It's not an assumption, it's a fact.Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
It's not an assumption, it's a fact.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
It would make a difference.
But we're a democratic republic.
What difference? Is a president's power derived from how many votes he gets (assuming he wins)? I must have missed that part of the Constitution.It would make a difference.
But we're a democratic republic.
That term is generic and meaningless.
Are you actually denying that urban areas are far more Democratic than non-urban areas?
Hope is the denial of reality
I don't disagree. I'm only saying that the Jan 1, 2013 deadline is artificial, driven by politics, not the deficit/debt problem in and of itself.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
The deadline was set by members of both parties. Neither has done anything to reach an agreement since a week after the deadline was set.
Hope is the denial of reality
A little more smug glee, I'm sorry
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I do have to say I get some amusement from seeing Rove's meltdown.
Hope is the denial of reality
I agree again. But it's still an artificial crisis.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
you don't think 16T debt is a problem? At what level would it be a problem?
Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita
You haven't responded to my pointing out that this happened a mere 4 months after Democrats had full control over the US Government - a majority in the House, a supermajority in the Senate and the Presidency.
How can it be an artificial crisis of the Tea-Party's making then? Why hadn't the Democrats bothered to deal with it before the Tea Party got elected?
Once the Tea Party got their election they had a mandate and duty to try and implement their policies, which they did. However the Democrats could have unilaterally raised the ceiling/curbed the borrowing before it became too late.
I haven't said it isn't a problem. I'm only saying the fiscal cliff deadline of Jan 1, 2013 is artificial, created by the debt ceiling crisis which was also artificial. By artificial I mean the immediacy of the problem, that it has to be solved by Jan 1, not the fact that mounting debt is not an issue. Read, fellas. Read.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
I haven't read you criticising Obama/the DNC for being wholly/primarily responsible for the crisis though. Just the people elected weeks before the US ran out of money.
If merely starting* to resolve the problem by 2013 won't happen then when exactly do you think the US should start to face reality? Lets face it, its not going to happen in 2014 (election year) or 2016 (election year). Probably not 2015 either (posturing over who's going to run for the Presidential election next year) so its kind of now or never. Or would you put it off until 2017?
* Even if the fiscal cliff/an alternative happens then the US will still be borrowing trillions more.
What response are you looking for? Um, I agree? Boy what a missed opportunity that was?
The refusal to raise the debt ceiling was how the Tea Party created an artifical crisis. I'm speaking of the US government suddenly facing default on debt payments - it wasn't because the US could not borrow money to make those payments, it was because a political faction refused to authorize the borrowing. Do you really not know this???How can it be an artificial crisis of the Tea-Party's making then? Why hadn't the Democrats bothered to deal with it before the Tea Party got elected?
Presumably elected representatives have an implicit mandate not to collapse the economy, or to hold the economy hostage in lieu of thoughtful, goodfaith negotiation. I could be wrong about that I guess...Once the Tea Party got their election they had a mandate and duty to try and implement their policies, which they did. However the Democrats could have unilaterally raised the ceiling/curbed the borrowing before it became too late.I don't know for sure, but my guess is the Democrats didn't raise the debt ceiling the year before because they, like everyone else, never thought a political faction would do something so negligently irresponsible. Hindsight is 20/20, no? You really want to say the Democrats caused the debt ceiling crisis because they didn't foresee the Tea Party coming to power and that it would hold the economy hostage to get everything they wanted instead of negotiating? That appears really dumb on the surface.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Is that what's chapping your ass? You want a little evening of the criticism. Sorry, but the debt ceiling crisis actually was as simple as it looked - brinksmanship in order to get everything you want. Oh, there's also the Grover Norquist pledges not to raise taxes ever again no matter what happens. That's idiotic too. Any representative of mine that ever signed anything like that would never get a vote from me ever again, no matter what party.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Yes, it was entirely irresponsible not to have dealt with it sooner.What response are you looking for? Um, I agree? Boy what a missed opportunity that was?
Except the Tea Party was under zero obligation to raise the debt ceiling. Absolutely none. Otherwise what's the point for having a ceiling in the first place? The Obama government could and should have dealt with it earlier. Instead by leaving it to the last minute it would have been irresponsible if the Tea Party HADN'T tried to get concessions from them. That is precisely what they were elected to do and had they not done so they'd have betrayed those who had only just elected them.The refusal to raise the debt ceiling was how the Tea Party created an artifical crisis. I'm speaking of the US government suddenly facing default on debt payments - it wasn't because the US could not borrow money to make those payments, it was because a political faction refused to authorize the borrowing. Do you really not know this???
I would have refused to permit further borrowing without concessions on how to fix it too. That is precisely why a ceiling exists, so that if it needs raising something can be done about it.
Not dealing with the crisis (the crisis is the borrowing, not failing to authorise unlimited borrowing) is what will collapse the economy.Presumably elected representatives have an implicit mandate not to collapse the economy, or to hold the economy hostage in lieu of thoughtful, goodfaith negotiation. I could be wrong about that I guess...
Obama could have raised the ceiling to $999 trillion only a few months earlier had he wanted to. He knew he had a limit in place and did nothing until the last minute to resolve it, don't blame a party who has a veto on raising the limit for wanting to put conditions on that rise - they're doing their job! Nothing irresponsible about it. Try going to your bank manager and say "I'm nearly up to my overdraft limit so I need you to raise it unconditionally" ... good luck with that
Again what they were elected to do. Politics is brinkmanship, I put no blame on newly elected politicians DOING THEIR JOBS. It is solely Obama's fault for not dealing with it until the last minute. Again I would never knowingly run out of money and only then seek a solution once I'm already out.
I really don't know what the point of the law is, since the ceiling had always been raised in the past with a rubber stamp vote by both parties. As far as last minute is concern, you may recall the "negotiations", such as they were, went on for months prior to the projected default date. The process for raising the debt ceiling would have gone exactly as always if not for the Tea Party fringe. It was not an issue of waiting to the last minute or of failing to head off a known threat to send the government into default. Your re-imagining of events is good for arguing but otherwise pointlessGetting concessions is one thing. Refusing to compromise at all with the fiscal default of the US government at stake is negligent and irresponsible. One key function in a representative democracy is for representatives to act as a layer between extremist, self-destructive and inexperienced activists and the actual functioning of government. It is by design to keep at bay the myriad of possible policy disasters the lunatic fringe might inflict on itself and the rest of the nation should they gain substantial direct influence. Had they not been severely negligent and irresponsible, the Tea Party congressmen would have held out for reasonable concessoins and then compromised for the best possible result for their constituents and for the nation as a whole. But instead they made their demands, refused to compromise at all, and were apparently content to let the government default. I don't know what the result of that default would have been, as no congress has let it happen before, but I have to think it would have been damn harmful to the Tea Party congressmen's constituents, along with everyone else. And had they gotten all that they demanded the sudden dramatic spending cuts would probably have triggered another deep recession while at the same time defunded all the safety nets that were keeping millions from personal catastrophe. Irresponsible, yes.it would have been irresponsible if the Tea Party HADN'T tried to get concessions from them. That is precisely what they were elected to do and had they not done so they'd have betrayed those who had only just elected them.
This isn't an individual's finances, it isn't about a bank and it isn't about personal overdrafts. That comparison is only surface comparable to the Federal Government and the running of a nation, but in terms of substance it's completely meaningless.Try going to your bank manager and say "I'm nearly up to my overdraft limit so I need you to raise it unconditionally" ... good luck with that
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
That is absolutely not true! There have been many non-routine rises in the ceiling in the past! The rest of your post kind of falls apart as its mainly relying on this totally fallacious assumption.
Oh please, you didn't even read it.
Edit: Also, pleaes explain what you mean by "non-routine rises in the ceiling in the past." Is that supposed to mean there have been refusals to raise it in the past? If so, please detail them. I'm very interested.
When you say Absolutely Not True to the fact that raising of the debt ceiling is historically regarded as mostly a formality, what's your basis for re-imagining US history?
Last edited by EyeKhan; 11-12-2012 at 08:27 PM.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Making a motion to close this thread.
Many important and interesting topics are being discussed in this thread, that have outlived the RomneyRyan candidacy.
Speaking of reimagining, care to explain why you're rewriting history and indicating that debt-ceiling votes are rubber stamps and have never gone the way they did last time? Because this is certainly not the first time it's caused a drag-out fight. C'mon Choobs, I had to point this out to you when we were discussing it as it happened too. We get a drag-out fight over the debt-ceiling every now and then. This one wasn't even as bad as the the last, when Gingrich and his "New Republicans" DID shut down the government, for a couple months. The only thing noteworthy about the fight in 2011 was it coincided with a global economic crisis.
Last edited by LittleFuzzy; 11-13-2012 at 03:16 AM.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
I always wonder why the media considers congress to be the ones that obstruct things of the president... unless a Republican is the president then his veto is the one obstructing things. Go figure...
For Khen (affect of money in politics): http://sunlightfoundation.com/blog/2...-money-matter/
Hope is the denial of reality
It may be because Obama hasn't used his executive power as much as previous presidents. Which I agree seems to be a big mistake if you want to get things done.
If the opposition has voiced that it's main goal is to make you a one term president, instead of aiming to cooperate and git things done, maybe raising congress to be an equal branch of government after it was sidelined for so many years wasn't a productive idea.
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
Citation needed.
Generally speaking, spending is agreed upon between congress and the president in the budgeting process, so the debt ceiling vote is more or less a formality - a re-agreement, if you will. Regarding the Bush era shut down, that was of course a fight about reducing the deficit via tax increases AND spending cuts vs. spending cuts alone, but it did not involve the debt ceiling. It was a fight over getting a budget agreement in place that reduced the deficit before Gramm-Rudman kicked in, mandating across the board spending cuts that nobody wanted. Congress submitted budgets that included tax increases and Bush vetoed them to the point there wasn't enough money available to keep the government running, hence the shut down. Defaulting on debt payments was not an immediate concern in that fight.
Regarding a rehashing the debt ceiling, I'm not aware of us discussing this before. Of course that doesn't mean we didn't, but I have no recollection. Nor do I recall the debt ceiling being used in the way the Tea Party used it, as a threat to cause the federal government to default on debt payments. That was new and it was negligently irresponsible, especially considering the fragile economic situation.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Like making recess appointments, ordering the killing of Americans in Yemen, and ordering numerous drone attacks against several countries?
Hope is the denial of reality
You really must get a hard pecker from bringing up irrelevant issues in discussions.
Congratulations America
Mostly != Always. The word Always is very clear, that this action by the GOP is utterly without precedent.Oh please, you didn't even read it.
Edit: Also, pleaes explain what you mean by "non-routine rises in the ceiling in the past." Is that supposed to mean there have been refusals to raise it in the past? If so, please detail them. I'm very interested.
When you say Absolutely Not True to the fact that raising of the debt ceiling is historically regarded as mostly a formality, what's your basis for re-imagining US history?
Sorry but that's bullshit. Not only have disputes happened a couple of times (the ceiling was involved with Clinton/Gingrich in 1995-96) but there have been many opportunities taken to use the debt ceiling in a political manner. Most extreme, in a near-exact replica, a GOP Congress and Democrat President had a crisis over raising the ceiling that actually reached a much further point than this one. In 1979 depending upon whose account you read the US came within hours (not days) of defaulting due to the ceiling, or the US actually did default. The reality is that the US defaulted on $120mn worth of payments in 1979 due to the debt ceiling not being raised in time to process payments, which later got paid back with interest.
So given that there is precedent that goes beyond what happened in 2011, as well as other precedents, your entire claim that this is "always" routine is fallacious and everything that relied upon that assumption falls apart.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...j7H_story.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...e-printer.html
Once you've read those stories and become more educated in US economic history will you please apologise for claiming it was me "re-imagining" US history, rather than merely me knowing this subject better?
EDIT: And another link this time about the debt ceiling crisis of 1995-96. I wasn't born in '79 but I'm surprised you can't remember even that far back to '95, I remember it and lived in Australia at the time.
http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/...eiling-crisis#
Last edited by RandBlade; 11-13-2012 at 04:15 PM.
I will, in a bit.
Did you disagree with my statement Loki?
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
Yes. Quite possibly the opposite is true (based on anecdotal evidence). But without concrete evidence, I'm willing to accept that he's used it about the same amount as his predecessors.
Hope is the denial of reality
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