I wasn't referring to PRISM. I was referring to Snowden's revelations about exact spying techniques used against the EU, China, and Russia. OG seems to think the public has a right to know those details.
I wasn't referring to PRISM. I was referring to Snowden's revelations about exact spying techniques used against the EU, China, and Russia. OG seems to think the public has a right to know those details.
Hope is the denial of reality
I actually think it has. The public can't look into every document, that would clearly contradict the very idea it. But the public has the very right to define the bounds and means of the agencies. And therefore they have the rights to know any violation of those bounds.
It's easily possible to leak such violation without leaking the actually classified information.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Shame that Snowden revealed the actual details, including the exact tools and places used to gather the information. I fail to see how the public has a right to know those details.
Hope is the denial of reality
Depends on the tools and places. Are they within or outside the legal bounds.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Relevant Congressional Committees have oversight. There are also no constitutional prohibitions about spying on foreigners.
Hope is the denial of reality
If you trust them.Originally Posted by Loki
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
How can something be illegal if Congress approves and it doesn't violate the Constitution?
Hope is the denial of reality
Is just not illegal where we are setting the bar?
Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita
Do you think the public needs to know all the dirty details of diplomacy and espionage? Perhaps we can have a public file with all the people on the CIA payroll?
Hope is the denial of reality
Sigh...okay Professor Extreme...
Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita
What Snowden did was only one step removed from this...
Hope is the denial of reality
I, for one, would actually prefer there not to be so much dirt.
Not if its not been authorised.What you're saying is that democracies shouldn't engage in espionage or engage in any non-public agreements.
I don't know anyone shocked by the notion the USA may be spying on Russia, terrorists etc - but spying on Americans (explicitly told no to Congress) and European embassies was news.
If America wants to say "we will be spying on everyone including our allies and our own citizens" then this wouldn't be news, but that's not being said. So don't get pissed off when someone reveals its happening.
It was all authorized by the relevant Congressional committees...
I'm sure the Russians and Chinese would happy to hear that. It would make their own spying programs all the more effective.
Hope is the denial of reality
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/03/wo...e/snowden.html
Clearly NSA intelligence isn't as good as people claim.
Hope is the denial of reality
Well said. As I see it, intelligence services are a necessary evil. So let's keep this evil as small as possible (necessary).
We can't use oppressive regimes as standard for our acting. Same could be do about child labor or torture, wait you do the latter too.I'm sure the Russians and Chinese would happy to hear that.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Why are you conflating what countries do to their own people and what they do to other governments?
Hope is the denial of reality
The NSA spies on it's own people. And other countries people. Governments spying on each other is not that much of my concern, actually.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Can I get a source on that please because I quoted the opposite earlier and you've not rebutted it this entire time.
If its all authorised why did Clapper lie?Source I quoted earlier
“I do think that when history looks at this, they are going to contrast the behavior of James Clapper, our national intelligence director, with Edward Snowden,” Paul told CNN’s Candy Crowley. “Mr. Clapper lied in Congress, in defiance of the law, in the name of security. Mr. Snowden told the truth in the name of privacy. So I think there will be a judgment, because both of them broke of the law.”
Clapper was asked by Oregon senator Ron Wyden in a March congressional hearing whether the government was collecting “any type of data at all on millions of Americans.” He responded, “No, sir.”
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...ata-collection
So, you may commit perjury in front of congress, you just have to be "sorry".
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Why is the US government (and Loki) so keen on prosecuting Snowden but not Clapper?
They both broke the law so why is only one the devil incarnate?
I'm a Conservative/libertarian not a fan of big government so I sympathise with this completely. If Big Government is lying about its actions then I sympathise with someone telling the truth - via the media."It was seeing a continuing litany of lies from senior officials to Congress - and therefore the American people - and the realization that that Congress, specifically the Gang of Eight, wholly supported the lies that compelled me to act. Seeing someone in the position of James Clapper - the Director of National Intelligence - baldly lying to the public without repercussion is the evidence of a subverted democracy. The consent of the governed is not consent if it is not informed."
Much of Loki's arguments seem to be around the lines of "it inconveniences big government". So do organisations campaigning for reform/abolition of the IRS but you wouldn't see the government/IRS persecuting them would you? Oh wait ...
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1...ll-return-home
The Bolivian president's plane was forced to divert to Austria after it was denied airspace over a rumour Edward Snowden was on board, sparking a row.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I think it's more or less a "us" and "them" thinking. If you cheer for a football team and one of "your" players uses his hands to score it's an act of "the hand of god" if it was a player of the opposite team you want him to see red and go of the field.
But as a football fan you need to have a blind and unconditional trust in your own team to be so fanatic to even defend your own teams mistakes. I don't have blind faith in my team (my government). I do trust them, but not blindly.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Furthermore it is quite irrelevant whether what they did was legal or not in the US, some of this data gathering took place outside their jurisdiction. In fact US agency broke laws of many countries so in essence US government is the criminal, several other countries are victims and Snowden is the witness that came forward to report the crime. And before you say it, yes I know every country is spying on every other country and its allies but it is some real lunacy that the country caught spying is outraged that countries it was spying on wont hand over the guy who revealed it all.
Loki's beef is that it shows disloyalty and (in his view) jeopardizes national security (which is for all practical purposes Loki's god). When it comes to national security, an individual can do no right that goes against the wishes and actions of the govt.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Loyalty is a two-way street. I'd consider lying to Congress/Parliament to be disloyal too which is why its rightly illegal. Snowden's disloyalty came after Clapper's.
I'm curious if those persecuted by the IRS for daring to campaign against the IRS falls within the same category of inconveniencing the apparatchiks must be stopped.
I believe the government is there to serve the people not the other way around. I'm confused as I thought Loki believed that too.
Loki, you didn't express the same attitude in the Checks and Balances thread (where NSA challenges began, citing 'oversight' from congress).
I don't have a problem with arresting Clapper for lying to Congress.
Hope is the denial of reality
I'm not personally interested in being the top dog at all costs.
You'd prefer to allow the intelligence services of hostile countries to do as they will? Clearly that would not be a threat to our freedom or well-being.
Hope is the denial of reality
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