Cat and Mouse dilemma

[GGT]

Not funny, like Tom 'n Jerry cartoons.

One of my son's friends has a pet komodo dragon that eats mice. Feeder mice, bought from the pet store. The reptile was fed, and an "extra" mouse was on hand, waiting to be prey. My kid took pity on the mouse, named him Charles, and brought him home.

He constructed a 'cage' in a clear plastic container, put cedar chips on the floor, and punched cracks in the lid for air circulation. He put in a footie sock (as a sleeping bag), an empty cardboard toilet paper roll and a cotton Q-tip (for entertainment). Plus a tiny bowl of water, some lettuce and carrot shreds, and bits of cracker dipped in peanut butter (for nutrition).

He took care of "Charles" for a couple of days this way, on the sly....until he was called away from home for the next week, and was forced to enlist my help. I was ready to put some breakfast bacon in his box, until the Gremlin instructions were blurted on his way out --- no citrus, no meat, no whole peanuts. Gee, thanks?

Charles is a cute little bugger. Pure white, pink eyes, translucent ears, with twitching whiskers flowering his busy little nose. Smart, too. He climbs to the internal grip moldings and tries to launch to the lid, or moves the TP roll around like a bridge to reach the lid.....

Long story short, since Charles made his presence 'known', our two housecats have been hovering over the container, trying to find their way in, or knock it over to dislodge the lid. It's been sort of nice to see their feline hunting instincts kick in (they haven't been so bright and nimble in ages) but it's not a sustainable situation.

I can probably keep Charles alive for the week....but after that, no idea. My son's under the impression that feeder mice can become housepets and live for 3-4 years. My internet searches haven't been very helpful. Any advice?

HELP!

[LittleFuzzy]

Your son is right in that there is very little inherent difference between a "feeder" mouse and one intended to be a pet. If you're going to let the kid try and keep him, get the mouse checked out by the vet. Feeder mice are often kept in unsanitary conditions and if it was there's a decent chance it's picked up something that would significantly reduce its already short lifespan. And definitely, definitely invest in a stronger and sturdier environment for it. It us unlikely the cats are going to stop.

[GGT]

I am NOT going to take the mouse to the Vet for a check-up. What would that entail, anyway? Taking a blood sample and running a complete rodent chemistry assay? Seriously?

We used to have a glass cage for our pet anole....who, BTW, gave my older son a raging staph skin infection that came close to needing IV antibiotics/hospitalization. Needless to say, the anole died, and I didn't want another pet reptile. But I did use the cage and gravel for a plant terrarium (until the glass panels broke and found their way to the curb for recycling).

Do people take their komodo dragons, or other reptiles to the Vet for check-ups?

Do people take their gerbils, hamsters, and guinea pigs to the Vet for check-ups?

[Loki]

Why would someone get a pet if they had no intention of taking care of it?

[LittleFuzzy]

Well the large lizards can be a pretty expensive purchase so I would expect yes, they do even ignoring the large and growing "pets as family" culture of pet-ownership. And hey, if you want to let him keep it and roll the dice, look for a teachable moment, or just don't care then go right ahead. For myself, I think if you're not willing to do your best to provide care for something then you shouldn't take it in at all but I know plenty of people who think the same about me and my reluctance toward euthanizing.

[GGT]

I am trying to take good care of this new "pet". Just not convinced that "best care" means using (expensive) Veterinarian services.

[LittleFuzzy]

I find it hard to reconcile "best care" and a denial of the use or efficacy of even a physical examination by someone who actually has any training in non-human biology/physiology.

It is certainly not economical to pay for any sort of veterinary attention for a mouse. Mice are cheap, it makes way more sense to let 'em die and just buy another. For that matter you can probably always find a new kitten or puppy for less money than you'll spend on any immunizations and booster shots, much less things like heart-worm medicine or real care if the pet ever does get sick. I think it's probable that the price of getting a new non-endangered organism will always be cheaper than the cost of keeping a prior organism healthy over the course of its life.

[Loki]

Couldn't have phrased that better myself. Now this isn't GGT's pet, so it's unfair to criticize her for not wanting to spend money on it, but the very idea that someone would get a pet and then refuse to provide it basic medical care is very troubling.

[wiggin]

For the record, I absolutely love how it's legal to have this level of neglect for pets. You should see the incredibly rigid regime I have to follow in dealing with lab animals. They're checked by vets or vet techs daily, kept in tightly controlled near-quarantine conditions with defined temperature, humidity, light cycles, food, bedding, and 'enrichment'. And if I want to do anything with them - far more harmless than having predators pawing at their cages - I have to go through a multi-month approval process.

But hey, they're just pets, eh?

[Timbuk2]

Gee, do the cats not have no-go areas in the house? Rooms which are always kept shut?

We kept no-go rooms for the cats we had - two of the upstairs bedrooms.

Cats are tenacious, they'll keep at it until Charlie becomes din-dins. His cage needs to be where the cats can't be.

[GGT]

For the record, I absolutely love how it's legal to have this level of neglect for pets. You should see the incredibly rigid regime I have to follow in dealing with lab animals. They're checked by vets or vet techs daily, kept in tightly controlled near-quarantine conditions with defined temperature, humidity, light cycles, food, bedding, and 'enrichment'. And if I want to do anything with them - far more harmless than having predators pawing at their cages - I have to go through a multi-month approval process.

But hey, they're just pets, eh?

Accusations of neglect and harmful treatment for a mouse....who was going to be dinner for a komodo dragon....until my kid brought him home? And comparing a pet environment to controlled testing environments for lab animals? WTF!

Gee, do the cats not have no-go areas in the house? Rooms which are always kept shut?

We kept no-go rooms for the cats we had - two of the upstairs bedrooms.

Cats are tenacious, they'll keep at it until Charlie becomes din-dins. His cage needs to be where the cats can't be.

The cats have run of the house, but we often close doors to certain rooms to keep them out as needed. It's been a pretty calm transition so far -- my cats are lazy couch potatoes. (I'd even asked here for ideas on how to get them to exercise more, since neither will wear a harness or leash to walk outside, and they lose interest in 'toys' pretty fast.) His cage was in my room last night, and the cats completely ignored him.

The 'cage' he came home in was basically the feeder mice storage bin, only meant to keep mice for a couple of days until feeding time. So I went to our local pet supply store today, talked with the manager a while (yes, cute little feeder mice often get 'rescued' and adopted, can live about 3 years as a house pet, and become tame enough to interact with and hold).

Charles now has proper mouse food--a mixture of grains and nuts--some chew sticks to gnaw on, fresh cedar bedding, and a rodent ball. Plus a much larger bin with better aeration/circulation. He also has a topsy-turvy ball with a feather on top, for climbing and balancing, along with his paper tubes. He likes to burrows in the sock for naps. I added a small castle sculpture with tiny windows at various heights that my son made in grade school, and he takes his seeds in there and climbs out the top



The rodent ball was interesting. Charles immediately walked it around the floor, like second nature, and the cats ran away and hid.

[wiggin]

Accusations of neglect and harmful treatment for a mouse....who was going to be dinner for a komodo dragon....until my kid brought him home? And comparing a pet environment to controlled testing environments for lab animals? WTF!

If one is going to take responsibility for an animal, one should take responsibility for it. Food is food, but those animals aren't tortured by being harassed by predators all day, they're just eaten quickly.

The point I was trying to make is that there's two reasons lab animals have such strict rules. One reason - by far the lesser reason - is to make sure you have repeatable, controlled experiments with good data. The biggest reason, though, is to take care of the animals appropriately, and to follow the basic rules of animal research (reduce, replace, refine). We have to treat animals well because of ethics, not research reasons. And those ethics apply to lab animals as much as they apply to pets. We have a responsibility either way.

[RandBlade]

If you Google it you may find a local vet that specialises in "small animals" as well as your more usual cats, dogs etc. We have a pet rabbit which can be taken to a vet - important for them to get immunisation to myxomatosis. We found via Google a local vet in town who advertised on their website that they look after all small animals too eg rabbits, gerbils, hamsters and mice were specifically mentioned IIRC. While the fees for cats and dogs can run into hundreds, for a check up for the rabbit (plus the jab) was only a few minutes and a few pounds. Very reasonable.

[GGT]

If one is going to take responsibility for an animal, one should take responsibility for it. Food is food, but those animals aren't tortured by being harassed by predators all day, they're just eaten quickly.

Wow, now I'm torturing the mouse?!

The bin was a temporary case of hard plastic (not a wire cage) with no way for cat claws or noses to reach inside, or have any direct contact. Like I said, his first couple of days were spent in my son's bedroom, with the door closed to cats. That may work when a boy spends hours in his room, doting on a new pet.... but it wasn't going to work with him out-of-town, and it seemed cruel to keep isolated there, with sporadic 'visits' for food and water.

Look, I may not know much about rodent care, but I'm not stupid or mean, FFS. I never left Charles alone with the cats, and I certainly didn't let them "harass" the little guy "all day", either.

The point I was trying to make is that there's two reasons lab animals have such strict rules. One reason - by far the lesser reason - is to make sure you have repeatable, controlled experiments with good data. The biggest reason, though, is to take care of the animals appropriately, and to follow the basic rules of animal research (reduce, replace, refine). We have to treat animals well because of ethics, not research reasons. And those ethics apply to lab animals as much as they apply to pets. We have a responsibility either way.

Oh yeah, your point was crystal clear. You called me an irresponsible and unethical animal caretaker.

[wiggin]

It doesn't matter if the cats can actually eat the little guy, it matters that he's aware they're there. That's an obvious recipe for animal distress.

I don't think you're being intentionally cruel, but I do think that you didn't think this through appropriately. Many pet owners don't.


There's a reason that I'm not a pet owner, and it's largely because I'm not comfortable with the significant cost and responsibility that comes with it.

[Loki]

If mice are anything like rabbits, they can actually die from fear alone.

[RandBlade]

If mice are anything like rabbits, they can actually die from fear alone.

Many animals (especially small ones) can.

[GGT]

It doesn't matter if the cats can actually eat the little guy, it matters that he's aware they're there. That's an obvious recipe for animal distress.

I don't think you're being intentionally cruel, but I do think that you didn't think this through appropriately. Many pet owners don't.

Now you've entered the parenting arena, and passed your judgement there, too?

Did you miss the part of the story explaining that my son made an *impulsive* decision to rescue a feeder mouse -- intended as *food* for a reptile that wouldn't eat it -- from his friend who wouldn't take care of the mouse?

Maybe my missive wasn't clear, but the other boy only sees mice as food for his pet komodo dragon. He only *buys* mice as MREs, and doesn't house or feed any *extras*. I understood my son's rationale that way -- saving Charles from active neglect and starvation, treated like a perishable good, thrown in the trash on its expiration date.

There's a reason that I'm not a pet owner, and it's largely because I'm not comfortable with the significant cost and responsibility that comes with it.

Then Good Luck with parenthood, if you go that route. Kids bring home stray kittens and lost puppies....injured birds, found turtles....goldfish won at fairs or amusement parks. (They're not all the same, of course!) But this wasn't a wild mouse found in the kitchen or basement, and he couldn't be "freed" by being set loose in the yard, either.

This situation was hampered by inconvenient timing, and my son being out of town at the same time he brought home a new pet! Otherwise, we would have had that adult/child conversation about responsibility and humane treatment for pets (that begins before the pet is brought home).

If mice are anything like rabbits, they can actually die from fear alone.

Yeah, like I said, I'm not stupid. But Charles dealt with plenty of "fear" long before he landed in our home. From his 'harvesting' and transportation methods, to pet store, to komodo dragon cage, he had tons of environmental sounds and scents that could have been perceived threats (and scared him to death).

[RandBlade]

What kind of pet store provides fear to the animals equivalent to a giant predator of it attacking its cage trying to eat it?

[GGT]

Generally speaking, feeder mice are treated like crickets, worms, or any other live food source. They're not given special treatment.

[Ominous Gamer]

What kind of pet store provides fear to the animals equivalent to a giant predator of it attacking its cage trying to eat it?

you've never been in American pet shop. they are put in glass cages only a couple of inches/feet off the ground. its all day tapping, screaming, banging and pointing. The more expensive the animal the higher up its placed, and feeder mice are cheapest by far.

Generally speaking, feeder mice are treated like crickets, worms, or any other live food source. They're not given special treatment.

my feeder mice froze a lot better than any crickets or worms I know of

[RandBlade]

Concerning but not exactly a natural predator trying to get its claws inside the cage.

[Veldan Rath]

Wow, while I love a good pile up on GGT like any good Libertarian, this seems excessive.

She has pointed out repeatedly that the new pet arrival caught her by surprise and has banned the cats from the room. She has or will be getting the correct cage for the critter.

Heave to a bit there gang.

[GGT]

Gee, thanks for that, Veldan. :

And thanks for the "advice" from those who've never actually had pets, let alone children bringing home 'rescued' pets. Y'all helped me feel more confident with my own pet experiences, where every animal has its 'predator', but that doesn't preclude a multi-pet household. Dogs and cats. Cats and fish. Fish and birds. Birds and rodents. Rodents and cats.


I not only managed to keep Charles alive for the week...but got fairly attached. As did Guini the cat. She learned that peanut butter meant a treat for Charles, and followed me to 'participate' in the event, sometimes falling asleep while waiting for him to finally smell and find it. She likes to sit next to his cage and patiently wait for "nose kisses", where they briefly smell one another by touching noses, then go their own way. I've seen her keep the more aggressive Isabel at bay, and Isabel deciding Charles is nothing but an entertaining distraction, like birds outside the window. Turns out she likes the bin more than the mouse inside...and sleeps on top of it, even though Charles has a different cage.

So it all worked out just fine. I may even splurge on $6 of Timothy hay.....

[GGT]

In hindsight, I'd have titled this thread differently. Plenty of 'pet' animal households need to consider any new critter, and how they'll affect general family dynamics. Cats and Dogs tend to view themselves as part of the human family, with territorial responses to assert their positions in the hierarchy. Pretty hard to do if domesticated cats and dogs weren't exposed to kittens, puppies, bunnies, birds, guinea pigs, hamsters or mice during their "formative years".

However, it's quite possible to teach old dogs (or cats) new tricks. Mouse Charles has turned out to be just what our sedentary senior house cats needed, short of introducing a puppy.

[Elanya Rodillia]

I'm a vet tech and I wouldn't recommend taking the mouse to get checked out right away. If it develops problems, sure, but not until then. Even if you took it to a vet, doing anything more than just looking at it would probably be more stressful than it's worth. I'd say keep the cats away from the cage at all times, but other than that I think you've done fine.

[GGT]

Thanks for the input. No problems with Mr. Charles...he seems quite happy in his cage, caged within our house. He's on his third exercise wheel. Turns out he liked to poop and pee while he ran, and the fancier plastic "ferris wheels" have to be cleaned almost daily or they turn into a latrine that smells like hell.

We also got him a better water bottle, and removed the secondary water dish after being alerted that mice have drowned in those. He's been a really fun and endearing addition to our home. His weekly cage cleaning has become an "event" that both cat and mouse seem to enjoy.

He's shown evidence that he can distinguish human voices. Smart little rodent. Still working on human fingers/hands, petting, and holding without nipping.


Also, Happy Birthday, Elanya!

[Elanya Rodillia]

Yay! I'm glad that everyone (including you ) is getting along.

A tip on not nipping... they don't see things right in front of their mouth very well, so if you give him a treat it should be offered in an open hand instead of holding it with your thumb and fingers. That way they don't get used to biting at fingers.

Mice and rats can definitely be smarter than people think. Rats can even learn to do tricks, and make pretty good pets. Unfortunately, rats actually live even shorter than mice - typically only 2-3 years.


And thanks for the birthday wishes! The yearly "Happy Birthday from The World Forgotten" email generally manages to spur me into making at least a brief appearance.

[GGT]

Yeah, it was pretty clear that Charles' eyesight wasn't so great. He's an albino, after all. We are trying to teach him to trust human fingers by using treats, slowly moving from scents to other sensations....like being on a human palm. It took a while to find the right "treat". At first it was peanut butter on a Goldfish cracker, but he figured out how to take that into his "loft" and nibble on it over time. We've had better results with Chinese fortune cookie bits. He loves 'em. And without the peanut butter, he's slowly learning to love the hand that feeds him.



Also, please don't wait for birthday emails to post