MA's system was the only attempt at the scale you're talking about and it was an utter fiscal failure. I (and the Republican party, which I am not a member of) have given tons of alternative suggestions that have been roundly ignored. It's kinda hilarious that you keep pretending there were no alternatives. That people didn't oppose this bill for a reason.Originally Posted by GGT
How many years ago did the Clintons try (and fail) to pass healthcare reform? For how many years aftewards did the Republicans control Congress and/or the Presidency?
Even if I don't agree with the Dems, its a bit much complaining about being ignored just a year after the Democrats won a sweeping victory at the election. The public chose the Democrats, the Republicans lost - comprehensively and across the board. This is the Dems opportunity to pass healthcare reform, if Republican alternatives were so great they had plenty of time in recent years that they could have passed them.
We have less than 40 days to go for this awful British government to be consigned to the dustbin of history and while I hate much of what Labour have done in recent years - to the core - I don't whine about being ignored. It puts fire in the belly to win the next election. And if we do, then let Labour feel the chance of being ignored. Because that's Democracy - it may not be the best system of government in the world, but it beats all the others.
Hilarious.
The federal opt-out is there; it comes when states make their own plans. State's rights folks should like that, limited federal gov'ment folks should like that, Republicans should like that. So....where are all the governors and state legislators and business leaders, besides paying expensive lawyers to draft law suits, or Repeal and Replace? They can 'replace' the federal mandate soon enough, but they'd better be working together in their states right now.
The alternative the Republicans came up with at the exact time the Clinton plan was destroyed, more or less by default, is what we have now. Managed Care via For Profit Insurance - all that competition's in this big fat market's gotta save some money, right? Well it failed utterly and completely and beyond anyone's wildest expectations. Just like Medicare Advantage - the proof of concept to show how privatizing Medicare will save all kinda Money. Well, it didn't - its roundly more expensive than the SOCIALIZED program it was being tested to replace. And for you to say the Republicans wanted anything BUT to kill any chance of Obama receiving a big legislative victory is either dishonest or plain dumb.Sorry for the name-calling but your arguments are ridiculous in the face of reality.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
You know as well as I do that the political agendas shift. Bush made a big political bet on one side of our massive entitlement dilemma (Social Security) and he was beaten down. But let's not pretend that these issues of federal entitlements were totally ignored under the Democrats came to power.
The states are being told to either take a fiscal bullet or the federal government will make them.Hilarious.
The federal opt-out is there; it comes when states make their own plans. State's rights folks should like that, limited federal gov'ment folks should like that, Republicans should like that. So....where are all the governors and state legislators and business leaders, besides paying expensive lawyers to draft law suits, or Repeal and Replace? They can 'replace' the federal mandate soon enough, but they'd better be working together in their states right now.What if a state just doesn't want to kill its budget with these types of benefits programs?
So because Bush didn't prioritise healthcare when he was President and his party controlled Congress, the Obama can't prioritise it (nearly 2 full decades after the Clintons first tried) when his party controls Congress?
The Democrats came to power pledging healthcare reform. Right or wrong, they're now implementing it. That's democracy in action - the Republicans will win in a few years time and if they controlled 60 senators they would implement the "third rail" policies that the Democrats wouldn't want.
The problem is that these kind of programs are virtually impossible to remove. And this means that our deficit will continue to spiral out of control, which will be even worse when we'll have to pay a higher interest rate to service that debt, as Wraith's article showed. It's like when governments increase the size of the public sector. Are people in the public sector going to vote for anyone who promises to axe their job?
Hope is the denial of reality
I didn't say they couldn't prioritize this.
Yes, the Republicans would do the same. But as much as I hate to sound like a conspiratorial wingnut, the media let the Democrats off much easier on the -- achem -- procedural and structural issues behind this bill.
That's parliamentary democracy. It's not how our system is supposed to work.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
That would be fair enough, except for how you haven't limited your commentary to the Congress-critters and party apparatchiks.And for you to say the Republicans wanted anything BUT to kill any chance of Obama receiving a big legislative victory is either dishonest or plain dumb.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
I was close to saying that when I read Rand's comment. But on the other hand; the American system gives the minority so much access to the brakes on the legislative process that you can't be really surprised that the majority will use whatever trick on the book is needed to get legislation through.
I think the Republicans are making a huge mistake by acting like the Great Obstructionist Party, it may please their fringes that they aren't willing to compromise, but it also puts the axe to the system you guys used to have. I can't imagine swing voters not only not liking what they do, but also coming to the conclusion that the system as it is really doesn't work with a party like that in opposition.
Congratulations America
Really? A party with the Presidency and 60 senators isn't supposed to get a bill through?
Yes obviously the founding fathers didn't believe in parties etc, etc, etc but seriously? The public elected the Democrats, not the Republicans.
Yeah, What If? Like it or not, it took a bill like this to suddenly call everyone to action. We've been kicking the can forward for decades. State budgets are a mess, we're all going to be forced to swallow bitter pills---what to cut, what to keep.The states are being told to either take a fiscal bullet or the federal government will make them.
States like mine (PA) with high numbers of elderly, crumbling infrastructure and failing schools, high corporate and property tax rates, have it smack in the face. IMO we should have means-testing for SS and Medicare, but neither party will touch that. Senior voting blocs are strangling us from the neck down.
That consensus building, bipartisan efforts, and social contract with the people is what Obama was criticized for. Make up your mind. It could have been 'rammed through' much earlier, if it weren't for all that time spent negotiating with Republicans who, in the end, didn't really want to negotiate. And now the Republicans are saying they will purposely obstruct. Where's your umbrage toward bare-knuckled minority dirty tricks, using the process to impede?I didn't say they couldn't prioritize this.
Lately you do sound like a conspiratorial wingnut. Glad you can admit that now.Yes, the Republicans would do the same. But as much as I hate to sound like a conspiratorial wingnut, the media let the Democrats off much easier on the -- achem -- procedural and structural issues behind this bill.
You mean the media that is pwned by Fox news? Yeah, the media is giving the Dems a free ride al right. They are not betrayed as tyranny of the left at all. They are not called the cancer that destroys the foundation of America at all.
Can you show me left wing media rallying it's viewers to attend anti-bush protests as blatantly openly as Fox has done?
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
Appearantly in the American system 50+1 in the Senate effective does not constitute a majority big enough to pass legislation. The Democrats didn't have 60 Senators at the time of the vote, that's why the reconcilliation route was taken.
Actually, I see a slight hold-over there from the not-so-federal past of the US, sort of what we have in the EU when a country calls in the clause for core national interests to effectively veto a proposal even where they have formally lost the veto.
Congratulations America
Are you talking about Republican voters vs. the party and the congressmen? I wasn't talking about voters, I was talking about the party strategy. How to beat the Democrats = don't let them pass anything.
They have a lot of people convinced they were willing to compromise (Dread = Exhibit #1) but the left just ignored them and passed their own extremist agenda....
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
And yet I fail to see the juggernaut public option that the leftist dictators wanted to force upon the nation against its will. (Does nation have a gender? )They have a lot of people convinced they were willing to compromise (Dread = Exhibit #1) but the left just ignored them and passed their own extremist agenda....
Congratulations America
I think nations are like boats----feminine gender. Mother Land. Lady Liberty. Justice holds her scales blindfolded. The bosom of plenty.
Come to think of it, do dying soldiers ever cry out for their fathers, or it always their mothers?
Exactly. And no, nation in English - and in US culture - has no gender. Ships do though.
Lady liberty is the statue of liberty. And afaik nobody refers to the use as the Mother Land. That's a Euro thing, I believe. Hazir?
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Well, generally mother is the person a kid in a "normal" household would turn to for comfort, right? Mommy fixed your booboos, mommy made you chicken soup when you were sick. I think a dying soldier has a pretty big booboo, but mommy can fix anything.
We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.
I think it's only Mother Russia, the rest of us have Fatherlands. (In dutch, german, french, spanish the nation does have a gender by the way: feminine)Exactly. And no, nation in English - and in US culture - has no gender. Ships do though.
Lady liberty is the statue of liberty. And afaik nobody refers to the use as the Mother Land. That's a Euro thing, I believe. Hazir?
Congratulations America
In English, nations are referred to either as genderless or feminine, e.g. "Britain and her colonies", though that usage is perhaps somewhat archaic.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Fatherlands?
I thought it was due to the rarity of actual wombs, when spermies are millions per.
Nautical semantics makes sense. A bunch of men on one mother ship. Greek mythology is big on the sea as male (God as male?), but the boats (vessels) are female.
Britain is not a nation, it's a country.
Congratulations America
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
That still doesn't say much about nations. Germany is also a country, not a nation. Strangely enough it's the United States and its allies. Very confusing this.
Congratulations America
It is confusing. But land is fertile ground that needs seed to propagate. Maybe it's not nautical at all, but agrarian? Are crops male or female?
OK, so what is Water feeding soil? Sailors refer to boats and oceans as females, but what about Mother Earth and dirt?
edit
oh yeah, and what about The Milk of Human Kindness? That isn't referring to sperm or ejaculate. Sorry guys, Mother Nature seems to have an edge.
Germany's not a nation? Really? Really?
"United States and her allies" might well have been used in the early 20th century.Strangely enough it's the United States and its allies. Very confusing this.
EDIT: oh hei: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/con...ent=a792198933
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
They are now offering to send you a certificate stating as much. Free, but after you put the order through it asks for a donation and to upgrade the framing.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/conte...ertificate?key
a WTF moment for my sister's mailbox in 6-8 weeks
The word "country" has no technical definition. It's used in many different ways and there's no basis for saying one of the definitions is better than the other (it's why the word is rarely used in academic journals). I think what Hazir meant was that Britain was a state, not a nation. While many Englishmen (and some others) do consider themselves to be British first, the feeling is rarely shared in Scotland and Wales. Germany has attempted to create a nation, but it's not clear how successful that attempt has been.
Hope is the denial of reality
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