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Thread: PRISM -- NSA Monitoring Web Services We All Use?

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    To Fuzzy: you may think there are sufficient legal safeguards for data privacy, or there's not much of a chilling effect with all this meta-collection....but that's overlooking that our Press is totally digitized, using "tele-comm" to contact sources, do their research, write their rough drafts, file their stories, etc. Professional journalists have been dragged into the net, too.

    Also, don't underestimate the impact of our banking system being digitized, cached and stored for decades. Identity thieves can still capitalize on the glaring gaps.
    I never said it was a good thing, that the government should be doing it, or that the safeguards in place are sufficient. I've been saying it isn't as horrifying as people are making it out to be, that the scenarios being drawn weren't really much different from what is/can already happen. There is absolutely a case to be made that privacy protection isn't strong enough *by the same token a case might be made that some of those notions of privacy just don't fit the modern world and I'm not talking about security from terrorism* it just doesn't have much to do with this program.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    An arbitration clause doesn't mean the ISP is shielded from breach of contract.
    no, but it does shield them from class action, which you suggested, and arbitration by the nature of its use is stacked against the consumer.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I never said it was a good thing, that the government should be doing it, or that the safeguards in place are sufficient. I've been saying it isn't as horrifying as people are making it out to be, that the scenarios being drawn weren't really much different from what is/can already happen. There is absolutely a case to be made that privacy protection isn't strong enough *by the same token a case might be made that some of those notions of privacy just don't fit the modern world and I'm not talking about security from terrorism* it just doesn't have much to do with this program.
    Hardly anyone is talking about the PRISM program in isolation, though. It's part of NSA "authorities" approved by every branch of government, under the auspices of National Security, National Defense.

    That doesn't just affect John and Jane Doe Q. Public...but also the Fourth Estate (Free Press), and tele-comm companies.

    The world really IS connected in a cyber space, cloud-sourced Web that spins at spidery hyper-speeds, while legislation moves in slow, tortoise paces.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    no, but it does shield them from class action, which you suggested, and arbitration by the nature of its use is stacked against the consumer.
    That's a fair enough criticism.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Hardly anyone is talking about the PRISM program in isolation, though.
    Doesn't matter. You called out me and my line of discussion. And I have been talking about PRISM in isolation.

    It's part of NSA "authorities" approved by every branch of government, under the auspices of National Security, National Defense.

    That doesn't just affect John and Jane Doe Q. Public...but also the Fourth Estate (Free Press), and tele-comm companies.

    The world really IS connected in a cyber space, cloud-sourced Web that spins at spidery hyper-speeds, while legislation moves in slow, tortoise paces.
    Well that "hardly anyone" includes me and the discussion I was having and which you called out for that comment so. . .

    Further, I did say very early on in the discussion that the most disturbing aspect of this program is how our structure of checks failed to curb what is most certainly an over-reaching surveillance program.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Doesn't matter. You called out me and my line of discussion. And I have been talking about PRISM in isolation.

    Well that "hardly anyone" includes me and the discussion I was having and which you called out for that comment so. . .
    Fair enough.

    Further, I did say very early on in the discussion that the most disturbing aspect of this program is how our structure of checks failed to curb what is most certainly an over-reaching surveillance program.
    Yes, you did. However, doesn't that mean no "program" can be treated in isolation, particularly when the structure of checks (aka legislation) are designed so broadly as to be dragnets?

    *Or come with automatic gags due to their Classification?*

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Er, yes? Class action lawsuits exist for this very reason.
    Well, we don't have class action lawsuits.

    What prevents the ISP to change their contracts to allow them spying on you?
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  8. #68
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Do contracts have no enforcement behind them over there?
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  9. #69
    Of course, normal lawsuits. Just not "class action".
    Switzerland
    Swiss law does not allow for any form of class action. When the government proposed a new federal code of civil procedure in 2006, replacing the cantonal codes of civil procedure, it rejected the introduction of class actions, arguing that:
    [It] is alien to European legal thought to allow somebody to exercise rights on the behalf of a large number of people if these do not participate as parties in the action. ... Moreover, the class action is controversial even in its country of origin, the U.S., because it can result in significant procedural problems. ... Finally, the class action can be openly or discretely abused. The sums sued for are usually enormous, so that the respondent can be forced to concede, if they do not want to face sudden huge indebtness and insolvency (so-called legal blackmail).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_action#Switzerland

    OK, maybe I have to rephrase my statement "contracts are just a piece of paper" by "contracts are only worth as much as your (legal) possibilities to enforce them".
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  10. #70
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/15/wo...-his-fate.html

    I think we can officially call Snowden a traitor now.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  11. #71
    Cool, when I grow up, I want to be one too.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  12. #72
    Who wouldn't want to sell out their country to one of the most repressive governments in the world.

  13. #73
    More suggestion that the description of this program by the media has been highly clumsy.

    Facebook Releases Data, Including All National Security Requests

    June 14, 2013
    By Ted Ullyot, Facebook General Counsel

    Over the last week, in press statements as well as Mark’s post last Friday, we’ve repeatedly called for governments worldwide to be willing to provide more details about programs aimed at keeping the public safe. We’ve also urged them to allow companies to divulge appropriate information about government orders and requests that we receive, in a manner that does not compromise legitimate security concerns.

    Requests from law enforcement entities investigating national security-related cases are by their nature classified and highly sensitive, and the law traditionally has placed significant constraints on the ability of companies like Facebook to even confirm or acknowledge receipt of these requests – let alone provide details of our responses.

    We’ve reiterated in recent days that we scrutinize every government data request that we receive – whether from state, local, federal, or foreign governments. We’ve also made clear that we aggressively protect our users’ data when confronted with such requests: we frequently reject such requests outright, or require the government to substantially scale down its requests, or simply give the government much less data than it has requested. And we respond only as required by law.

    But particularly in light of continued confusion and inaccurate reporting related to this issue, we’ve advocated for the ability to say even more.

    Since this story was first reported, we’ve been in discussions with U.S. national security authorities urging them to allow more transparency and flexibility around national security-related orders we are required to comply with. We’re pleased that as a result of our discussions, we can now include in a transparency report all U.S. national security-related requests (including FISA as well as National Security Letters) – which until now no company has been permitted to do. As of today, the government will only authorize us to communicate about these numbers in aggregate, and as a range. This is progress, but we’re continuing to push for even more transparency, so that our users around the world can understand how infrequently we are asked to provide user data on national security grounds.

    For the six months ending December 31, 2012, the total number of user-data requests Facebook received from any and all government entities in the U.S. (including local, state, and federal, and including criminal and national security-related requests) – was between 9,000 and 10,000. These requests run the gamut – from things like a local sheriff trying to find a missing child, to a federal marshal tracking a fugitive, to a police department investigating an assault, to a national security official investigating a terrorist threat. The total number of Facebook user accounts for which data was requested pursuant to the entirety of those 9-10 thousand requests was between 18,000 and 19,000 accounts.

    With more than 1.1 billion monthly active users worldwide, this means that a tiny fraction of one percent of our user accounts were the subject of any kind of U.S. state, local, or federal U.S. government request (including criminal and national security-related requests) in the past six months. We hope this helps put into perspective the numbers involved, and lays to rest some of the hyperbolic and false assertions in some recent press accounts about the frequency and scope of the data requests that we receive.

    We will continue to be vigilant in protecting our users’ data from unwarranted government requests, and we will continue to push all governments to be as transparent as possible.

    http://newsroom.fb.com/News/636/Face...urity-Requests

  14. #74
    NSA requests aren't limited to the PRISM program, though. I'm surprised there's been no reaction/reply to the link I posted on page 2

    http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/201...-cyberwar/all/


    Would it be better to have another thread about the NSA, not dedicated to PRISM or particular programs? Or something more specific than "Checks and Balances", related to Privacy and Surveillance?

  15. #75
    Is anyone else wondering why 1.4 MILLION people have top national security clearance? Or what it means when about half of our "defense" funding goes to private contractors?

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Is anyone else wondering why 1.4 MILLION people have top national security clearance?
    Because they need it to do their jobs since the government is incredibly classification-happy and restricts all sorts of things it shouldn't.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Is anyone else wondering why 1.4 MILLION people have top national security clearance?
    Natural consequence of expanding government validating Public Choice Theory?

  18. #78
    Dread, can you be more specific about what "expanding government" means to you? Plus, I'm not clear how you're using the "public choice theory".

    The number of agencies and related funding for national security have definitely "expanded", as a consequence of 9/11. But some $70 Billion/year goes to private defense contractors (Blackwater, Lockheed Martin, etc.) and private IT/cyber contractors like Booz Allen.

    Yes Fuzzy, there's also a question about how things are classified, by whom, with which metrics --- and if too much is being over-classified. When special legislative committee members are 'briefed' on Top Secret info, but are essentially 'gagged' from discussing/debating outside that committee....that's problematic. Not just for their procedures/processes, but for the general populace and Voters.

  19. #79
    I like how you have such contempt for the word private. Almost like its a dirty word.

  20. #80
    I use italics to highlight an important word and distinguish it from other words. Sometimes I'll bold a word or use "quotation marks" instead. Yeah, there's a difference between "public" and "private".

    Hey, did you read the news that many GOVERNMENT background checks are out-sourced to for-profit/private CORPORATIONS...and allegedly some gave top-security clearance using fraudulent information? ALL CAPS don't work very well, seems like shouting.

  21. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Dread, can you be more specific about what "expanding government" means to you? Plus, I'm not clear how you're using the "public choice theory".

    The number of agencies and related funding for national security have definitely "expanded", as a consequence of 9/11. But some $70 Billion/year goes to private defense contractors (Blackwater, Lockheed Martin, etc.) and private IT/cyber contractors like Booz Allen.

    Yes Fuzzy, there's also a question about how things are classified, by whom, with which metrics --- and if too much is being over-classified. When special legislative committee members are 'briefed' on Top Secret info, but are essentially 'gagged' from discussing/debating outside that committee....that's problematic. Not just for their procedures/processes, but for the general populace and Voters.
    A private contractor being paid to do government business is still government expansion. Spend any time in the federal government and, even on the civilian side, you'll run into someone who nominally works for Northrop Grumman or some other contractor. Said contractor works full-time or almost full-time in a government office with a government e-mail and government security clearance.

    That person is almost every bit as part of the government as a "real" government employee and their personal interests very much overlap with a pureblood bureaucrat.

  22. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    A private contractor being paid to do government business is still government expansion. Spend any time in the federal government and, even on the civilian side, you'll run into someone who nominally works for Northrop Grumman or some other contractor. Said contractor works full-time or almost full-time in a government office with a government e-mail and government security clearance.

    That person is almost every bit as part of the government as a "real" government employee and their personal interests very much overlap with a pureblood bureaucrat.
    Not really, at least not according to your previous beefs with "government" that meant public employees, unions, or pensions misusing tax dollars.

    When it comes to national security/defense/military, I'm surprised that you're suddenly realizing the incestuous and monetary relationship between the "private military industrial complex", political legislators, and public policy. Where, exactly, are you placing the lion's share of responsibility and accountability....when you condemn both teh gummint AND private contractors?


  23. #83
    You think the government can't waste money on private contractors, and use private contractors to obscure the actual headcount of people working in the government? You go on to fault this relationship as "incestuous and monetary"...which is what I was saying.

    I'm not some kind of idol-worshipper of private enterprise. Private companies employed by the government are still part of the government's fisc.

  24. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    You think the government can't waste money on private contractors, and use private contractors to obscure the actual headcount of people working in the government? You go on to fault this relationship as "incestuous and monetary"...which is what I was saying.

    I'm not some kind of idol-worshipper of private enterprise. Private companies employed by the government are still part of the government's fisc.
    ANY entity can have waste, inefficiency, mismanagement, misuse of funds, even fraud or theft. The difference is whose money is being used, and for what purposes. Gov't agencies aren't designed to be for-profit enterprises like private corporations; they're not supposed to operate like 'any other' niche business that can succeed or fail, and try again.

    You may not be an idol-worshipper of private enterprise, but you do write as if all government, and most taxation, is Teh Evil. Take a look around your Manhattan neighborhood, NYC, and New York state.....with all its publicly funded infrastructure and public services. Can you keep a straight face in declaring taxes are bad while using the subways, tunnels, bridges, roads, sidewalks?

    The irony here is the number of people (like you) who think that starving government of funds (and/or agencies) will automatically make it more efficient, streamlined, better, successful. These same folks also believe that to attract the best-and-brightest means paying executives multi-million-dollar salaries, extravagant bonii, Golden Parachute retirement packages, and generous tax credits/subsidies to boot.

  25. #85
    So you can travel around half of the world nowadays when the US is searching for you. What tells us that for the future?
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  26. #86
    That some countries don't want to be seen as helping the US? And the US isn't going to start an international incident by killing the guy on foreign soil?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #87
    You're searching for reasons I was asking for consequences.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  28. #88
    So here's a novel twist. The defense team of a guy charged with robbery are demanding that the NSA *which is part of and under the US government* hand over phone records which they believe may disprove the case the local prosecution *also a part of and under the US government* is making against their client. http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/201...ks_secret.html

    What I think is particularly amusing about this is that if the NSA ends up able and having to comply, they can also be requested/required to demonstrate how they (and consequently the judge/jury) knows the evidence provided is accurate. And if they don't comply (which is what will probably happen) the defense has great grounds for appeal, in that the government prosecuting their client is refusing to hand over potentially exonerating evidence in the government's possession, a very blatant violation of basic due diligence protections which the courts have been strongly upholding for decades. The NSA is now on the hook to either publicly testify about the records they gather and how or for overturning bunches and bunches of criminal convictions.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  29. #89
    Is it just a Hail Mary because they know the NSA won't comply or is there a reason to believe there's any exonerating evidence?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #90
    A fed judge already decided that the records should be produced, if they are not a risk to national security, and on the 18th gave the government 2 days to respond.

    https://www.courthousenews.com/2013/06/18/58597.htm

    Haven't heard an update since.


    EDIT:
    Government responded, claiming they don't have the information the defendant is seeking:
    http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/201...ry-suspect-nsa

    I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit on not having the information, but the way this place works, as soon as that information is used in a defense, its going to be used as a dragnet to prosecute people.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

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