Windows 10

[Aimless]

What's funny of course is that businesses and other enterprise users get to opt out

[Khendraja'aro]

Sometimes the aspies in IT forget that the main purpose of IT is to make life better for the user and that anything that has a negative impact on usability must be carefully weighed against the expected gain.

Again: I think an empty bank account is a slightly bigger problem than 30 minutes of lost time.

What's funny of course is that businesses and other enterprise users get to opt out

Maybe that's because they're actually paying IT guys. Again, I've seen enough Trojans, Worms and viruses to last a lifetime. For instance, this one cropped up repeatedly:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus_(malware)

[Ominous Gamer]

Yep, upgrade broke the sound drivers, Nvidia surround works horribly now (taskbar won't stay locked, windows no longer dock to a full single screen), and my PlayStation Eye isn't recognized.

[littlelolligagged]

I think I like it, so far.

Upgrading on my PC with media center was a pain in the ass, though. It wanted me to confirm I knew it would be gotten rid of, but wouldn't let me click it or move on. I finally just kept my files and not my settings/apps. Which has led to all sorts of irritation.

[Aimless]

Again: I think an empty bank account is a slightly bigger problem than 30 minutes of lost time.



Maybe that's because they're actually paying IT guys. Again, I've seen enough Trojans, Worms and viruses to last a lifetime. For instance, this one cropped up repeatedly:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus_(malware)

Ahahaha "30 minutes of lost time", you're a real hoot khen, have you ever considered self-publishing your fiction?

[RandBlade]

Rand, then you also don't get to complain when a page you want to use goes down due to a DDOS. Because this attitude of yours is what makes them possible in the first place.

"Herp, I'm so smart, derp!"

In fact, I'd really like to see it when ISPs all over the world took down customers' access when they begin to spew forth crap.

Have you seen me complain?

In fact quite the opposite. It is the official advice of our software supplier that clients should not install OS updates until they've been tested thoroughly in the field. It is the official policy of my company to reject updates from our supplier as well until they've been tested in the field for stability. The last major OS software update crashed the systems for those who adapted it on release. For me stability comes first. Your anal attitude assumes that the risk of a problem due to security is greater than the risk of a problem due to a bad update, in my experience it is not. But keep being a moron if you please.

What's funny of course is that businesses and other enterprise users get to opt out

Because nobody ever works from home on a home licence, as is perfectly legal. Nobody at home could ever have the same concerns that businesses and other enterprise users do, could they?

Again: I think an empty bank account is a slightly bigger problem than 30 minutes of lost time.

Good for you. That is why in any sane system you get to decide your priorities.

Considering accessing my bank account requires a physical chip and pin card reader that operates separate to my PC and does not rely upon a password or anything else that can be key-tracked I'm not as bothered as you are. I don't trust my Operating System to maintain my security. Any bank that can be cleared with a username and password is absurd.

The job of an Operating System is to be stable first and foremost above every other concern, security comes second.
The job of Security hardware and software is to provide additional security.

This is why Windows XP was such a success that it was still around a decade and four Operating Systems later. It was not secure but it was stable.

[Khendraja'aro]

Ahahaha "30 minutes of lost time", you're a real hoot khen, have you ever considered self-publishing your fiction?

If you're taking more than 30 minutes then you're doing it wrong. Never heard of backups?

[RandBlade]

Bullshit. Same can be said of your so-called "security" concerns. Have backups to restore and real security.

If an automatic update breaks working software then it can take more than half an hour to identify the clash, update the software and get it all up and running again. Especially if the update is irreversible and you're using software from a supplier then it can take days or weeks to get a software update fixing the break that was caused by the initial update. If you're using legacy software (or a system built upon it) then it may not even be possible to get a fix.

If you want to be an ignoramus who assumes that updates are always benign and magically perfect then fine. The rest of us have some real world experience that you must obviously be lacking in.

If you pay a fortune for an enterprise licence then you can be treated apparently like an only semi-blithering idiot compelled to do changes whether you want to or not eventually but not immediately. If you're a home user though then no you mustn't have two brain cells to rub together to make a choice.

[Ominous Gamer]

real world experience that you must obviously be lacking in.

If you're a home user though then no you mustn't have two brain cells to rub together to make a choice.

I work with these home users 40 hours a week. Microsoft has a long history of real world experience in making this decision to take the update process out of people's hands. They've made the right call, even if the choices were between a turd sandwich and giant douche. You can pull your tired grumpy old man routine as hard as you want, but the fact remains that there is a way to delay/disable updating if you're that paranoid and know how to use windows. Which I think is a safe middle ground to keep those that don't know how a computer works from changing a setting they shouldn't be touching.

This has a great parallel to the human immunizations thread.

[earthJoker]

Sorry, but you can't say what the job of an operating system is unless you define what you use it for. What suits well for a embedded computer of a washing machine might not be the best choice for a firewall.

I wouldn't really use Windows XP for a firewall and I haven't seen any XP based firewalls around.

[RandBlade]

I work with these home users 40 hours a week.

And I work 40 hours a week too. Everyone has their own experiences and their own priorities.

Microsoft has a long history of real world experience in making this decision to take the update process out of people's hands.

They also have a long history of flawed updates which is why so many refuse to update immediately. Or in the case of Windows 8 - refuse to update at all.

This has a great parallel to the human immunizations thread.

No it doesn't. It would have a great parallel to an untested medicine being compulsorily given to everyone globally without warning and without going through any form of independent testing, just on the say-so of a drugs company. Without paying any attention to other medicines being used or whether they're compatible or not.

Sorry, but you can't say what the job of an operating system is unless you define what you use it for. What suits well for a embedded computer of a washing machine might not be the best choice for a firewall.

I wouldn't really use Windows XP for a firewall and I haven't seen any XP based firewalls around.

Absolutely well said. The end-user knows better than someone in Seattle what they're using the software for.

[Khendraja'aro]

Quite often the end-user doesn't know anything. Or how exactly do you explain the armies of zombie machines?

And, yes, that includes your precious companies.

[Ominous Gamer]

why so many refuse to update immediately. Or in the case of Windows 8 - refuse to update at all.

gonna need you to quantify this. Windows 10 launched in 190 countries yesterday. Many would be a great deal of people I don't see materializing, because MANY people don't know or give two shits on how their computer works.

[RandBlade]

Quite often the end-user doesn't know anything. Or how exactly do you explain the armies of zombie machines?

And, yes, that includes your precious companies.

So what? Quite often they do. Your point is?

Nobody is saying the default setting should not be set to auto-update. That has been the default for a long time and not just for MS but for iOS, Android as well as software like Chrome, Firefox, Flash etc

The question is whether people should have a choice to change the default in how they control their machine.

Oh and companies expand to Microsoft who apparently to you are 100% perfect, infallible and omnipotent.

gonna need you to quantify this. Windows 10 launched in 190 countries yesterday. Many would be a great deal of people I don't see materializing, because MANY people don't know or give two shits on how their computer works.

Everyone in the world has Windows 10 now do they? Or have some chosen to delay updating?

I know lots of people who have deliberately made the decision not to update to Windows 10 until they hear independently that it is working well. Including unless I'm misunderstanding you ... you yourself.

Windows 10 launches 7/29, so you got the date right. Those eligible for a free upgrade should start seeing the notification icon in their task bar. In an effort to distance myself from Creative and their Audigy line I'm using some tweaked/hacked drivers to get Dolby Digital via optical out via my motherboard. That already requires to me to run Windows 8 in "test mode" so I'm going to wait a bit to see how people say its handled in Windows 10.

I say you have the right to wait a bit. Khen is saying you shouldn't. I'm saying I trust people to make their own decision to do what they find is right for themselves and take responsibility for that, he is saying Microsoft is infallible and knows absolutely best for absolutely everyone in absolutely all circumstances.

[Ominous Gamer]

Including unless I'm misunderstanding you ... you yourself.

Updated 2 machines yesterday, including my main rig with lots of custom out of the ordinary stuff, as I said in this very thread.

But I love the touch of downgrading from "many" to "some"

I say you have the right to wait a bit. Khen is saying you shouldn't. I'm saying I trust people to make their own decision to do what they find is right for themselves and take responsibility for that, he is saying Microsoft is infallible and knows absolutely best for absolutely everyone in absolutely all circumstances.

Yes, you two remind me of my kids. One is cocksure yet almost completely oblivious to how the real world works, and the other loves to point out how ridiculous that looks and sounds to everyone else.

Sorry, but you can't say what the job of an operating system is unless you define what you use it for.

Which is why there are 8 versions of Windows 10, not including the N editions.

[earthJoker]

Absolutely well said. The end-user knows better than someone in Seattle what they're using the software for.

Well, you still defined the job of an OS. That stability is more important than security. But that's not always the case. As soon as you use your computer to do online banking I would suggest you to put security first.

Quite often the end-user doesn't know anything. Or how exactly do you explain the armies of zombie machines?

And, yes, that includes your precious companies.

Yes quite often. And often he does. You can't turn of a nuclear power plan for a half an hour just because you have to do a security update. You need other means of security.

[Aimless]

Look you dickmunchers if I can easily disable the update service manually I'm happy enough.

[Ominous Gamer]

You can, turn on the metered internet option.


I'm using a Sony Playstation Eye, connected to a Windows 10 machine, talking to Cortona (a carry over from the Windows Phone and based on an Xbox video game character) and having her/it open Steam. All with voice commands.

The future is bitching.

[Flixy]

Yes quite often. And often he does. You can't turn of a nuclear power plan for a half an hour just because you have to do a security update. You need other means of security.

Almost all nuclear power plants are not run by computers in part because of security concerns (and because most are old) But yes, not all systems can be turned off to update at any moment. If our work pc would suddenly reboot on its own, that would cause serious problems as it controls a particle accelerator. But if you design your system in a way it can't be updated relatively quickly that's a serious flaw too. Professional systems can be targeted specifically too, see stuxnet.

[RandBlade]

Well, you still defined the job of an OS. That stability is more important than security. But that's not always the case. As soon as you use your computer to do online banking I would suggest you to put security first.

Firstly I defined my priority and said all along that others may have other priorities. That is being a mature person and not an automaton.

Secondly, I never dismissed security. I actually said that relying solely on the OS to do banking etc is stupid IMO, my security for my online banking is far more advanced than putting blind faith into Windows as being secure. Frankly given history and experience I have always put the least confidence in Microsoft for being secure by itself. You need to build on your own security on top.

You need other means of security.

Nailed it in one.

[Wraith]

Well, you still defined the job of an OS. That stability is more important than security. But that's not always the case. As soon as you use your computer to do online banking I would suggest you to put security first.

Stability is a superset of security.

[RandBlade]

Incidentally I just had to speak to technical support for some software that I use (because it was something I'd never done before). Out of curiousity at the end of the conversation because of this thread I asked for their advice regarding Windows 10, fully expecting the answer.

His advice was that while they don't know of any problems using their software with Windows 10 it hasn't been tested on it yet and he would recommend unless I need to upgrade now to hold off "for at least a month" so that if there are any problems somebody else is the one to discover it. File that under "no shit Sherlock".

[RandBlade]

But I love the touch of downgrading from "many" to "some"

Missed this reply but the two are synonyms not a downgrade. In fact if you want I will upgrade some to "most".

Ignoring Windows 10, Windows 8.1 as the most recent OS is two years old and so ought to be fully adopted if it was not true that many don't want to upgrade and so should be close to 100% market share of Windows machines.

According to this website Win 8.1 has a 13.12% market share. Considering Windows XP through to 8.1 have a combined 90.6% market share (even assuming there's no older Windows within the Others category) that means that 8.1 represent <14.5% of all Windows machines. Over 85.5% of Windows machines are not the latest OS and even nearly one in every five Win 8 machines aren't 8.1! Yes I consider the vast, vast majority "many".

Yes, you two remind me of my kids. One is cocksure yet almost completely oblivious to how the real world works, and the other loves to point out how ridiculous that looks and sounds to everyone else.

Guessing I'm the latter.

[Ominous Gamer]

Missed this reply but the two are synonyms not a downgrade. In fact if you want I will upgrade some to "most".

Ignoring Windows 10, Windows 8.1 as the most recent OS is two years old and so ought to be fully adopted if it was not true that many don't want to upgrade and so should be close to 100% market share of Windows machines.

According to this website Win 8.1 has a 13.12% market share. Considering Windows XP through to 8.1 have a combined 90.6% market share (even assuming there's no older Windows within the Others category) that means that 8.1 represent <14.5% of all Windows machines. Over 85.5% of Windows machines are not the latest OS and even nearly one in every five Win 8 machines aren't 8.1! Yes I consider the vast, vast majority "many".

There are a multitude of reasons to not update, not just security or reliability. No single OS has been "fully adopted" within 2 years, hell, they don't even reach majority of marketshare within that time. Not even XP (which had something like 35% after 2 years). Cost and hardware requirements (not so much drivers) used to be a major concern.

[RandBlade]

So two years isn't reasonable but what's being proposed is the automatic with no choice whatsoever upgrade of all home machines within a month? And within a few months for Enterprise machines. Somebody is off their rockers.

Neither cost nor hardware requirements are reasons not to update from 8 to 8.1 (and there's plenty of good reasons to as 8 was pants) yet a fifth of 8-generation machines are Win 8.

[Ominous Gamer]

So two years isn't reasonable but what's being proposed is the automatic with no choice whatsoever upgrade of all home machines within a month? And within a few months for Enterprise machines. Somebody is off their rockers.

Who said anything about a month? I have no idea how Microsoft is going to roll out the updates. Only 1 of my non 10 machines has gotten additional popups about it today. This statement barely even makes sense, no one is forcing home machines to update to 10. Its the smart thing to do since 7 and earlier have exited their mainstream support window and 8/8.1 are supposedly so horrible. Once the machines are moved over to 10 keeping them up to date is the smart thing to do, no different than allowing your antivirus to auto update (which carries the same risk), or do you delay that protection a month as well?

Neither cost nor hardware requirements are reasons not to update from 8 to 8.1 (and there's plenty of good reasons to as 8 was pants) yet a fifth of 8-generation machines are Win 8.

a quick reminder that the stats you are using are from internet users visiting that network's analytical tools. Steam for example, with 9 million active users, shows 8.1 64bit at 31% and 8 at 3%. But my work has more 8 than 8.1 machines because they are single use, supplied and maintained by a 3rd party behind our firewalls. Users being ignorant and stupid as a bricks plays a big part in the updating as well. The number of people coming in with tablets and laptops complaining about the 8.1 banner across their screen... I'm honestly surprised that 8.1 is so far ahead of 8.

[earthJoker]

Almost all nuclear power plants are not run by computers in part because of security concerns (and because most are old) But yes, not all systems can be turned off to update at any moment. If our work pc would suddenly reboot on its own, that would cause serious problems as it controls a particle accelerator. But if you design your system in a way it can't be updated relatively quickly that's a serious flaw too. Professional systems can be targeted specifically too, see stuxnet.

When I talk about computers, I don't mean PC. PLC is also a type of computer.

Firstly I defined my priority and said all along that others may have other priorities.

Didn't came over here that way. Looked like you wrote in absolute terms

Secondly, I never dismissed security. I actually said that relying solely on the OS to do banking etc is stupid IMO, my security for my online banking is far more advanced than putting blind faith into Windows as being secure. Frankly given history and experience I have always put the least confidence in Microsoft for being secure by itself. You need to build on your own security on top.
Nailed it in one.

Do you need a code per transaction or is it a per session security? If it's per session, you are still vulnerable to session hijacking.

Stability is a superset of security.

Please elaborate.

[Aimless]

Who said anything about a month? I have no idea how Microsoft is going to roll out the updates. Only 1 of my non 10 machines has gotten additional popups about it today. This statement barely even makes sense, no one is forcing home machines to update to 10.

He's saying that if we don't raise our eyebrows at people taking two years to upgrade their OS (eg. from 8 to 10) then maybe it's a little silly to flip our shit over people who don't want to be forced to update their OS within a month of an update's release.

[Ominous Gamer]

People have been dicking around with Windows 10 for 10 months now, its public now yes but Microsoft has flipped the table on a lot of aspects of this OS, from its extended beta to it being a free upgrade with an expected 10 year life. Besides I thought we were talking about Microsoft approved updates inside of Windows 10. I'm not aware of any program thats forcing non Windows 10 machines to update into Windows 10.

[Khendraja'aro]

Do you need a code per transaction or is it a per session security? If it's per session, you are still vulnerable to session hijacking.

Even if he needed a code per transaction, he'd still be vulnerable. If he's using a PIN generator: Simply intercept the website, alter the contents to show him what he' supposed to see and then use the generated key to do something completely different.

If it's PIN by SMS - SIM cloning is a thing now.

He's saying that if we don't raise our eyebrows at people taking two years to upgrade their OS (eg. from 8 to 10) then maybe it's a little silly to flip our shit over people who don't want to be forced to update their OS within a month of an update's release.

Who the hell is talking about being "forced to upgrade to a new OS"?

Yes quite often. And often he does. You can't turn of a nuclear power plan for a half an hour just because you have to do a security update. You need other means of security.

If that computer is reachable by the general internet (or even a semi-public corporate intranet) then you're doing it wrong. Period.

Plus, you'd use a completely different OS architecture which allows you to patch anything while the processes are running. Ever heard of "No Reboot Kernel Patching"?