Turkey

[Hazir]

The only thing left to debate is how much Erdogan will use this opportunity to repress and force through this presidential constitution.

That, so much so that big numbers of people claim it was all staged. Which I do not by the way.

[LittleFuzzy]

But part of the pact is defending its members from/against aggressive actors that might want to take down the entire government.

No. No it's not. There is absolutely nothing in the terms of the North Atlantic Treaty regarding domestic action. It's external attacks only. Not just external, in fact, but interstate action. Non-state actors don't qualify even if they are external (like Al Queda in the wake of 9/11. Not a NATO-issue, and NATO obligations were not invoked in the wake of the 2001 terrorist attacks).

[earthJoker]

I don't see how Erdogan's rule is going to survive this. I think this is it.

Yeah, totally. Why not just stop making such predictions.

[Flixy]

No. No it's not. There is absolutely nothing in the terms of the North Atlantic Treaty regarding domestic action. It's external attacks only. Not just external, in fact, but interstate action. Non-state actors don't qualify even if they are external (like Al Queda in the wake of 9/11. Not a NATO-issue, and NATO obligations were not invoked in the wake of the 2001 terrorist attacks).

I'm pretty sure article 5 was invoked in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 (but IIRC not for the invasion of Afghanistan).

[RandBlade]

No. No it's not. There is absolutely nothing in the terms of the North Atlantic Treaty regarding domestic action. It's external attacks only. Not just external, in fact, but interstate action. Non-state actors don't qualify even if they are external (like Al Queda in the wake of 9/11. Not a NATO-issue, and NATO obligations were not invoked in the wake of the 2001 terrorist attacks).

NATO invoked Article 5 on September 12, 2001 the day after 9/11. I believe that was the first time Article 5 had been invoked.

[RandBlade]

Yeah, totally. Why not just stop making such predictions.

Seemed a reasonable prediction at the time. Surprising that it all fell apart so quickly.

[Khendraja'aro]

Well, I'm usually very far from being a conspiracy theorist, but considering what happened last year, this has at least some hallmarks of a false flag operation.

[earthJoker]

Seemed a reasonable prediction at the time.

We didn't know shit. We hardly know anything now. So no, it was just wishful thinking.

[Loki]

NATO invoked Article 5 on September 12, 2001 the day after 9/11. I believe that was the first time Article 5 had been invoked.

Al-Qaeda was viewed as an external threat. Ditto for the communists who tried to overthrow various NATO governments early in the Cold War.

[Hazir]

We didn't know shit. We hardly know anything now. So no, it was just wishful thinking.

Actually, the fact that the operation had already started in the early afternoon under the noses of everybody made it look like a very unstoppable coup. As for wishful thinking, you tell me what's wrong with not being particular sad about a dictator being kicked out. Also, my experiences with the 1980 coup and its aftermath made me very apprehensious about the coup itself. In conversations with friends the common denominator was; no good can come from this from the moment it started. Because regardless of the outcome Turkey wasn't going to be a better country.

Otherwise this coup is one of those things where you can say 'If he wasn't behind it, he should have been behind it'. He himself already described it at a gift of God enabling him to clean up the army. And his cronies didn't exactly stop at the army. In the hours since the coup close to 3000 judges were dismissed.

[earthJoker]

Actually, the fact that the operation had already started in the early afternoon under the noses of everybody made it look like a very unstoppable coup.

Just antother wrong assumtion.

As for wishful thinking, you tell me what's wrong with not being particular sad about a dictator being kicked out. Also, my experiences with the 1980 coup and its aftermath made me very apprehensious about the coup itself. In conversations with friends the common denominator was; no good can come from this from the moment it started. Because regardless of the outcome Turkey wasn't going to be a better country.

I have no problem with wishes. Just with turning hopes and fears into predictions.

Otherwise this coup is one of those things where you can say 'If he wasn't behind it, he should have been behind it'. He himself already described it at a gift of God enabling him to clean up the army. And his cronies didn't exactly stop at the army. In the hours since the coup close to 3000 judges were dismissed.

I am not believing in the false flag yet. But I don't find it unreasonable to believe that Erdogan knew about the coup in beforehand and was actually more prepared for the events than he want us to believe.

[Hazir]

Whatever. Good luck with living a live in which you never say something you thought would happen doesn't happen.

[Aimless]

This is obviously the first of many successful operations conducted in collaboration with Putin

[Aimless]

Seriously though, if Erdogan attempts to further strengthen his grip on power and get even more authoriy than he does now, will it succeed or will it very soon backfire?

[earthJoker]

Whatever. Good luck with living a live in which you never say something you thought would happen doesn't happen.

I at least try to be above 50% because otherwise I can just throw a coin.

[Loki]

Seriously though, if Erdogan attempts to further strengthen his grip on power and get even more authoriy than he does now, will it succeed or will it very soon backfire?

It hasn't backfired yet (failed coup excepted ).

Edit: "Some 2,745 Turkish judges have also been dismissed in the wake of the coup, state media say."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36813924

[Lewkowski]

It hasn't backfired yet (failed coup excepted ).

Edit: "Some 2,745 Turkish judges have also been dismissed in the wake of the coup, state media say."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36813924

Well you know those judges were armed and helped the military... wait what?

[Loki]

This is why attempting coups against assholes is bad. It gives them an excuse to be even more assholish.

[Aimless]

So, will Gülen be extradited?

[Loki]

No.

[coinich]

So, will Gülen be extradited?

Why would he be?

[LittleFuzzy]

So, will Gülen be extradited?

Unfortunately, Erdogan has no proof to offer US courts or officials for his charge that Gulen is responsible for global warming as a plot to ruin Turkish farmers.

[earthJoker]

Unfortunately

[Aimless]

Unfortunately, Erdogan has no proof to offer US courts or officials for his charge that Gulen is responsible for global warming as a plot to ruin Turkish farmers.

Why would he be?

No.

In that case, will Turkey step up the rhetoric any further?

Some sources have reported that the Turkish PM at least has said that any country that helps Gulen will be considered "not a friend" and may even be considered as being at war. I think a lot may be lost in translation there so if anyone can translate the actual quote more accurately that would be helpful.




Btw, has NATO ever used military intervention in fulfilling its collective security mission to safeguard against internal threats? I can think of no examples off the top of my head.

[RandBlade]

We've already said that NATO has no collective mission to safeguard against internal threats ...

[LittleFuzzy]

In that case, will Turkey step up the rhetoric any further?

Some sources have reported that the Turkish PM at least has said that any country that helps Gulen will be considered "not a friend" and may even be considered as being at war. I think a lot may be lost in translation there so if anyone can translate the actual quote more accurately that would be helpful.




Btw, has NATO ever used military intervention in fulfilling its collective security mission to safeguard against internal threats? I can think of no examples off the top of my head.

The blaming of Gulen for everything that goes wrong in Turkey or which Erdogan doesn't like is because "traitors" forced abroad make good scapegoats, not because they are actually a huge concern. Of course, we've asked on here just how rational Erdogan is so that might not be the accurate perspective to use, he might actually be the sort who has security check under the bed at night to make sure Gulen isn't lurking there.

[Steely Glint]

Some sources have reported that the Turkish PM at least has said that any country that helps Gulen will be considered "not a friend" and may even be considered as being at war.

Good luck with that, Binali.

[Hazir]

This coup is causing a situation where people are very afraid the country could erupt into something resembling a civil war. There's a fear the government will use it as a pretext against all opposition and the government supporters in the streets already has taken it upon themselves to 'teach a lesson' to everyone they perceive as not with them. Religious minorities amongst the first.

[Steely Glint]

Headline on BBC is that 8000 police have been suspended for being connected to the coup. So I'd say that fear was well justified. Fucker's using it as an opportunity to do a full scale purge.

[Hazir]

This coup is causing a situation where people are very afraid the country could erupt into something resembling a civil war. There's a fear the government will use it as a pretext against all opposition and the government supporters in the streets already has taken it upon themselves to 'teach a lesson' to everyone they perceive as not with them. Religious minorities amongst the first.