Should those who don't work be able to afford booze and fags?

[Ominous Gamer]

From what I've heard, the threshold is pretty damn high. If the child is sick and their parents can't afford to see a doctor, they should go to the school nurse and prove that the illness exists. Most other excuses aren't worth the paper they're written on.

The threshold I've seen isn't all that high. Family I know got hit for 8 call outs in a quarter. Thats less than 1 a week.
Attending the school nurse is also a horrible idea. Besides containmenting the school (especially the main office where most are located and pulling multiple duties), most nurses aren't qualified in a wide range of reasons for a student missing school. But there you go again with "most" as if you have some sort of factual claim for how many absences are and aren't legitament.

[Steely Glint]

If you're poor, it's at least partially your fault. If you're rich and weren't born into the money, it's at least partially because you're "awesome". The higher the probability of you obtaining success in a given background, the more if it your fault if you fail to obtain that success.

And what does this imply about policy?

[Loki]

The threshold I've seen isn't all that high. Family I know got hit for 8 call outs in a quarter. Thats less than 1 a week.
Attending the school nurse is also a horrible idea. Besides containmenting the school (especially the main office where most are located and pulling multiple duties), most nurses aren't qualified in a wide range of reasons for a student missing school. But there you go again with "most" as if you have some sort of factual claim for how many absences are and aren't legitament.

I might be missing something here, but how is 8 absences less than a week? Missing one week in a quarter seems like quite a lot to me anyway. Unless someone has some kind of a chronic illness, I fail to see why they should miss school more than a handful times in an entire year.

Ok, how do you suggest that schools verify that a child is sick? What's to stop useless parents from letting their children stay at home and then claim they were sick?

[Ominous Gamer]

Thats less than 1 a week.

I might be missing something here, but how is 8 absences less than a week? ?

9 weeks in a quarter. 9 > 8

[Illusions]

Yes absolutely it's an uneven exchange. Despite the fact that the governments already blown your dollar on interest, the military, education, police etc they also have to pay someone to give you that dollar so where's all that extra coming from? The taxes of those who are contributing to society.

So if someone pays into unemployment one day, and collects unemployment in the future, its an uneven exchange. Got it.

Do you class police services paid for via tax money as a more even exchange than unemployment paid for via tax money?

[Loki]

9 weeks in a quarter. 9 > 8

I still don't get your point. Was this person absent 8 times? You think 8 times in 9 weeks is ok?

[Khendraja'aro]

If you're poor, it's at least partially your fault. If you're rich and weren't born into the money, it's at least partially because you're "awesome". The higher the probability of you obtaining success in a given background, the more if it your fault if you fail to obtain that success.

Wait, and here I was thinking that something like "luck" does not exist? Why are you talking about probabilities now?

[Ominous Gamer]

You think 8 times in 9 weeks is ok?

I'm saying 8 times is not a high threshold for the government to get involved. Which was the claim from you I was countering.

[Loki]

I'm saying 8 times is not a high threshold for the government to get involved. Which was the claim from you I was countering.

How is 8 absences a quarter not a high threshold? That's cutting school nearly once a week.

[GGT]

Great. Another poverty-related thread that turns into rants about those stupid, useless, lazy, parasitic welfare suckers.

Never mind the differences between nations, policies, what's considered "poverty" or even "welfare". It's usually framed in terms of self-reliance and effort...WORK and employment...as if it's always a choice to not work. Or a distinct choice to have children that can't be fed. And anyone getting gummit assistance is somehow abusing the safety net so they can drink booze and smoke cigarettes.

Where the hell did this perverse attitude come from? The UK may have overly generous welfare programs, but that doesn't mean every nation does. There was a NYT article about poverty in the Philippines, related to birth control, religion and politics. Too many poor women having too many babies, stressing the hospitals and safety nets. It didn't focus too much on the men/fathers....or the pathetic and limited JOB prospects.

News Flash: this is going to be a hot topic for at least a decade, if not longer. The entire global economy is slowing, JOBS are evolving to reflect polar opposites of haves/have-nots -- almost like a centrifuge spinning. With a rapidly shrinking middle. Everywhere.

[Ominous Gamer]

How is 8 absences a quarter not a high threshold? That's cutting school nearly once a week.

I consider a high threshold something that would amount to missing more than 1 day a week. Quality teachers and lesson plans break learning into segments, usually a week, with lots of repetition. Missing less than a day a week, alone, wouldn't create some sort of insurmountable barrier to the student learning what the rest of the class is learning. So no, I don't think looking at 8 absences, completely out of context, is to high a threshold for the government to get involved.

Didn't we have a discussion already of the AP/Honors student from texas who was sent to jail for missing what they considered to much school because she needed to take care of her sisters? That was 10 days in 6 months, context be damned.

[Asmodian]

How is 8 absences a quarter not a high threshold? That's cutting school nearly once a week.

Why is the number of absences even a criteria by itself, I would look at it only if the student was performing poorly in his subjects as a possible explanation. If the student enjoys academic success and is absent 2 weeks in eight what does it matter? During my university I consistently skipped the first week as well as the week before the final exams, because frankly the first course is wasted with introductions to people that you already know after the freshman year and repeat of the material that should be common sense and the week before the exam is a review of things you have already understood and therefore do not need to remember by heart. Granted University you are supposed to be mature enough to make your own decisions. Still I skipped most of my math classes at school when I moved away from Russia, because things being taught in them were no just stuff I already knew but sometimes was downright harmful (I still remember my surprise when coming to UK that trying different numbers to solve equations with 2 unknowns was actually considered not only a valid method but was taught in the classroom).

[Loki]

I consider a high threshold something that would amount to missing more than 1 day a week. Quality teachers and lesson plans break learning into segments, usually a week, with lots of repetition. Missing less than a day a week, alone, wouldn't create some sort of insurmountable barrier to the student learning what the rest of the class is learning. So no, I don't think looking at 8 absences, completely out of context, is to high a threshold for the government to get involved.

Didn't we have a discussion already of the AP/Honors student from texas who was sent to jail for missing what they considered to much school because she needed to take care of her sisters? That was 10 days in 6 months, context be damned.

I don't think a single sane teacher who works with at-risk students would agree with you.

[Ominous Gamer]

I don't think

this much is obvious by this point.

I do hope you understand that I don't consider it acceptable for students to miss a lot of school, but I don't think missing less than a day a week (again, basing this solely on attendance) should involve pulling the parents, or the student, into a courtroom or comparable review process.

[Loki]

this much is obvious by this point.

I do hope you understand that I don't consider it acceptable for students to miss a lot of school, but I don't think missing less than a day a week (again, basing this solely on attendance) should involve pulling the parents, or the student, into a courtroom or comparable review process.

And again, attendance is the one thing that parents have great control over. At-risk students have enough trouble learning when they're present. Missing a class nearly once a week is a recipe for disaster. Sure, if someone is smart, self-motivated, and likes the material, they can easily catch up, but these aren't the people we're talking about.

[Ominous Gamer]

And again, attendance is the one thing that parents have great control over.

Outside of elementary school, I don't agree with this. If anything this is one of the areas parents have the weakest control. This is why there are so many processes in place now to track students. From the RFID badges you already complained about, to automated systems attempting to phone home when a student doesn't show up at school.

Homework is something that parents should have "great control over"

At-risk students have enough trouble learning when they're present. Missing a class nearly once a week is a recipe for disaster. Sure, if someone is smart, self-motivated, and likes the material, they can easily catch up, but these aren't the people we're talking about.

And you're basing the concept that at-risk students have trouble learning based solely on the idea that the parents recieve welfare. That somehow these students can't be smart, self-motivated, or interested in anything, because of the sins of their parents?

[RandBlade]

9 weeks in a quarter. 9 > 8

WTF who's sick 20% of the time? Unless there's some sort of extreme illness (cancer etc) which obviously is different and known about to be sick once a week is a hell of a lot not a little

If a child is sick 20% of the time then that seems like a very high threshold for a red flag and investigating. Even 3-4 times a quarter (more than once a month) I'd start to wonder to to be double that seems very relaxed.

[Flixy]

Is an absence an entire day or one hour?

[Ominous Gamer]

Is an absence an entire day or one hour?

lower grades generally don't count an hour as absent. Lunchtime seems to be the general break point. Higher grades (when they start switching rooms and teachers when switching subject matter) base attendance on if you make it to whats called homeroom, which generally only last for about 15-30 minutes, and is usually held the 2nd hour of the day.

not a little

no one made this claim.
and it rounds to 18% this is after all only 45 days we are counting. 20% would be a day a week.

[Wraith]

And you're basing the concept that at-risk students have trouble learning based solely on the idea that the parents recieve welfare. That somehow these students can't be smart, self-motivated, or interested in anything, because of the sins of their parents?

Wouldn't he actually be basing the idea that at-risk students have trouble learning on the point that they're at-risk, which by definition means they're in danger of failing out? The reasons these students might be having trouble learning could be anything, but the fact remains that they're not learning enough to keep up with what they're expected to know.

"At risk" as I've always heard it defined refers to academic performance, not socioeconomic status. Socioeconomic factors are strong influencers of at-risk status, but they don't define it.

[Ominous Gamer]

I was assuming he hadn't moved the goal posts from what he stated in reply 22. If I missed when he switched from using attendance as a stipulation for benefits to attendance being important for students doing poor academically then my bad. That is why I posted that comment, to see if he was trying to shift the conversation, or if he was confusing financial standing with learning ability.

[RandBlade]

Give one good reason why a pupil should be expected to miss a day a week of school?

[Ominous Gamer]

I'm curious why you're asking for examples for a stance I didn't take

[RandBlade]

Yes you are. You pointed out Georgia as an example, Loki said he thought the threshold was high. You cried that it wasn't high, "not even one day a week".

Please explain why someone should be expected (barring special circumstances) to be sick a full day a week every week?

Or do you agree that at virtually a day a week the threshold is high? I'd say very, very high personally.

[Ominous Gamer]

I pointed out that Georgia's bar for court intervention isnt that high. 8 in a quarter. I also gave Texas' 10 days in 6 months, which is even lower.
I did not at any point suggest it was appropriate, or expected, for a student to miss 8 days in 9 weeks (or 10 days in 6 months) In fact, I already stated this above.

Whats with this black and white good attendance vs court appearance threshold There are processes that schools are allowed, and should be expected, to take before forcing a family, or student, to be dragged through the court system. You think more than once a month is to much. Do you honest expect a school to harass a family because their child missed a day of school, so they don't allow it to happen again within 4 weeks?

[Loki]

If the family is given money by the government to take care of that child, I fail to see why the family can't be expected to do something as simple as ensuring that the child shows up to class every single day. Allowing one unexcused absence a month seems about reasonable to me.

I also want to know where you're getting the idea that someone who's not incredibly bright, self-motivated, and comes from a great environment can miss school nearly once a week and not fall behind.

[Ominous Gamer]

If the family is given money by the government to take care of that child, I fail to see why the family can't be expected to do something as simple as ensuring that the child shows up to class every single day. Allowing one unexcused absence a month seems about reasonable to me.

Because every single day is a risk to other students, and the teachers. Because, as stated above, attendance is largely out of the parents hands in higher grades. Especially in low income families that rely on public transportation, and generally work longer than school hours.

You've also expressed doubts about what would count as an excusable absence. Guess thats why I've mentioned previously how the courts look at absences without context.

I also want to know where you're getting the idea that someone who's not incredibly bright, self-motivated, and comes from a great environment can miss school nearly once a week and not fall behind.

Nothing I've posted so far comes anywhere close to this. Only you, and your special brand of comprehension can come to this conclusion. I've taken care to specifically mention that we are looking at absences and absences alone. Since there are simply to many riders that could be thrown into the mix, and should alter how the student is handled at all levels.
Im curious why you so focused on only the students that are poor, not bright, and not self-motivated; as if its some sort of assumed majority.

[Illusions]

Motion to change the thread title from:

Should those who don't work be able to afford booze and fags?

To:

Should those who don't work be able to afford booze and fags, but also how many absences from school is too many?

[RandBlade]

Because every single day is a risk to other students, and the teachers. Because, as stated above, attendance is largely out of the parents hands in higher grades. Especially in low income families that rely on public transportation, and generally work longer than school hours.

You've also expressed doubts about what would count as an excusable absence. Guess thats why I've mentioned previously how the courts look at absences without context.

How is attendance outside of parents hands?

Besides illness what counts as a reasonable reason for a child to be absent in your eyes?

Only you, and your special brand of comprehension can come to this conclusion. I've taken care to specifically mention that we are looking at absences and absences alone. Since there are simply to many riders that could be thrown into the mix, and should alter how the student is handled at all levels.
Im curious why you so focused on only the students that are poor, not bright, and not self-motivated; as if its some sort of assumed majority.

Only you brought up the notion that once a week absences were reasonable, though you now appear to be backpedalling as fast as you can.

[Ominous Gamer]

How is attendance outside of parents hands?

Are you telling me you never had or heard of a friend skipping a period, or day of class without the parents knowing? Many parents, especially low income parents, use the school's busing system. At best the parents know the student got on the bus. They don't know if the student went from the bus to his classroom, or if he stayed for all his classes.
This is why some schools are using RFID badges on students, and why some schools call parents when their children are counted absent.

Only you brought up the notion that once a week absences were reasonable, though you now appear to be backpedalling as fast as you can.

My position hasn't changed at all, and you're doing a bang up job of not correctly representing my position in the slightest. I have not once mentioned that missing school once a week is reasonable. i have mentioned that missing class 8 times out of 9 weeks is a valid threshold for the court system to get involved. How is it not dishonest of you to suggest that I'm saying 9 days out of 9 weeks is reasonable, when I clearly support going as high as the court system once a student misses 8 days in 9 weeks