How will EU policies on refugees change over the coming year?

[Hazir]

It's simply the price you pay for refusing to see realities under your eyes; you can't have federal structures if you refuse to transfer powers to the federal level.

[earthJoker]

That would also mean the federal level would be willing to solve the problems. Protecting the outer borders. Schengen died when the outer boarders were not protected anymore, protecting the inner borders is just a consequence.

[RandBlade]

Indeed the logical conclusion to Hazir's post is that it's time to say goodbye to the federal structures.

Maybe we can get from the ashes of this a successful and streamlined EU without federal pretences. Not holding my breath but still hope. Isn't it interesting that the two areas of major integration that we said no to (Schengen and the Euro) have turned out to be the two biggest failures of the EU in the last few years.

Though to the fanatical true believer the problem will be not enough integration no doubt.

[earthJoker]

What about free movement agreement? Wait, I already know your answer.

[RandBlade]

Do you?

I support free movement based on two criteria: Reciprocity (I can visit and live in your country, you can visit and live in mine) and culture/economics (more similar the better).

I support reciprocal free movement agreements then with the EU. I'd support reciprocal free movement agreements with eg America, Canada, New Zealand and Australia too - with them even more than Eastern Europe.

What I don't support is non-reciprocal free movement agreements with the entire world which is why I oppose Schengen. We do not for example have a reciprocal free movement agreement with Nigeria. Just because a Nigerian for instance arrives in Italy (legally or illegally) does not mean that they have a right to visit, live or work in the UK - any more than I have a right to live, work or visit Nigeria on the basis that a Nigerian has gone to Italy.

That is just one reason why border controls still matter even with a free movement agreement.

Ironically in my discussions with others online I've frequently said that the free movement treaties is the main reason I support our EU membership. A lot of others in this country dislike it the most and some have said they'll vote to leave currently but would vote to stay if Cameron negotiated the end to free movement [which was never on the table]. Oddly I'm the opposite, an EU without free movement I'd probably vote to leave. But its not being renegotiated so I'm voting to stay.

[earthJoker]

Do you?

Well I know you generally support it. But maybe with more restrictions that I have thought.

I support free movement based on two criteria: Reciprocity (I can visit and live in your country, you can visit and live in mine) and culture/economics (more similar the better).

I can support that as well, if we include social security standards. Or if we exclude social security for those who move in

I support reciprocal free movement agreements then with the EU. I'd support reciprocal free movement agreements with eg America, Canada, New Zealand and Australia too - with them even more than Eastern Europe.

Would be great, but again, I don't want to see people working in US and receiving social benefits in Europe.

What I don't support is non-reciprocal free movement agreements with the entire world which is why I oppose Schengen. We do not for example have a reciprocal free movement agreement with Nigeria. Just because a Nigerian for instance arrives in Italy (legally or illegally) does not mean that they have a right to visit, live or work in the UK - any more than I have a right to live, work or visit Nigeria on the basis that a Nigerian has gone to Italy.

Schengen doesn't give anyone the right to work or live anywhere. It gives the right to visit.

That is just one reason why border controls still matter even with a free movement agreement.

Just kick countries like Italy or Greece out of the club would also solve that problem.

[RandBlade]

Well I know you generally support it. But maybe with more restrictions that I have thought.

I think my views may have hardened from ultra-liberal to just very-liberal in the last 12 months on this topic

I can support that as well, if we include social security standards. Or if we exclude social security for those who move in

Would be great, but again, I don't want to see people working in US and receiving social benefits in Europe.

Exclude seems good. A right to work should not be a right to claim. I think the PM's idea of four years before you can claim benefits is a fair solution. By all means come over but come to support yourself and if you can't then go back home. This is the flaw with the EU, the attempt to eliminate the nation state entirely as a factor so it is "discrimination" to view your own citizens and citizens of other countries who've only just moved the same. They're not and if someone wants to contribute for a few years then I'm welcome to them but if someone wants to be a parasite then we have enough of those already.

Schengen doesn't give anyone the right to work or live anywhere. It gives the right to visit.

If you remove border controls it de facto gives all border security to the weakest link. By staying out of Schengen we maintain our own borders rather than delegating it to Italy or Greece.

Just kick countries like Italy or Greece out of the club would also solve that problem.

Then the next weakest link will be the issue.

[earthJoker]

There is always a weakest link, also within one single country. It only matters if the weakest links is strong enough.

[RandBlade]

Or - and I know this is a shocking concept to some in the 21st century - you take responsibility for yourselves.

[earthJoker]

How can I control the border in Geneva myself?

[RandBlade]

By yourself I mean your country. By voting for your government to do so if its what you care about, that's democracy.

[earthJoker]

Geneva boarder controls are executed by the canton of Geneva. Of course the Swiss government can control Geneva better than the EU can control its member states, but Switzerland still is a federation.

[Flixy]

Border control is local? That's typically something you'd expect to be federal.

[RandBlade]

However Switzerland wants to control its borders, directly or through the cantons then that's up to yourselves. Whatever you guys think works best.

Probably I assume Geneva does a better job at controlling its borders than dropping them and delegating responsibility to Greece and Italy etc

[earthJoker]

Just looked it up. My bad, there are cantonal and federal corps, and the federal is the boss: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Guard_Corps

The cantons have their forces as well. If I understand it correctly, the cantonal forces are more like special police forces, while the federal are under military law.

[LittleFuzzy]

Border control is done at the federal level here but that doesn't mean states just completely ignore it. I know California authorities maintain a presence at the major crossing points with Mexico and I'm sure the same is true for Texas. And they'll engage in internal border checks at state lines as well when the limited legitimate circumstances merit it. The California Department of Farm and Agriculture maintains 'em and people have to declare fruit and vegetables they're bringing into the state and submit to inspection to try and keep out various pests that don't yet have a presence.

[Hazir]

Border control is done at the federal level here but that doesn't mean states just completely ignore it. I know California authorities maintain a presence at the major crossing points with Mexico and I'm sure the same is true for Texas. And they'll engage in internal border checks at state lines as well when the limited legitimate circumstances merit it. The California Department of Farm and Agriculture maintains 'em and people have to declare fruit and vegetables they're bringing into the state and submit to inspection to try and keep out various pests that don't yet have a presence.

As things stand in the EU the EC can not control the borders of any state unless that member state requests help from Frontex. There are plans to enable the successor agency to step in even if the member state does not request assistance.

[earthJoker]

Plans. Great. That should have been part of Schengen from the Start.

[Hazir]

Plans. Great. That should have been part of Schengen from the Start.

The EU has never worked that way. But I am starting to wonder if they're going to get the beast back in the box or that the whole thing is going to explode soon.

[earthJoker]

Germoney is running out of friends.

[Hazir]

Germoney is running out of friends.

You're mistaken if you think it's just Germany. People in general are fed up with a system where only others paying for everything is seen as a general interest.

[RandBlade]

You're mistaken if you think it's just Germany. People in general are fed up with a system where only others paying for everything is seen as a general interest.

You sound more like a Kipper every day lol.

[earthJoker]

You're mistaken if you think it's just Germany. People in general are fed up with a system where only others paying for everything is seen as a general interest.

Elaborate please. Who do you mean excactly?

[Hazir]

Elaborate please. Who do you mean excactly?

I would say the general mood in those countries in Europe recieving pretty much all of the refugees over 2015 while other countries refuse to even consider helping them out to a very limited extent is very much in favor of no longer paying for those unwilling countries. Some politicians, the Austrian Chancellor, the Dutch miniter of finance have already said out loud that unwillingness in the refugee file should lead to consequences in the financing.

Besides that, the inability of countries like Greece of guarding their borders, combined with the unwillingness to accept help guarding their borders isn't exacly helping.

[earthJoker]

The Austrian Chancellor has now given in and doesn't accept refugees anymore.

Germany is getting isolated.

[Hazir]

The Austrian Chancellor has now given in and doesn't accept refugees anymore.

Germany is getting isolated.

And nobody except Cameron wants to keep Dublin; everybody else is agreeing with Angela Merkel.

[earthJoker]

everybody else is agreeing with Angela Merkel.

[Aimless]

everybody else is agreeing with Angela Merkel.

About Dublin?

[GGT]

Another aspect that hasn't been discussed much is a growing anti-US sentiment potential.....from our coalition allies.

The US might be good at cajoling/convincing other nations that military interventions can force political changes in the middle east, but if/when we don't take our fair share of the fallout (in refugees), the calculus will ultimately change.

[earthJoker]

Depends on your next president.