet.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Right. And your calls for steeper fines and harsher punishments for crimes? That's not influencing behaviour, or what?
    Oh you finally admit that deterrence influence behavior? I think its pretty obvious that I'm talking about legal (or things that should be legal). Ie its not governments job to try to encourage you to vote, to encourage you to drive certain vehicles, or eat your veggies, or get health insurance, or play the lottery. It certaintly is and should be the job of the government to encourage you not to murder your neighbor.

  24. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    WTF, why would people move to Canada
    One wonders since they have an even more socialist system then even Obamacare.

  25. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    These people think being bandwagon stupid is good.
    I'm wondering how quiet Oreilly is going to be on this. He made a rather famous promise to apologize on the air for being an idiot if the healthcare law was upheld. The dumbass also said he would move to Costa Rica, but we're still waiting
    You realise that O'Reilly was right about the constitutionality of this w.r.t. the Commerce Clause and didn't think (like the Federal government argued) that it was a tax, the Administration had specifically said it wasn't a tax. Only by labelling it a tax (which interestingly his guest did too) was Roberts able to make it constitutional. Will Obama apologise for saying that this is not a tax?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I thought part of Obamacare was that more preventative measures were to be covered and co-pay limited? Might be wrong, and it might not be implemented yet.
    I certainly hope you are right. I admit to not knowing if this is part of the healthcare law. I do miss my co-pays; I am a person who likes to know how much I owe and when. I do not like getting random bills in the mail here and there for our doctor visits; always varying in price despite the fact that the same procedure is done for every checkup/follow up visit I have.

  27. #57
    I'm with you, Cat. Insurance is a crock...at least the US insurance industry. Seems Obomney Care was created to build on the private insurance model because the industry has so much political clout, and huge market share in healthcare. Anything else would have been branded as SOCIALIST, anti-free enterprise, a government takeover, etc. Rolling it into existing insurance made the industry happy, could be touted as a "job creator" attracting more insurers/employers (to the state of MASS) to deal with all the newly insured, and competition would bring costs down.

    Only a few things in the bill are in effect now, others aren't due to kick in until 2014. Your husband's employer likely changed plans to save money, regardless of the ACA, since costs continue to go up 10-20% every year. They probably match your premiums (employer subsidy) so the lower the better, especially if most employees are young/single/healthy and don't use much healthcare. Sounds like your new plan does "balance billing" instead of accepting co-pays as 100% reimbursement. That's a glitch between employer HR and the insurance contract. The other option would be full payment at time of visit, and you do the paperwork to get reimbursed by the insurer.

    The preventative part is confusing....but I think it's supposed to cover one physical exam per year, some tests (mammograms, PAPs, some blood work, an EKG over age X, vaccinations, that kind of thing.) I've heard that's already in effect for Medicare folks, without a co-pay, and costs are wrapped into the overall program. It's as clear as mud how that would change policies (like mine) that are only major-medical inpatient catastrophic coverage. My doctor has changed his billing policies, to accommodate the growing number of patients with crappy insurance (or no insurance for office visits). He now charges a flat fee of $50 for a 20 minute visit, and that includes simple on-site lab tests (urinalysis, finger prick blood tests), a 12-lead EKG, injections, sutures, wound I & D, sample meds, etc. No more pesky ICD coding, messing with paperwork and billing mazes...it works really well. He's also totally computerized now, including notations and medical records.

    Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how these insurance exchanges will work, and what happens when certain states say they'll refuse to participate. They sound like a good idea, but should be up and running first --- before people start changing plans and getting more confused. My hunch is that millions of people are going to try and max out their policy benefits and copays between now and the next enrollment periods. And you're right: we don't have enough GPs or OB/GYNs or family practices to meet the demand.

  28. #58
    I'm a bit confused by the right-wing complaints about the SCOTUS ruling. Especially the Tea Party supporters who pledge allegiance to the Constitution (and presumably the judiciary). They seem to be mad that a 'conservative' judge, appointed by a 'conservative president' didn't vote according to 'conservative politics'. Shouldn't they be relieved that the judiciary isn't a puppet of politics....and can't be used to subvert the legislature?


    I was stunned to hear Rand Paul's opinion that (paraphrased) "Just because a couple of people in DC decide something is Constitutional, doesn't mean it is." Some of these "patriot" groups are still claiming the ACA is unconstitutional, basically nullifying SCOTUS. At the same time, (R) leaders like McConnell are busy calling Obama a "liar" about it not being a TAX....while other (R) are glad it's called a TAX, because they signed an oath to Nordquist not to raise or create any TAX.

    Poor Romney. Nowhere to hide from Obomney Care, the origins coming from right-wing conservative (R) constructs, touted since the 90's, and supported by the Heritage Foundation.....to weed out the Free Riders, get rid of the hidden TAX on everyone else, to encourage self-responsibility, use 'market-based' private insurance products....with individual mandates and TAX penalty Fees as incentives/enforcement.


  29. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post

    I was stunned to hear Rand Paul's opinion that (paraphrased) "Just because a couple of people in DC decide something is Constitutional, doesn't mean it is." Some of these "patriot" groups are still claiming the ACA is unconstitutional, basically nullifying SCOTUS. At the same time, (R) leaders like McConnell are busy calling Obama a "liar" about it not being a TAX....while other (R) are glad it's called a TAX, because they signed an oath to Nordquist not to raise or create any TAX.
    Different people can have different view points. If the Supreme Court said that all the amendments can be thrown out because they felt like it... does that make it constitutional? Rand Paul is fine with having the opinion that the SC got it wrong and that just because they rule on something doesn't mean that it is actual reality. He's not saying overthrow the court he's just saying that being constitutional or unconstitutional is an objective concept that sometimes is ignored by the court.

    And Obama is a liar - this is a tax. And its a "pledge" a good one at that too. I'd love if we could cap taxation to a portion of GDP via constitutional amendment. In the future based on all the liberal crying and acceptance of socialization we see int he world today its almost certain taxes will go up in the future. If we could get an amendment that caps it at even 50% higher than we currently have it, it will tie the hands of future generations for the foreseeable future.

  30. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    And Obama is a liar - this is a tax. And its a "pledge" a good one at that too. I'd love if we could cap taxation to a portion of GDP via constitutional amendment. In the future based on all the liberal crying and acceptance of socialization we see int he world today its almost certain taxes will go up in the future. If we could get an amendment that caps it at even 50% higher than we currently have it, it will tie the hands of future generations for the foreseeable future.
    Be careful what you wish for, some would see that as a target and not a limit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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