Banning Old Cars

[Hazir]

In case you're not aware (Hazir should be since he lives within the EU) - every car within the EU must undergo inspections either annual [in the UK] or at the maximum biennial [every 2 years is the EU maximum]. Exception only for brand new cars which have a 4 year grace before it needs doing (three in the UK). These inspections involve a large number of safety checks to insure that beaten down old death traps aren't on the road to kill us all with - but they also require emissions testing. Some old cars are exempted from the emissions testing.

This isn't a case of testing a car when it was manufactured, its about testing it in the here and now. As it is - warts and all. A three year old car if badly looked after could fail the test. A well-maintained 17 year old car could pass it.

However because 15 year old cars were exempted from the requirement of the emissions testing part of the tests [because the standards weren't in place when they were manufactured], now apparently they should all be forced off the roads altogether. What I'm saying is that when they next have their routine test, implement the emissions standards. The standards are there already and it'll be based on what the car is measured to pump out today in a test - not what some test upon manufacture before it drove tens of thousands of miles, had parts replaced, had services or not supposedly emits.

You are describing the system the Germans introduced almost 5 years ago. They decided to fail all cars with a registration from before 1997. A year that coincides with the introduction of much stricter emission rules all over the EU and probably changes in the designs of cars. If there is one thing I suspect the Germans of being very good at it is this type of testing; they set the standard. If Tüv makes a claim you can be certain that they have the data to back it up. If they decided fail all old cars in 2008 they will have done so on good grounds. In Germany the move proposed now by Delanoe caused no public uproar.

[Hazir]

On Wikipedia you can see that around that time the rules for emissions changed dramatically. That kind of rule change must have resulted in different specifications for cars to make them cleaner.

[GGT]

The more I think about this and read over the posts, the more it seems we're really missing a huge chunk of information here.

As Hazir points out, many older cars had zero emissions testing at all. Their actual emissions are an unknown quantity. We don't know if a 1966 Beetle or Ford Falcon has better/worse/substantially different emissions than a 1980s Chevy. For all we know, the Falcon has substantially cleaner emissions than the Beetle. Or the Beetle has similar emissions to a 1980s Chevy. Or maybe better. It's really a black box.

To me, this means that we don't have enough data given the emissions involved in producing a car. But I'd rather like that data, it would be really interesting.

Maybe you're the one missing info. States that currently do emissions testing have known results, and can compare your '66 VW with the '80's Chevy. It's not a black box at all.

Wow, it looks like the US led the way on auto emissions pretty substantially. Don't see that every day:

http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/vogel/federalism.pdf (pages 6-8ish)

Beyond leaded gasoline, it seems the US had a 15-20 year lead on nominal auto emissions limits. That certainly changes the context a bit.

Yeah, thank those damn tree-hugging pinko liberals from Berkeley, eh? The early environmentalists were smart enough to use a big state like California to begin higher standards for gasoline, emissions, and MPG for the whole industry. That impacted foreign imports and domestic production, and ultimately EPA minimum standards. Paris and its Mayor doesn't have the same ability to influence, perhaps not even France or any other Euro nation with more public transit than private cars.

When it comes to global pollution from cars or fossil fuels, it'll be interesting to see how Asia handles it when they outnumber US drivers....by millions.

[Dreadnaught]

At least in the US there were no emissions tests and requirements until ~40 years ago. That means that a 1966 car had no emissions tests and (in most US states) still gets no emissions tests as part of the registration process. The data is only there for cars built after the requirements came into effect.

Also, it seems California was given its own leeway because its smog problem was particularly severe and (coupled with a large population) made their situation more pressing.

[GGT]

Depends on the state, the registration process, types of license plates issued....and how the car is used.

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/mv_forms/mv-11.pdf

PA: If you want to drive a '66 VW or '85 Chevy on a routine basis it can't be registered as a Antique/Classic/Collectible. Those plates are for the life of the car, and come with usage restrictions (less than 5,000 miles/year and less than once/week) and sales transfer requirements.

There's a lot of "red tape" and legal language in our vehicular codes, but it's done to exempt truly vintage cars for collecting and show purposes -- not routine driving. The older cars that are refurbished and used for general daily transportation still have to get emissions testing. If they can't be brought up to snuff, they have to be "retired" from regular road use. That's the whole point.

[Ominous Gamer]

Yeah, old cars without an emissions testing history still have to test. Most states have a limit on how many pollutants an older car can put out, usually based on weight. You can get exemptions from having to qualify for those tests with the proper registrations but some states still require testing so you can display the decals or forms.

[RandBlade]

Yeah, old cars without an emissions testing history still have to test. Most states have a limit on how many pollutants an older car can put out, usually based on weight. You can get exemptions from having to qualify for those tests with the proper registrations but some states still require testing so you can display the decals or forms.

Yes now that's a sensible system, test the cars and base it on real outputs.

Given the cars already are required to undergo testing in the EU [and those tests already include emissions tests for post-97 cars] that'd be no extra effort or cost.

Its really a no-brainer. There is no harm in doing that at all.

You are describing the system the Germans introduced almost 5 years ago. They decided to fail all cars with a registration from before 1997. A year that coincides with the introduction of much stricter emission rules all over the EU and probably changes in the designs of cars. If there is one thing I suspect the Germans of being very good at it is this type of testing; they set the standard. If Tüv makes a claim you can be certain that they have the data to back it up. If they decided fail all old cars in 2008 they will have done so on good grounds. In Germany the move proposed now by Delanoe caused no public uproar.

You've already said earlier this thread that the German cars were the worst pre-97.

[Flixy]

Well, there would be some extra cost for pre-97 cars.

[RandBlade]

Well, there would be some extra cost for pre-97 cars.

Maybe for the garages a bit yes, because most garages don't charge less for a pre-97 MOT they just pocket the savings.

Be nothing compared to destroying a perfectly good classic car though.

[Dreadnaught]

Depends on the state, the registration process, types of license plates issued....and how the car is used.

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/mv_forms/mv-11.pdf

PA: If you want to drive a '66 VW or '85 Chevy on a routine basis it can't be registered as a Antique/Classic/Collectible. Those plates are for the life of the car, and come with usage restrictions (less than 5,000 miles/year and less than once/week) and sales transfer requirements.

There's a lot of "red tape" and legal language in our vehicular codes, but it's done to exempt truly vintage cars for collecting and show purposes -- not routine driving. The older cars that are refurbished and used for general daily transportation still have to get emissions testing. If they can't be brought up to snuff, they have to be "retired" from regular road use. That's the whole point.

I don't think registering as an antique is mandatory. But you get special plates and whatnot, and some insurance companies may require it to get their classic car insurance policies (which can have milage requirements, usage requirements, etc).

[Ominous Gamer]

Yes now that's a sensible system, test the cars and base it on real outputs.

Given the cars already are required to undergo testing in the EU [and those tests already include emissions tests for post-97 cars] that'd be no extra effort or cost.

Its really a no-brainer. There is no harm in doing that at all.

If I'm understanding the context here correctly, the city is having to act because existing regulations aren't doing enough to cover pollutants in high density areas, so while the cars may pass the national testing, the city needs stricker rules. Since the city doesn't have the weight or funds to test every car, and the nation has no reason to increase their costs by listing what cities a car is legal in on whatever decals or paperwork they supply, the easiest and cheapest step is simply ban the vehicles that don't pass the most stringent 97 testing.

I don't think registering as an antique is mandatory.

correct, in fact it can be a pain in the ass to get the special antique or collectible tags

[RandBlade]

The issue is that pre-97 cars are exempt from some parts of the testing. If the cars passed the testing, the city wouldn't have an issue.

The simplest solution would be for those who want to drive in Paris to ensure their cars take part in the full test, not the stripped down version. Get a certificate to say you passed with the readings (which you get anyway) and you can continue to drive.

[Dreadnaught]

Is there any chance the cars would actually pass? It seems unlikely if the standards were barely-there at the time.

[Hazir]

Virtually zero, cars before 97 were seriously polluting. Germany was actively sabotaging raising the standards; I doubt they were up to the later standard.

[GGT]

Is there any chance the cars would actually pass? It seems unlikely if the standards were barely-there at the time.

I think you're missing something here, Dread. The purpose of emissions testing is to (A) keep polluting old clunkers from driving more than 5,000 miles/year, and (B) still allow vintage/classic/antique cars to drive in parades or auto shows, or tool around town on weekends for joy rides.

We have tons of auto shows in town, and even a popular national "hot rod" annual convention. The kit cars are treated as new vehicles, with regular registration for tags, and emissions testing. Same for older cars that have been refurbished and/or modified, but want to drive cross-country to the shows, or be used as daily transportation. You can tell by their license plates.

The truly vintage classics owners don't want to modify too much, or put in a modern exhaust system, since it loses its collectible value. They're the owners that use a vehicle hauler to bring their cars to the shows or parades, and they certainly don't want to put more than 5,000 miles/year on the car. The car geeks that love older cars and also want to drive them as their primary transportation....enjoy putting in new transmissions and exhaust systems. They wouldn't want the limits designed for vintage cars, kept in garages, toted around on trucks, treated with kid gloves. And they can meet the emissions standards, as well as safety standards. They'll replace lap belts with shoulder straps, for example. Even if that means taking out the seats to bolt them to the frame, or reinforcing the undercarriage to do that.

[Dreadnaught]

I think you're actually missing something; you have the purpose of emissions testing completely wrong. The goal is to enforce standards for cars and maintain/raise those standards over time until more and more cars have higher standards. This is a regulatory program that US has been implementing for 40 years. Many European countries haven't been doing this as long as we have, so a higher proportion of their car stock was manufactured with no/lower emissions standards compared to the US. This has changed the emissions profile of their car stock versus the US, hence the Paris mayor's suggestion.

Car emissions standards have nothing to do with the existence vintage cars or limiting their milage. They are about improving the environment under the assumption that the vast majority of people haven't been holding-on to their cars for the past 40 years and using them every day. Cars made before certain emissions standards usually don't have to follow those standards. You're confusing a unique registration category in a specific state with emissions requirements.

The antique registration in PA seems to basically be a ploy to print vintage-style plates, skip some safety requirements and create a new registration category to raise some cash from PA owners of vintage cars. But that's different from someone who has an old car built before certain requirements who registers their car with a standard registration.

It's not clear to me that registering your 1966 car as an antique is mandatory in PA if it's not strictly a show car. EG, a 1966 car in PA with a standard registration probably gets an emissions-pass sticker without any real emissions check in most PennDOT regions: http://www.drivecleanpa.state.pa.us/...q_customer.pdf But it's hard to tell, PA's laws seem strict at first but when you peruse them there is a convenient amount of room for screwing around with older cars.

[GGT]

Of course emissions testing is about improving environment and reducing exhaust pollution. What you missed is that I've been posting about PA as an example, just one of 50 different state regulatory programs. Ours connects plate/registration with mandatory inspections.

We have certain exclusions, or other "tests" besides the computerized OBD. Options for a '66 VW would be either Classic Car status (with limited mileage, spewing less pollution), OR making emissions upgrades to pass tail pipe/gas cap tests, and/or getting a waiver after spending $150 on upgrades. No idea how much it costs to install a catalytic converter, but it's probably more than $150. It's easier and cheaper to go Classic, but your driving miles will be limited. Those are your choices in PA.

We don't BAN older vehicles, but still have to meet Clean Air guidelines....by trying to keep older models upgraded or driving less. The technology will always be advancing, standards changing/increasing, and eventually even ten year old cars will be more of a polluter than new models. Europeans have been manufacturing newer cars with technology often superior to the US for decades, no idea what you mean by their "stock" being inferior.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing for or against at this point.

[Dreadnaught]

No, you don't have to go buy a catalytic converter for a 45 year old car to get it to pass inspection. They don't make catalytic converters for 45 year old cars.

As with most places, the emissions tests in most of PA specifically don't apply to cars built before 1973 based on the stuff I found on the PennDOT site.

I'm arguing that you are blithely citing Pennsylvania as some kind of model without really understanding what the procedures really are.

[Nessus]

No, you don't have to go buy a catalytic converter for a 45 year old car to get it to pass inspection. They don't make catalytic converters for 45 year old cars.

What happened to supply and demand

[Flixy]

Not sure about catalytic converter, but soot filters are available, and isn't fine dust the biggest inner city problem?

[GGT]

No, you don't have to go buy a catalytic converter for a 45 year old car to get it to pass inspection. They don't make catalytic converters for 45 year old cars.

As with most places, the emissions tests in most of PA specifically don't apply to cars built before 1973 based on the stuff I found on the PennDOT site.

Did you read your own link...or what I said? It covers catalytic converters that failed inspection but don't have replacement parts because of age. Yeah, you don't have to replace the thing, just spend at least $150 on various non-polluting attempts.

I'm arguing that you are blithely citing Pennsylvania as some kind of model without really understanding what the procedures really are.

Bull. You said....The antique registration in PA seems to basically be a ploy to print vintage-style plates, skip some safety requirements and create a new registration category to raise some cash from PA owners of vintage cars. But that's different from someone who has an old car built before certain requirements who registers their car with a standard registration.

Either way you look at it, the costs aren't more than $150 to get an older car registered or pass inspections. It's not some "ploy" to raise cash from vintage car owners. And the state of PA isn't conspiring to proxy-ban older cars (like yours), or make them too expensive to still drive as routine transportation.

Our requirements have a bunch of red tape and some confusion for car owners moving from out of state, but I'd say it's better to have more standard screening than less. I wouldn't mind other states doing the same, or coordinating standards between states. So what's your beef, really?

[Dreadnaught]

What happened to supply and demand

There is no demand here because GGT doesn't seem to understand that the laws don't require the converters.

Not sure about catalytic converter, but soot filters are available, and isn't fine dust the biggest inner city problem?

I think those are primarily focused on diesels, right?

Either way you look at it, the costs aren't more than $150 to get an older car registered or pass inspections. It's not some "ploy" to raise cash from vintage car owners. And the state of PA isn't conspiring to proxy-ban older cars (like yours), or make them too expensive to still drive as routine transportation.

No, it doesn't just cost $150 to get your 1966 car to pass an emissions inspection. The car almost certainly has no chance of passing the inspection because there were zero auto emissions controls in the US in 1966, that's the whole point of where we started here. And PA law doesn't seem to require any kind of real emissions test for cars that have a standard registration built before 1975.

Please read the link again, IE the part where it outlines the model years and what tests are required. Not to mention the 42 Pennsylvania counties that have zero emissions inspections requirements.

[GGT]

There is no demand here because GGT doesn't seem to understand that the laws don't require the converters.

No, it doesn't just cost $150 to get your 1966 car to pass an emissions inspection. The car almost certainly has no chance of passing the inspection because there were zero auto emissions controls in the US in 1966, that's the whole point of where we started here. And PA law doesn't seem to require any kind of real emissions test for cars that have a standard registration built before 1975.

Please read the link again, IE the part where it outlines the model years and what tests are required. Not to mention the 42 Pennsylvania counties that have zero emissions inspections requirements.

So you're not fully reading your own links, let alone my posts. You're glossing over things, including the loopholes I mentioned. Yet, you want to discuss or argue national EPA Clean Air standards, and state emissions testing or regulations for vehicles....without actually taking a position, or making your position known?

[Dreadnaught]

What in the name of Allah are you even saying?

My "position" isn't a position as much as a point of curiosity. I would be curious to know how the emissions of really old cars (40+ years old) compare to moderately old cars (and to new cars).

You replied that this is somehow known and pointed to the state of Pennsylvania's emissions requirements. Yet you somehow have repeatedly not found the parts of Pennsylvania motor requirements that measure and evaluate car emissions for automobiles made before 1975.

Pennsylvania does have a few registration categories that charge a ludicrous amount of money for vintage blue PA plates, but skip emission and safety checks and restrict usage. This is separate from the normal registration process. And also has nothing to do with the original thing I was curious about.

[GGT]

It's from your own link under Tail Pipe Tests and Dynamometers!

Inspection requirements are based on each vehicle’s model year, with an allowance for normal wear.

After approximately 30-45 seconds, the analyzer will determine whether or not the vehicle is emitting excess pollutants based on the vehicle’s model year.

If you're that curious about it, search sites used by auto mechanics doing the testing, and look for charts and standards they use on older cars.

And it's not a "ludicrous amount of money" to spend $75 on registration and $22.50 for title. So WTF are you going on about again?

[Dreadnaught]

Holy crap, I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand. Please look again: http://www.drivecleanpa.state.pa.us/...q_customer.pdf

Just because a test is listed doesn't mean it applies to every model year. If I posted a list of rectal exams covered by an insurance company, would it be safe to conclude that the insurance company mandates rectal exams? No.

Can you please point out what emissions inspections are required for cars built before the 1975 model year? You can't, because there are no requirements.

I don't even have a firm position on this, I'm just pointing out the glaring fact that there is no real data and checking for cars built before ~40 years ago in the US. This is like what you're doing to Hazir in the other thread; completely nonsensical disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing over nonsense.

From the PennDOT guide:

What type of emissions inspection will be required in the South Central Region?
Beginning in December 2003:
• Most 1996 and newer model-year vehicles will be required to have an OBD I/M
Check and a Gas Cap Test performed annually.
• Most 1975-1995 model-year vehicles will be required to have a Gas Cap Test
and a Visual Anti-Tampering Check performed annually.

What type of emissions inspection will be required in the Northern Region?
Beginning in January 2004:
• Most 1975 and newer model-year vehicles will be required to have a Gas Cap
Test and a Visual Anti-Tampering Check performed annually

What type of emissions inspection will be required in the Pittsburgh Region?
By March 31, 2004:
• Most 1996 and newer model-year vehicles will be required to have an OBD I/M
Check and a Gas Cap Test performed annually.
• Most 1975-1995 model-year vehicles will continue to receive the annual
emissions inspections required under the current program which includes:
Tailpipe Tests, Gas Cap Tests and Visual Anti-Tampering Checks.

What type of emissions inspection will be required in the Philadelphia Region?
By June 30, 2004:
• Most 1996 and newer model-year vehicles will be required to have an OBD I/M
Check and a Gas Cap Test performed annually.
• Most 1975-1995 model-year vehicles will continue to receive the annual
emissions inspections required under the current program which include: Tailpipe
Tests, Tailpipe Tests Utilizing a Dynamometer, Gas Cap Tests and Visual AntiTampering Checks.

Remaining 42 Non-Inspection/Maintenance (I/M)
Emissions Counties
(Adams, Armstrong, Bedford, Bradford, Butler, Cameron, Carbon, Clarion, Clearfield,
Clinton, Columbia, Crawford, Elk, Fayette, Forest, Franklin, Fulton, Greene,
Huntingdon, Indiana, Jefferson, Juniata, Lawrence, McKean, Mifflin, Monroe, Montour,
Northumberland, Perry, Pike, Potter, Schuylkill, Snyder, Somerset, Sullivan,
Susquehanna, Tioga, Union, Venango, Warren, Wayne and Wyoming counties)

Nothing. Before. 1975.

[GGT]

Holy crap, I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand. Please look again: http://www.drivecleanpa.state.pa.us/...q_customer.pdf

Just because a test is listed doesn't mean it applies to every model year. If I posted a list of rectal exams covered by an insurance company, would it be safe to conclude that the insurance company mandates rectal exams? No.

Can you please point out what emissions inspections are required for cars built before the 1975 model year? You can't, because there are no requirements.

Read again. It depends on what type of Registration title and tag you want for that '75 model, how you intend to use the car, and if it's been "maintained" using original manufacturer specs, or "modified".

I don't even have a firm position on this, I'm just pointing out the glaring fact that there is no real data and checking for cars built before ~40 years ago in the US. This is like what you're doing to Hazir in the other thread; completely nonsensical disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing over nonsense.

Let me get this straight. Explaining that there aren't cohesive, coordinated "markets" or standards between 50 US states, let alone compared to European "markets" and standards....whether in home appliances or vehicle emissions testing....that is somehow nonsensical disagreement for argument's sake?

[GGT]

Read an interesting article on the Mayor of Paris trying to ban cars built before 1997. This has people with older classic cars, as well as poor people with old cars, very upset.

I can understand the environmental benefits. But something just seems off about this. Is it that we don't like the idea of buying a car that's legal at the time it was manufactured, then having a government decide 40 years later that it's illegal? Is is that we like classic cars and don't like the idea that they can just be banned outright?

Or is this whole idea totally necessary and should be adapted nationwide/worldwide?

Maybe we should start this thread from its beginning.

Lets assume we like cars in general, and want owners/drivers to use them as long as possible. What should we do when older/outdated cars are still on the road, but have become polluters (using newest technology and standards)? And what should we do when energy/fuel advancements eventually lead to ZERO emission vehicles, but people still want to use their gas powered combustion engine vehicles?

[Dreadnaught]

Read again. It depends on what type of Registration title and tag you want for that '75 model, how you intend to use the car, and if it's been "maintained" using original manufacturer specs, or "modified".

Let me get this straight. Explaining that there aren't cohesive, coordinated "markets" or standards between 50 US states, let alone compared to European "markets" and standards....whether in home appliances or vehicle emissions testing....that is somehow nonsensical disagreement for argument's sake?

Moving the goalposts. We're not talking about 1975 cars. We're talking about things like a 1966 car that is exempt from any emissions requirements. And we're only talking about it because you haven't been able to understand that it's exempt from emissions requirements.

The 1966 Ford*in PA is comparable to a 1996 Renault in Paris. The difference is the 1966 Ford is still legal to drive in PA without emissions requirements, while the 1996 Renault is being banned.

[GGT]

Moving the goalposts. We're not talking about 1975 cars. We're talking about things like a 1966 car that is exempt from any emissions requirements. And we're only talking about it because you haven't been able to understand that it's exempt from emissions requirements.

Dude, I'm not the one moving goal posts. You've mentioned cars from '66, '75, '85....and only because you're driving an old VW Beetle from the 1960's. What's the matter, has the great state of New York imposed tests, taxes or fines on your vehicle that you find unacceptable? Do tell....


(PA hasn't "banned" any vehicle.)