Fair market value is not price gouging.Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
Fair market value is not price gouging.
Are you back pedaling on your earlier claims then, or ignoring the conversation this thread already had on distortions?
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Fair market value includes distortions. Price fixing leads to rationing and shortages. Not price fixing leads to higher costs for buyers but addresses the supply side lowering shortages. Since liberals hate the concept of people with more money getting something that folks with less money also want they hate the concept. Make everyone stay in line, make everyone be put in the same boat in a crisis situation even if it makes the crisis situation worse.
It is if by "good" we mean that people who value a good the most are able to obtain that good without any unnecessary deadweight loss. If the government truly thought that poor people would no longer be able to afford gas, the response that would cause the least distortions would be for the government to send a check to poor people. Problem solved. Of course that would be too rational.
Hope is the denial of reality
Oh come on you know they'd spend that free money on drugs, booze, smokes and lottery tickets and it'd just raise the price of gas even further. Gas stamps, that's where it's at.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
It's not an 'even exchange' during a DISASTER, when buying isn't really a choice but necessity, and there's only one seller with one (doubled) price. A family without potable water (or electricity to pump a well, or fuel to boil grey water) still needs water to stay alive. Being "forced" to buy at gouge-rates exploits peoples' desperations, and staying alive, during DISASTER. (btw, it's not "my" system)
But no one is saying relief organizations provide 100% of ALL GOODS, and we're not talking about a shortage of gummi bears.
The "shortage" is electricity, caused by Sandy. Long Island Power Authority especially. There's plenty of fuel but refineries can't pump and transfer to gas stations. Some stations have fuel but can't pump it to customers. This has nothing to do with liberals or hating on people with money.
You think that if there was money to be made, people/firms wouldn't shift a massive amount of gas from neighboring states?
Hope is the denial of reality
The discussions should focus on the level of profits. Charging double for an item that's critical for everyday operations, simply because the victims have no other options, seems extreme during times of distress and disaster, but as been mentioned several times already, price fixing needs to take into account increased operational expenses.
and that's where Lewk gets confused, he considers a stance that sees the shortcomings of current (or more specifically previous) price fixing as an endorsement of price gouging.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Yeah, because even lower class Americans can't afford to spend $8 on a gallon of gas for a few weeks.
Hope is the denial of reality
Depends if it's 8 or 80 bucks, I suppose.
Gas, and food/water are pretty much essentials - it's not that crazy to treat it different from ordinary stuff.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
Yeah?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
The laws of economics apply to essentials as much as they do to other goods. Again, is your average poor American really not able to pay twice as much for food for a week or two? And if the concern is that they can't, the solution is for the government to send checks to the poor, not to impose price controls and rationing, which make the situation much worse.
A decent car gets 30 miles a gallon. Assuming 60 miles of driving a day (which is far more than what most New Yorkers do), they'd be spending an extra $8 a day on gas. Intolerable indeed.
Hope is the denial of reality
For you or me (I'm assuming), it wouldn't be a big deal, I agree. But 'lower class Americans' include people whose spare money per month amounts to 50 or 25 bucks. They do exist, is all I'm saying.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
They can cut back on McDonald's, cigarette, and lottery ticket purchases.
Hope is the denial of reality
I wish there was a like button on this forum sometimes.
They can not have their appendix burst, or not get mowed down by a drunk driver? In your universe, is poverty always a moral failing?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
And yet, with the increase in available fuel made possible by governmental decisions, and odd/even rationing, the gas lines are much shorter in certain areas now...to the point where there aren't any at some stations that have fuel...hmm...
. . .
Just pointing out the obvious fact that the average poor person spends a considerable portion of their income on the above. It's not a moral failing, but it does show that they have room to cut expenses.
Hope is the denial of reality
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...oning/1695215/
The problems take a few days to kick in (also, additional gas is being delivered since Friday).
I'm also amazed by your positive assessment of government efforts when the news are reporting the exact opposite...
Hope is the denial of reality
A person doesn't need much, the question is why must some be debased for others to be happy. The Theology of Wealth answers this, of course, but that answer is not very satisfactory.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Agreed, they likely can't. Not when a disaster knocks out most of a community, and access to cash or plastic processing is limited. $8 a gallon is pushing $100 a tank.
I also like how you assume the price of gas at the only operating station within a 50 mile radius should only be $8 instead of $40 or $80. That's price fixing
On top of that, I don't think its right that someone should be allowed to excessively profit from victims of a natural disaster. That's clear cut exploitation.
twice for gas, twice for food, for water, for shelter. If the poor could afford to randomly shell out twice the price for everything between paychecks, they wouldn't be poor. This is of course assuming the prices would only double under unchecked price gouging.
and how exactly would these people in the hardest hit areas receive these checks? and how long do you honestly think it would take to process getting these checks created and cashed in a disaster zone? If he government is cutting checks, whats to stop that from influencing prices? How many man hours are wasted on cash assistance that would be better sent on disaster relief?
and you're referring to current price controls, not the concept in its entirety.
The average for a US vehicle is a combined mpg closer to twenty. This obviously goes down as you encounter city driving.A decent car gets 30 miles a gallon. Assuming 60 miles of driving a day (which is far more than what most New Yorkers do), they'd be spending an extra $8 a day on gas. Intolerable indeed.
yes, because this is what is important to people currently without power, water or worse
Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 11-11-2012 at 09:47 PM.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
We've had it the 9th, 10th, and today the 11th. I'm pretty certain they've also taken into account the extra gas deliveries and gas supply when making this decision.
LIPA response has been terrible, however there seems to be widespread aid available, the election was particularly smooth given the circumstances, and they appear to be handling the gas situation particularly well. Also, is it the news itself thats reporting the exact opposite, or the news reporting on residents who are claiming the exact opposite? Because from the local news I've seen there has been a particularly mixed bag of people who have legitimate complaints, and those who lived in a particularly hard hit area who are upset that the government haven't turned their power back on when their home is severely damaged. I've watched a woman complain on television that her home still doesn't have electricity, and the government is doing nothing to help her (How is she supposed to stay warm, or get a hot meal?). There is a shelter and FEMA/Military unit in her area handing out supplies, it just seems that there is a certain group of people who are claiming the government isn't helping at all, because they aren't helping the very specific way they want help, or in a way that wouldn't cause them to lose face.I'm also amazed by your positive assessment of government efforts when the news are reporting the exact opposite...
. . .
It's okay though if they don't have spouses, kids, elderly parents
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
What's that got to do with supply/demand disruptions during a DISASTER that knocks out the electrical grid, causing the inability to pump gasoline (or diesel or kerosene)?
Out of curiosity, when an area is struck by a disaster, and has no power etc., a lot of business close right? What happens to employees? Do they still get paid? Can they still get paid, even? I imagine payments are also hampered. And I suppose people who get paid by the hour are in more trouble then (e.g. I have a zero hour contract, if there's no work, I don't work, and don't get paid a dime). I have of course never been in a disaster area, let alone one in the US, so I have no idea how that works.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
On the bright side, if they're not getting paid because they don't have to work, then they don't have to drive either!
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
For my county government, part timers get nothing if the location closes. Full timers get a full days wages if they show up to work that day before the closure is announced. Otherwise the hours are redistributed through the rest of the week; yeah late week storms have screwed a few people over. We can only expect to get paid during and after a disaster because, as government employees, we are the first wave of responders after the all clear.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Should people serve economics, or should economics serve humans? This hurricane showed that people are just discardable parts of economy. It makes Cuba and Venezuela look more civilized. Venezuela sent aid (449 tons of supplies and equipment) to the victims in Cuba. No billing, no market, no market laws.
Ayuda humanitaria de Venezuela llega a Cuba para damnificados de 'Sandy'
http://noticierostelevisa.esmas.com/...ficados-sandy/
Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.
Do whatever you want just don't put a gun to someone's head and make them do it.
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