Familiarity

[wiggin]

I ran across this somewhat light-hearted piece on the BBC today: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21196793

What I found interesting was this chunk, amid a longer diatribe about not wanting software to be overly familiar with him:

The difference is the use of my name. I also have a problem with people excessively using my name. I feel it gives them some power over me and overuse implies disingenuousness. Like when you ring a call centre where they seem obsessed with saying your name. "Now Mr O'Regan, just to let you know that for training purposes I will be repeating your name throughout this phone call, in case you forget who you are."

Facebook is not the only one getting chummy. All over the internet, websites seem to want be your friend. Once you tell them the slightest bit of information, they seize on it like a chugger and use it to reinforce their "relationship" with you.

There's also an informality that I find irrationally grating. It's the same feeling I get when someone in a trendy coffee shop calls me "man", even though I have no recollection of giving permission for such impertinence.

This reminded me of a passage I read in Bill Bryson's book I'm a Stranger Here Myself. After living in the UK for two decades, he was reflecting on a pseudo-outsider's perspective on America. In one amusing passage he talked about how in the US he's on a first name basis with everyone, irrespective of station or connection - his janitor and barista as well as his doctor and accountant (not to mention the random chap he talks to on the phone at customer service). Except that instead of Mr. O'Regan's shock and horror at such familiarity, Bryson welcomes it, seeing it as a sign of a certain egalitarian ethos that permeates American society - we assume a certain equality and familiarity irrespective of our relative positions. He contrasts this to what he saw as somewhat straightlaced and stuffy formalism in the UK.

At the time, I dismissed it as hyperbolic humor; I'm sure it speaks to some underlying truth, but I didn't really think there was such a stark difference. Yet reading the above passage, I was struck that maybe he was right. This chap seems to get really worked up over software - and people - who are just trying to be friendly and not overly formal. Even the 'disingenuous' nature of call centers using your name (which, yes, I also find artificial) is an honest attempt by the people who make the rules there to make their customers feel more comfortable. I certainly don't view it as impertinence!

So: what do you guys think? Is there really as stark of a cultural divide, or is this just a chance confluence of contrasting views? And, if Americans are far more tolerant of familiarity, does it indeed stem from Bryson's thesis re: egalitarian societies?

This is more fluffy than my normal threads, so I figured I'd dump it in GC and see if anything sticks.

[Loki]

I agree with your basic premise. Brits seem to be obsessed with class. Calling someone "lower class" is a grave insult. Though the rich and the poor don't exactly see eye to eye in the US, they seem to absolutely loathe one another in Britain. And this obsession with class extends to other countries. Brits seem to have a need to feel superior to other countries, particularly ones similar to their own. Thus they come up with ever more ridiculous reasons for hating the US. Similarly, anything that is different in Britain from America (or the EU on other occasions) is automatically given high status (the NHS and the death penalty come to mind for the US case; the pound in the latter). While there's something to be said about the fake niceness you frequently get in America, it's far preferable to the passive aggression you get in Britain.

[Steely Glint]

Calling someone lower class might be a grave insult (the kind of insult that would likely direct opprobrium towards the insulter in the same way uttering a racial slur would) but calling oneself "working class" is a badge of pride for many people. I know people in quintessentially middle class jobs - bank manager, teacher - who still insist of thinking of themselves in this way. Loki's right that British society has an unhealthy fixation on class but I don't think he really understands the complexity of the issue. The idea that British opposition to the death penalty is routed in somekind of snobbishness towards America is just hilarious.

[Loki]

Calling someone lower class might be a grave insult (the kind of insult that would likely direct opprobrium towards the insulter in the same way uttering a racial slur would) but calling oneself "working class" is a badge of pride for many people. I know people in quintessentially middle class jobs - bank manager, teacher - who still insist of thinking of themselves in this way. Loki's right that British society has an unhealthy fixation on class but I don't think he really understands the complexity of the issue. The idea that British opposition to the death penalty is routed in somekind of snobbishness towards America is just hilarious.

I didn't say that the opposition to the death penalty is rooted in American policy. I said that the issue is considered important/salient for that reason.

And yes, there's an obsession with calling oneself "working class", but that's usually used as a tactic to disparage the snobby upper classes.

[Steely Glint]

The issue is considered neither important nor salient, except by death penalty supporters who are convinced there's some vast ground swell of support for the death penalty amongst the British general population.

Spoiler:

there isn't

The motive you gave for people to identify as working class isn't accurate either.

[RandBlade]

I don't think it's really a Class issue but rather one of differing manners/culture.

In America it's normal and considered polite to be familiar with strangers.
In the UK it's unusual and considered fake to be familiar with strangers.

I don't think either system is better. I would say having worked in the customer service sector before both on the phone (giving name in greeting when picking up the phone) or face-face (wearing a name badge as part of uniform) I found customers calling me by my name unpleasant and fake sometimes, especially if they were unhappy - but if they were smiling then it felt more natural.

[Steely Glint]

You know, I'm pretty sure the last time I actually referred to someone by anything other than the first name was back in school or as part of some kind of "Steely Glint is actually a vaguely xenophobic Victorian throwback" joke. Sometimes custom-service types refer to me as "Mr. Ward", but otherwise all other professional dealings have used first names.

If I remember Bryson's article correctly, he wasn't contrasting America with the UK, but how things used to be in the Oldene Tymes when everyone called everyone by their surname in any professional context and his own changing attitudes towards this practice. O'Reagan's article is just... well, it's actually just the typical Columnist-Makes-Actually-Kind-Of-Banal-And-Stupid-Observation-As-If-It-Were-Great-Profundity that publishers everywhere use to fill space, but I think what he's really complaining about is overuse of his name rather than over-familiarity. In normal human social interaction, people rarely actually use each others name, only as part of a greeting or to distinguish them from someone else present. Constantly using someone's name comes across as creepy and weird.

[Hazir]

I make a point out of knowing people's names and telephone numbers so that when they call me I can pick up the phone with their name. It's an easy enough trick in my line of work and it gives me the advantage in the conversation if I can answer the phone 'Good afternoon mr X, this is Hazir, how can I help you?'. It immediately wipes away any notion that they are just a one of an unknown number of people and basically not much more than a folder with a number on it. People are more likely to enter into an open conversation that way, and that helps me to do my work a lot more efficiently. A lot more efficiently I can tell you than my collegues who don't make the effort.

As for the first name thing; at the office I refer to pretty much everybody by his/her first name. And I think the same is true for most other people I interact with, with the exception maybe of people who are considerably older than myself and who I have not explicitly addressed the matter with. That means that even in this group there are people I use their first name with, unless I jokingly use their surname.

Don't know if all Brits are obsessed with class; in Edinburgh it didn't seem like a very big deal. Though I have encountered some snotty behaviour their too, (at least that's what I thought it was, though it might simply have been unprofessional behaviour) but most realtors I dealt with overthere were on a first name basis from the get go.

[GGT]

This seems like an etiquette question with cultural undertones. I'd say "it depends on the situation more than the nation". But it's true that names and titles are used to indicate power.

Example: when I visit a doctor, I expect a degree of formality. They call me Mrs. and I call them Dr. --- until or unless we've established a more "familiar" and mutual first-name-basis relationship. I've had more than a few young/new doctors use my first name, perhaps thinking it would set me at ease, but were flummoxed when I used their first name.

This is the stuff of comedy skits. Especially during gynecological exams.

[Dreadnaught]

Other hypothetical semi-nonserious reason we use first names in the US: our first names tend to be more homogeneous Anglophone names, while our last names tend to reflect our family's origins from non-Anglophone places.

[wiggin]

I don't think it's really a Class issue but rather one of differing manners/culture.

In America it's normal and considered polite to be familiar with strangers.
In the UK it's unusual and considered fake to be familiar with strangers.

Hmm. Why do you think this is the case? I'm not expecting a grand sociological theory here, just curious if you have any ideas.

If I remember Bryson's article correctly, he wasn't contrasting America with the UK, but how things used to be in the Oldene Tymes when everyone called everyone by their surname in any professional context and his own changing attitudes towards this practice. O'Reagan's article is just... well, it's actually just the typical Columnist-Makes-Actually-Kind-Of-Banal-And-Stupid-Observation-As-If-It-Were-Great-Profundity that publishers everywhere use to fill space, but I think what he's really complaining about is overuse of his name rather than over-familiarity. In normal human social interaction, people rarely actually use each others name, only as part of a greeting or to distinguish them from someone else present. Constantly using someone's name comes across as creepy and weird.

Oh, I agree with you about the bulk of O'Regan's article - I only quoted it because part of it was in striking contrast to Bryson's observations and I was curious whether there was anything to it.

As for Bryson's article, it was called "Number, Please" in the book (don't know if the original article had a different title). I'll reproduce the relevant bits below:

So imagine my surprise when, after just 270 rings, a real person came on the line. He asked some of my personal details and then said, "Excuse me, Bill. I have to put you on hold a minute."

Did you catch that? He called me Bill. Not Mr. Bryson. Not Sir. Not O Mighty Taxpayer. But Bill. Two years ago, I would have regarded this as a small impertinence, but now I find I've grown to like it.

There are certain times when the informality and familiarity of American life strains my patience-when a waiter tells me his name is Bob and that he'll be my server this evening, I still have to resist an impulse to say, "I just want a cheeseburger, Bob. I'm not looking for a relationship"-but mostly I have come to like it. It's because it's symbolic of something more fundamental, I suppose.

There is no tugging of forelocks here, you see, but a genuine universal assumption that no person is better than any other. I think that's swell. My garbage collector calls me Bill. My doctor calls me Bill. My children's school principal calls me Bill. They don't tug for me. I don't tug for them. I think that's as it should be.

In England, I used the same accountant for over a decade, and our relations were always cordial but businesslike. She never called me anything but Mr. Bryson and I never called her anything but Mrs. Creswick. When I moved to America, I phoned an accountant for an appointment. When I came to his office, his first words to me were, "Ah, Bill, I'm glad you could make it." We were pals already. Now when I see him I ask him about his kids.

He goes on in this vein a bit, but you get his general thesis. I haven't a clue if he's completely full of shit, though.

I make a point out of knowing people's names and telephone numbers so that when they call me I can pick up the phone with their name. It's an easy enough trick in my line of work and it gives me the advantage in the conversation if I can answer the phone 'Good afternoon mr X, this is Hazir, how can I help you?'. It immediately wipes away any notion that they are just a one of an unknown number of people and basically not much more than a folder with a number on it. People are more likely to enter into an open conversation that way, and that helps me to do my work a lot more efficiently. A lot more efficiently I can tell you than my collegues who don't make the effort.

As for the first name thing; at the office I refer to pretty much everybody by his/her first name. And I think the same is true for most other people I interact with, with the exception maybe of people who are considerably older than myself and who I have not explicitly addressed the matter with. That means that even in this group there are people I use their first name with, unless I jokingly use their surname.

I think the question is, would you call your accountant or lawyer by their first names? Would a client of yours use your first name without being invited to?

I think most people use first names at work - I actually am a bit unusual in that I have normally referred to my PIs/bosses as 'Dr. whoever' as a sign of respect (though it is not solicited, and others feel comfortable using first names). The real test is when it's not a colleague but a client or service provider.

(As an aside, amusing mini-story: a friend of mine who's a research professor says he enjoys Indian students the most because they all address him as 'sir'. It tickles his fancy. He's about as far away from a sir as you can get.)

Other hypothetical semi-nonserious reason we use first names in the US: our first names tend to be more homogeneous Anglophone names, while our last names tend to reflect our family's origins from non-Anglophone places.

That's a pretty broad generalization there. I'd say nearly half of the people I associate with regularly don't have Anglophone names; even the ones that do give you a sense of their background. Davids and Joshes are not like Lukes and Peters.

[GGT]

Starbucks uses first names with their customers. That's bugged the crap outta me since the first time they asked my first name....so they could write in on a cup and call it out in a crowd.

BTW, I'm on first-name basis with my CPA, portfolio manager, and primary physician....but only because our relationships are long-term, and we've come to mutually agreed terms.

[Loki]

God forbid you get a Ph.D. You'd probably demand everyone call you doctor.

[GGT]

Project much Dr. Loki?

[Loki]

Says the person who apparently has a copyright on their first name.

[GGT]

WTF are you on about?

I don't frequent Starbucks much, but next time they ask my cup name I'll say DOCTOR LOKI. lol

[earthJoker]

Just say any name. I know a English guy. He always said, "I am Jürgen". Then the guy from the shop tried to shout "Jürgen" in English accent. That's actually quite funny.

[Dreadnaught]

That's a pretty broad generalization there. I'd say nearly half of the people I associate with regularly don't have Anglophone names; even the ones that do give you a sense of their background. Davids and Joshes are not like Lukes and Peters.

Give you a sense of their background via their first name or last name? Because I meet lots of Davids and Joshes and Peters. The difference is if they are named David Wang, David Bernstein or David O'Conner.

Just say any name. I know a English guy. He always said, "I am Jürgen". Then the guy from the shop tried to shout "Jürgen" in English accent. That's actually quite funny.

Did the shop guy say Mr. Jürgen? Because that's apparently the only way to do it in Engerland.

[wiggin]

Give you a sense of their background via their first name or last name? Because I meet lots of Davids and Joshes and Peters. The difference is if they are named David Wang, David Bernstein or David O'Conner.

Not always, but often. I think it's pretty clear where someone names Qiongyu comes from, just like someone name Anirudha, Michal, Seamus, Hans, Gino, etc. Half of the names I mentioned were born outside the US; the other half were not. Can you guess which? Didn't think so.

Obviously some people intentionally choose Anglicized names to fit in, and not all names are clear indicators (maybe some parents really liked the name Brunhilda even though they're Kenyan). Obviously a tame name like David or William or something won't give you much to work with, so any conclusions you draw will be largely circumstantial. But in general, I'd say a decent chunk of the people I regularly talk to/work with have distinctly non-Anglo names, and that often gives you a sense of their family history/background. Don't think it matters much, though.

[earthJoker]

Did the shop guy say Mr. Jürgen? Because that's apparently the only way to do it in Engerland.

It was in Adelaide. He lives there during European winters.

[Steely Glint]

He goes on in this vein a bit, but you get his general thesis. I haven't a clue if he's completely full of shit, though

I don't think he's full of shit, but that book was publish a decade ago and most of the articles were written even before that. I don't think it's implausable that the practice of first names caught on in America before the UK.

[RandBlade]

Hmm. Why do you think this is the case? I'm not expecting a grand sociological theory here, just curious if you have any ideas.

Tips. American service staff work for tips much more than their English equivalents do so are as friendly and as personable as they can be (as it gets more tips). As people are thus more used to it, its normal for everyone else to do the same too.

There's a misapprehension it seems here that people in the UK expect to be called Mr Surname rather than just their firstname. No that's not it, I think we just generally don't use our names full stop. I find being called Mr Blade (not real surname) just as condescending/fake as I'd find people calling me my first name.

In relationships where people actually should use my name, then I'd always expect the first name not surname. If speaking to an accountant (example used above by someone) I've always used first name. I don't feel the need for waiters to call me by my name - either name - or vice-versa though.

As for Bryson's article, it was called "Number, Please" in the book (don't know if the original article had a different title). I'll reproduce the relevant bits below:

He goes on in this vein a bit, but you get his general thesis. I haven't a clue if he's completely full of shit, though.

He's a comedian, he exaggerates.

[wiggin]

Fair enough!

[Loki]

Tips. American service staff work for tips much more than their English equivalents do so are as friendly and as personable as they can be (as it gets more tips). As people are thus more used to it, its normal for everyone else to do the same too.

That's only partially true. Fast food workers who never get tips in the US are still far friendlier than their British counterparts. Americans have far higher expectations of customer service.

[Ominous Gamer]

agreed. I've gotten more than one free meal in the mail after complaining about shitty workers at fast food joints.

also want to point out that generally, people over here expect both sides to display a higher than normal level of friendliness when it comes to food interactions. If you're an asshole to a fast food worker, no one is going to back you up with you get the same attitude in return. plus people generally don't like getting contaminated food.

[Khendraja'aro]

Not to mention the German attitude displayed in our service industry. Some of the guys working there still haven't grasped the fact that, yes, their job entails dealing with humans on a regular level and that, yes, at least making the attempt of being friendly makes their jobs easier, even if the customer turns out to be a complete asshole afterwards.

I've had good experiences with the method of asking for their manager (or writing down their names if the manager was not available). Most of them become really friendly at that point - usually because they just recognized that they behaved like asstards.

I don't have to do that very often, though. Actually, I can recall only three incidents where I did that, chief among them:
The ticket machine on a small train station was broken. Thus I asked the conductor if I could buy a ticket from him. Only problem: He claimed to have no money to change my 10 € bill and thus wanted me to go to a shop about 500 meters down the road to get change. With the train only stopping at the station for 2 minutes, mind. After pointedly looking at his name tag, writing that down and asking for the telephone number of his superior, he suddenly found some change he didn't "know" he had.

But frankly, I'm sometimes astounded that people are allowed to get away with such behaviour by their superiors sometimes. During my time as a tech support drone, my superior would have ripped off my head and spat into the hole if I had acted the way some of those guys did.

[RandBlade]

agreed. I've gotten more than one free meal in the mail after complaining about shitty workers at fast food joints.

You'd get the same in the UK if you complain. General practice for fast food to give free food to deal with complaints (whether backed or not).

[Hazir]

I think the question is, would you call your accountant or lawyer by their first names? Would a client of yours use your first name without being invited to?

I think most people use first names at work - I actually am a bit unusual in that I have normally referred to my PIs/bosses as 'Dr. whoever' as a sign of respect (though it is not solicited, and others feel comfortable using first names). The real test is when it's not a colleague but a client or service provider.

(As an aside, amusing mini-story: a friend of mine who's a research professor says he enjoys Indian students the most because they all address him as 'sir'. It tickles his fancy. He's about as far away from a sir as you can get.)

I could easily imagine calling my accountant or lawyer by their first name, not from the get-go maybe, but we might very well get there in the run of our first conversation. I've had clients call me by my first name but in those cases I tend to stick to surname and the formal form of you (u) we still have in Dutch, unless it gets too awkward to do that.

It's a bit of a trial and error thing really, things aren't quite set in stone overhere. The other day I heard somebody talk about a guy named 'Felix' and it took me a full two minutes to understand he was talking about the head of our division. Still I imagine that if 'Felix' and I were ever to meet eachother we could very well be on a first name basis from the start.

[Flixy]

agreed. I've gotten more than one free meal in the mail after complaining about shitty workers at fast food joints.

also want to point out that generally, people over here expect both sides to display a higher than normal level of friendliness when it comes to food interactions. If you're an asshole to a fast food worker, no one is going to back you up with you get the same attitude in return. plus people generally don't like getting contaminated food.

My worst experiences with people being dicks to staff were Americans though, expecting the staff to be nice to them even if they weren't, because of the tips. Customer may be king, but the bartender is God over here and can still throw you out