Seems legit.
Seems legit.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Seems legit? I miss the part where it says that the 'Current program' has lapsed and that there actually is no plan of agreement.
What it actually says is ; "Should we accept an offer that has been withdrawn?"
Congratulations America
Seems legit in the sense that it does not seem legit.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
The funny thing is though that as Tsipras is campaigning for a no-vote he's also offering the troika to accept it. Forked tongue much ?Originally Posted by Steely Glint
Congratulations America
Or forked brain.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Yeah I got the impression you were being sarcastic there Steely. The idiotic thing is that despite being in default SYRIZA are still being the have cake, eat cake and lose weight party. Apparently to them a No still doesn't mean Grexit and the EZ will come back with a better offer. Idiots.
Incredibly weird article on the BBC: Why Greece's richest village is voting 'yes'
It is a really interesting article on how a village was transformed by the EU, from the perspective of the ex-mayor of the village. Until the final two paragraphs when oddly the ex-mayor reveals at the end he's voting No. But he'd never vote to leave the Euro. Seriously WTF? I wonder how many Greeks could be as ignorant as to vote No and be shocked by a Grexit?
Greece holds definitive referendum on Christ knows what: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/i...-2015070399871
I'm getting sick and tired of comments that tell us this referendum is Greece defying the bureaucrats. If anything the bureaucrats have protected Greece against being cut off for the last couple of years. The general feeling in the creditor nations is that they're not worth the bother. If you'd have a referendum on whether or not there should be a deal with Greece in a whole slew of nations, the answer would be a loud NO. Not some wishy washy 50 no but a 75% no.
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Polls have closed.
Congratulations America
So if Greece votes No then it's chips on the table time. I think the Europeans should walk away and let Grexit happen. Many here think the Europeans will bend over backwards to avoid that and so will fold. In which case Tsipiras will have played a blinder and the Euro leaders will be the incompetent ones.
I don't think that will happen though. I'd lose all remaining respect if they fold to Syriza after this. Some think Europe can't afford to lose Greece, I think after a No they can't afford not to.
If Greece descends into the abyss, the Greek people will have absolutely no one to blame but themselves. They won't even be able to blame their politicians this time around. They'd have voted for insanity in two consecutive elections.
Hope is the denial of reality
It may be rational to jump into the abyss. The IMF previously said they'd help transition Greece through Grexit, that could be the right move to take.
If if they had a sane Thatcher/Reagan style leader. Problem is they have the opposite.
Strong No vote. Over 60% No after 18% counted.
Landslide No victory. Germany should seriously say "ok we tried to help, good luck on your own" and walk away.
I agree and I seriously hope the wet blankets in Paris and Rome will be outvoted.
I don't want to be part of a EU that has no rules on one side and transfers on the other side.
Congratulations America
Okay so is there any legal way for the other members to expel Greece from either the Euro or the EU?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
I wonder what exactly countries like Argentina and Iceland did different.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Iceland managed their situation far better. They allowed the banks to fail, bailed out their citizens (rather than the banks themselves) and allowed foreign depositors and investors to be burnt. Good. I don't see why Icelanders ought to pay for the greed of my fellow citizens who sought out higher interest rates in a foreign bank. Greece have nationalised what would have been losses for Germans and others.
Argentina is still technically in default.
Hope is the denial of reality
That's what I don't quite get about the whole thing - the money is gone, one way or the other. A proper debt cut (several years ago, mind!) would have been more honest.
At least then we could've said: Alright, your debts are gone. Now, it's your turn to work things out.
Instead we have this idiotic situation where everyone is searching for the culprit among their opponents.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
http://www.theguardian.com/business/...s-still-needed
Time to invent time-travelIMF: austerity measures would still leave Greece with unsustainable debt
Secret documents show creditors’ baseline estimate puts debt at 118% of GDP in 2030, even if it signs up to all tax and spending reforms demanded by troika
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
The debt levels are irrelevant to the current situation given that interest on that debt is ridiculously low.
By the way, I'm wondering, what prevents Greece from printing drachmas while still retaining the euro? It's just a new form of debt, and only Greeks would be obligated to accept it as legal tender.
Hope is the denial of reality
They have no presses for printing drachmas, had to get rid of them when they joined the Euro. Re. debt levels if they are irrelevant then what's the point of writing up a report on whether or not they're sustainable?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Call them bonds. Force Greeks to accept them. Put a lot into the economy.
Ask the IMF? They're good at writing reports.
Hope is the denial of reality
Meanwhile, in UKIP-land, Nigel Farage opines; "EU project is now dying. It's fantastic to see the courage of the Greek people in the face of political and economic bullying from Brussels."
No.
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Yes and no, a write down would be more honest.
However, given that the Greeks aren't paying actual interest on the debt nor paying down on the principal the debt can not be what causes Greece's problems. In the long run, that is when the vacation is over, the debt burden on Greece is actually less than on countries that went through a similar painful process.
What is extremely scary though is that Greece has no inclination of fixing its economy or fiscal policies.
A write-down today thus just is a pat on the back for Greece, almost encouraging it to run up a debt again that we will pay back. And Greece will be able to run up that debt because everybody knows that the rest of Europe is going to pay anyway.
And on a note of principle; do you want to be in a situation where the proud people of Greece can 'democratically' decide about your money ?
Last edited by Hazir; 07-06-2015 at 10:01 AM.
Congratulations America
Well, we can also democratically decide to not give them any more money.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Which is basically what our elected representatives are already telling them. You seriously mean we need a referendum about that? I consider it an utter waste of money to organise a vote on what we already know. There is very little support for money to Greece, there is virtually no support for unconditional money to the Greeks. Even the useful idiots of Die Linke wouldn't dare offering money without conditions.
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