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Thread: Lobbying for Legislative Leverage

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    How nice to know that Dread can tell us how stupid we are, and we don't know how things work. Too bad we can't also rely on Dread to make things work.
    Please explain how what I'm saying is somehow surprising or arrogant. The California state population has increased 3.8x over the past 60 years. The California state employee count has increased 5.8x. Any way you look at it, costs and future liabilities have increased dramatically faster than population growth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Retirees are taxpayers just as are union members. Have you given much thought to where state revenues come from?
    Yes, but retirees paying taxes on their pension distributions doesn't help the state balance its books. Without a 100% tax rate, the distributions will always exceed the revenues.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Yes, but retirees paying taxes on their pension distributions doesn't help the state balance its books. Without a 100% tax rate, the distributions will always exceed the revenues.
    You really think that state employees are a significant number of taxpayers?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Fine then, name me some current day politicians that got elected without a lot of money interest behind them, let alone RE-elected.
    Ron Paul. And better than not having big-money interests behind him, he's been consistently opposed by the big money interests of his own party. The Republics have thrown millions of dollars to his opponents in every election cycle to try to get him voted out... unsuccessfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    You really think that state employees are a significant number of taxpayers?
    You don't?

    Here, have some homework. And do note that the usual accounting trickery does apply - "consultants" and "contractors" working for the government are not counted as "employees," nor are the >1 million military service members considered part of the government.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Ron Paul. And better than not having big-money interests behind him, he's been consistently opposed by the big money interests of his own party. The Republics have thrown millions of dollars to his opponents in every election cycle to try to get him voted out... unsuccessfully.
    He raked in millions on-line. Not from traditional 'big money', but his campaign needed boat loads of bucks to be considered a serious candidate by others. Then the labels of wingnut and paulnut took hold. He was excluded from a couple of important debates.

  5. #35
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    Oh, that's right. Ron Paul's congressional seat is exempted from the pesky election cycle you were talking about.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    You really think that state employees are a significant number of taxpayers?
    They are growing faster than the population. And it's still lose-lose for whatever muddled point you're trying to make, as state employees aren't some kind of self-contained perpetual motion machine that funds itself.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    They are growing faster than the population. And it's still lose-lose for whatever muddled point you're trying to make, as state employees aren't some kind of self-contained perpetual motion machine that funds itself.
    The point is that cutting taxes and shifting the tax burden down the income scale is a much larger contributor to our revenue problem than the number of government employees. How much effect do you think cutting our government workforce in half will have on our deficit?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    The point is that cutting taxes and shifting the tax burden down the income scale is a much larger contributor to our revenue problem than the number of government employees.
    Um, citation needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post


    (Note: graphic is pre-Obamacare, and does not account for its additional costs.)

    And after that, they can just raise average tax rates to.... 80% or so to pay for everything. A simple solution, bound to be devoid of any complications, whatsoever.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  9. #39
    Charts that conflate two completely separate revenue streams are often used hide facts. Part of the interest in that chart is income tax liability for money borrowed from the payroll tax.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  10. #40
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    Even if I take what you say at face value - so what?

    That chart seems to pretty clearly demonstrate that taxation changes are a drop in the bucket compared to the much larger problem of the enormous level of debt and government liabilities we have.

    Thus, I am still waiting for a citation to back up your claim that taxation cuts are a bigger problem than government spending, vis a vis the deficit.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  11. #41
    Also keep in mind that a lot of workers are employed on the state level, and states have access to far fewer revenue streams than the national governments, which means that a large number of state employees affects state budgets more than federal employees affect the federal budget.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Even if I take what you say at face value - so what?

    That chart seems to pretty clearly demonstrate that taxation changes are a drop in the bucket compared to the much larger problem of the enormous level of debt and government liabilities we have.

    Thus, I am still waiting for a citation to back up your claim that taxation cuts are a bigger problem than government spending, vis a vis the deficit.
    Other government programs and Net interest are NOT paid for from the payroll tax. So what's the significance of including them in that chart?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Other government programs and Net interest are NOT paid for from the payroll tax. So what's the significance of including them in that chart?
    Probably something crazy... like to show the composition of our national debt by category, and then compare that to government revenue and national GDP?
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Probably something crazy... like to show the composition of our national debt by category, and then compare that to government revenue and national GDP?
    Separate the two independent revenue streams if you want a true picture. Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare have nothing to do with income taxes. Income tax revenue is the stream that has produced deficits.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  15. #45
    Back on topic:

    Lawmakers Regulate Banks, Then Flock to Them

    By ERIC LICHTBLAU
    Published: April 13, 2010

    WASHINGTON — Representative Barney Frank publicly rebuked a former aide this month for taking a job with a big Wall Street firm right after drafting a regulation that could affect the way the firm does business. Mr. Frank described it as an unusual transgression, one that embarrassed others working on the legislation and created at least the appearance of a conflict of interest.

    But while the speed of the aide’s switch from government to Wall Street was extraordinary, it reflected reality as Congress takes on an overhaul of the system of regulating financial giants: Wall Street, perhaps more than any other industry, is bolstering its lobbying forces, and turning more and more to former lawmakers and Congressional staff members to lead the fight against stiff rules.

    The revolving door is an oft-noticed phenomenon here, but in recent years, the migration from Congress to the financial services firms that are trying to stave off greater federal regulation has become more pronounced.

    From anonymous midlevel workers to former House and Senate majority leaders, more than 125 former Congressional aides and lawmakers are now working for financial firms as part of a multibillion-dollar effort to shape, and often scale back, federal regulatory power, data shows. Indeed, some of the biggest players in Washington politics are lobbying now on the regulatory bills that are making their way through Congress.

    One former representative, Michael G. Oxley, the Ohio Republican whose name is on one of the most famous pieces of business regulatory legislation, is a senior adviser to the Nasdaq stock market.

    The legislation, the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002, imposed tougher accounting measures on firms after scandals at Enron and other companies. Mr. Oxley received $40,000 in the last quarter of 2009 for lobbying to limit the ownership of banks and other competitors in clearinghouses.

    Another former Republican representative, Richard H. Baker of Louisiana, served 12 years as chairman of the House banking panel that oversaw capital markets before he left Congress in 2008. He is now president and a registered lobbyist for the Managed Funds Association, which represents the largest trading firms in the trillion-dollar hedge fund industry. The association reported spending $3.7 million last year alone to lobby federal officials on regulations for hedge funds.

    An analysis by Public Citizen found that at least 70 former members of Congress were lobbying for Wall Street and the financial services sector last year, including two former Senate majority leaders (Trent Lott and Bob Dole), two former House majority leaders (Richard A. Gephardt and Dick Armey) and a former House speaker (J. Dennis Hastert).

    In addition to the lawmakers, data from the Center for Responsive Politics counted 56 former Congressional aides on the Senate or House banking committees who went on to use their expertise to lobby for the financial sector.

    Visa had the most former Congressional officials, with 37 lobbyists; it was followed closely by other financial powerhouses like Goldman Sachs, Prudential, Citigroup and the American Bankers Association, according to the analysis from Public Citizen, an advocacy group that has pushed for tougher lobbying restrictions.

    The case of Peter S. Roberson, whose hiring by a derivatives clearinghouse drew the ire of Mr. Frank, is the most extreme, and it points to holes in the rules governing lobbying by former aides.

    As a senior aide to Mr. Frank on the House financial services committee, Mr. Roberson helped draft legislation last year on regulating the over-the-counter derivatives market, which played a big part in the 2008 market collapse. After leaving his Congressional post in January, he began working as a lobbyist for IntercontinentalExchange, the world’s leading clearinghouse for derivatives.

    Mr. Roberson, who was paid $124,416 last year as a senior aide, is banned from contacting or lobbying his former colleagues on the committee. But that will not stop him from lobbying, if he chooses to do so. Indeed, he is opening the Washington lobbying office of the exchange.

    He is allowed to contact other committees that will be considering the derivatives part of the legislation, like the agriculture committee, as well as anyone in the Senate, where the debate has now shifted. The House has already approved the legislation written by Mr. Frank.

    IntercontinentalExchange, known as ICE, said that Mr. Roberson would not be available for an interview and declined to say who had initiated the job discussions. In a statement, Johnathan Short, general counsel for the company, said, “ICE is aware of and has respectfully followed all requirements under House ethics rules governing contact between members, current and former staff. We hired Peter with a full and complete understanding of existing ethics rules and the chairman’s purview in administering the same.”

    In an interview last week, Mr. Frank said that he was incensed when Mr. Roberson informed him several months ago that he was in job discussions with the exchange. “In this case, what made it particularly egregious was that he had been working specifically on legislation that was relevant to the company — he had been working on derivatives,” Mr. Frank said.

    Some critics of the legislation maintain that the section of the bill regulating derivatives is now tainted because of the involvement of Mr. Roberson, who had worked as a lobbyist for the Bond Market Association before going to work for the financial services committee in 2007.

    Mr. Frank said he was confident that Mr. Roberson had not influenced or softened the final drafting of the rules with an eye toward a future employer — “nobody slips that stuff by us,” he said — but he acknowledged that the situation had driven public skepticism.

    “It’s the appearance as much as anything else,” he said. “He may be able to give them some insight into how things were worded, etc.,” he added.

    Mr. Frank barred Mr. Roberson from having any contact with his committee for as long as he is chairman — a step that goes beyond the one-year restriction in House rules — and he said that he would also order his staff not to have any job discussions in the future with companies for which they are drafting regulations.

    “You should not be allowed to do that, because it could have an influence on you,” he said.

    It was the second time in less than two years that Mr. Frank had imposed a restriction that went beyond House rules in dealing with a staff member turned lobbyist. He said he had imposed a two-year restriction on any committee contact with Michael Paese, the former deputy staff director at the committee who left in August 2008 to be a lobbyist and top executive with the Securities Industry and Financial Markets Association.

    Lobbyists and several executives at financial firms that employ them, none of whom would agree to be named, said that former members of Congress and staff members were in high demand because they brought invaluable expertise and access on federal matters.

    “Hiring a well-connected staffer can run a firm something like $300,000 to $600,000 a year, and for a member of Congress, it’s anywhere from $1 million to $3 million,” said Craig Holman of Public Citizen. “The only businesses that can really afford that are those that are very wealthy, but clearly these companies are getting their money’s worth.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/bu...l?pagewanted=1


  16. #46

  17. #47
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    If you don't want corporations involved in government (as you say), then stop government from interfering in business. As it stands now, big business needs to employ lobbyists to keep the government from ruining their business with shitty legislation. It's unfair to blame them for looking after their bottom line, just because the people ripping them off work at the Capitol Building.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  18. #48
    Cool! Dual threads! I didn't read the whole thing, but does requiring them to negotiate with unions mean they have to hire them, or just consider their project bids along with private bidders?

    Cain, to not "interfere" in business would mean what, no laws or regulations of any kind? That would be chaos, even dangerous.

    Our paper mill would still be polluting our water, dumping chemicals in feeder streams, and spewing foul toxins from their stacks. That would mean our crops are contaminated, too. Just one example.

  19. #49
    It requires them to use unions if said agency mandates it. This requirement is passed along to all subcontractors on a project. The negotiation is sort of (though not entirely) meaningless once the government agency has decided that it must work with unions.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Cain, to not "interfere" in business would mean what, no laws or regulations of any kind? That would be chaos, even dangerous.
    Yeah, so how's the current dynamic working out?

    Good thing government regulation stopped companies from creating pollution or lead-based paint, or installing a highly mutagenic carcinogen everywhere (asbestos).

    Oh, wait... not so much.

    In any event... you can't very well complain about corporations getting involved in government to protect their interests when government gets so involved in corporate affairs. Can't have your cake and eat it too, sorry.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  21. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Yeah, so how's the current dynamic working out?

    Good thing government regulation stopped companies from creating pollution or lead-based paint, or installing a highly mutagenic carcinogen everywhere (asbestos).

    Oh, wait... not so much.

    In any event... you can't very well complain about corporations getting involved in government to protect their interests when government gets so involved in corporate affairs. Can't have your cake and eat it too, sorry.
    Bah, I can complain about ALL of it. Just like you can complain about anti-e-cigarette ALA lobbyists pushing their agenda.

    It's a revolving door and pay-to-play. Legislators scratch the back of big donors and lobbyists that got them elected. Which brings out opposition PACs and more lobbyist money to buy votes. When they leave elected office, they work as lobbyists or 'policy advisors' for professional groups or trade unions.

    It's really not having my cake and eating it too, to favor campaign finance reform and updated ethics rules. More press coverage and public opinion to expose it all might have an effect, in this Information Age and social networking. I hope they get Tweeted and polled into PR nightmares of their own making.

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    It's really not having my cake and eating it too, to favor campaign finance reform and updated ethics rules.


    You don't actually think those work, do you? If they did, we probably wouldn't need a new set of "campaign finance reform" bills every time there's a major shift in power in this country.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post


    You don't actually think those work, do you? If they did, we probably wouldn't need a new set of "campaign finance reform" bills every time there's a major shift in power in this country.
    "Those things" like which--rules or public sentiment? IMO both have the potential to move things forward to a better place. That's about as optimistic I can be.

    When you filed your tax returns did you check the box giving one dollar to be used in future elections?

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    "Those things" like which--rules or public sentiment?
    I meant campaign finance rules, but I'm in a generous mood today, so you can have one of each, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    IMO both have the potential to move things forward to a better place. That's about as optimistic I can be.
    Yeah, that is pretty naive of you. What was the public sentiment on the health care bill before it got shoved through? ~68% opposed, or so, wasn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    When you filed your tax returns did you check the box giving one dollar to be used in future elections?
    Excellent, please keep spreading the rumor that I pay taxes. I appreciate that a lot, actually.

    But in answer to your question, no... no I don't voluntarily increase my tax burden, even by one dollar. Why the fuck would any sane person want to do that?
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  25. #55
    It's not a tax, it's a 'donation'. But I don't check the box, either.

    Loathe government all you want, but we're a nation of laws and rules. The trick is finding the right balance.

    I could say you're being naive to dismiss "rules" with a broad brush. All areas of our lives depend on some agreed rules of the game and "ethics"....from knowing the Rx you get from a doctor isn't because he gets a kickback from the pharmaceutical company....to placing bets on computer gambling sites knowing they haven't tampered with the software.

    We need a basic confidence and trust in certain things, or we'd all just stop driving cars, buying, consuming, trading...voting? I don't think the answer is to totally check out and build a bunker or buy an island. Good luck with that.

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