From overhere it's kind of amusing; an election called because of the need to have a strong and stable hand in the Brexit negotiations turning it all into a matter of 'which cliff is it we'll go over?'
From overhere it's kind of amusing; an election called because of the need to have a strong and stable hand in the Brexit negotiations turning it all into a matter of 'which cliff is it we'll go over?'
Congratulations America
Corbyn's argument on that matter is also a really good one: What good is more information if you don't have the boots on the ground to even act on the information you already have?Originally Posted by Steely Glint
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
There's a lot of evidence it would have made a difference in these cases. I believe that the Manchester attacker and at least one of the London attackers had left the UK to fight for ISIS and have since returned to the UK. The Tories tried to pass a bill through Parliament stripping those who left the UK to fight for ISIS of their citizenship but one reason that failed was that one human rights law denies us the right to strip people of citizenship if it would leave them stateless.
As far as I'm concerned anyone who wants to fight for ISIS is no Brit and should be allowed to leave never to return. If that leaves them stateless, then I don't care - that was their choice not mine.
I see you're now buying the "fuck human rights" Tory line. Liberal indeed.
Hope is the denial of reality
No I don't want to "f*ck human rights", I do think we are best placed to judge human rights and that includes that those who have gone overseas to fight for an enemy are no longer our citizens and are not welcome to return in order to cause murder and mayhem on the streets. I don't see what is "illiberal" about that.
Really? You think it's a good idea for each country to unilaterally decide what human rights are?
Hope is the denial of reality
Still. In the particular matter it is very strange that a state is held to not withdraw its protection from a person who by his own volition joins a declared enemy.
Congratulations America
Yes I do, haven't I repeatedly said that for years? Why are you surprised? Why should I not?
You think its better to delegate human rights to nations like Saudi Arabia having a say on how women should be treated?
International relations should best determine how nations interact with each other, not how we run ourselves.
Given that this is the case already......
Congratulations America
Precisely.
Don't worry, if Parliament arrives at the wrong list of human rights, a small plurality of right-thinking Englishmen can always demand a snap election and rectify the mistake toot sweet.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
There are laws and courts for that. I don't see why anyone joining a foreign enemy isn't automatically jailed upon their return. That would involve no violation of human rights and would be more effective than simply depriving people of their citizenship.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...gainst_TortureGiven that this is the case already......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...n_Human_Rights
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...Court_Act_2001
According to you, Saudi Arabia isn't engaging in human rights violations. Because Saudi Arabia gets to decide for itself what human rights are.
Hope is the denial of reality
Which still does not explain why courts should be forced to not rule the expulsion of an actual enemy. Half of the rules put down in those treaties are reactions to the nazi regime that had just been defeated. If they turn out to bind us in a suicide pact today there should be nothing to hold us from a good critical look at their validity.
Having such a good look is not much different than the call for gun control.
Congratulations America
I'll be voting Conservative tonight; but I'll do so reluctantly.
When this election started I was convinced there was only one choice - the Tories. I felt (and still feel) that Brexit is all consuming and by far the most important thing on the government's agenda for the next several years. The last thing I want to do is jeopardise that and bring in a bunch of new people (to whom I have zero confidence in) to plan and manage the negotiations, and then deliver results. Competency in actually doing those thing is paramount to me.
However, I think the Tories have had a terrible campaign. Awful. I think they've been complacent and relied too heavily on the expected failures of other parties; but I think that tactic has backfired on them and the confidence I had in TM a few weeks ago has really been hit. She's not inspired me and she's not made me feel like I want to vote for her leadership. I want strong and stable leadership; but I also want to be inspired and excited by my leaders. Take Cameron - whilst I thought he was slippery and indecisive at times, he did inspire me.
It think the Tories have the most responsible manifesto. It's all very sensible and I think making Brexit the main focus is the right thing to do, but it's all been so mundane and unexciting from them that it's made reconsider who I should vote for. It's only because of the huge deficiencies in the other parties that they get my vote; and that's really depressing
According to you, Saudi Arabia isn't engaging in human rights violations. Because Saudi Arabia has signed up for international agreements.
I feel more nervous today than I have in prior elections. While I have never been as confident of a Tory victory before, the alternative has never been as appalling. There is a very real chance that this time tomorrow we could have Prime Minister Corbyn and the prospect of that terrifies me.
I also have zero confidence in the opinion polls, they're a bad joke.
When I went to vote today the person giving out the ballots said that turnout was a lot higher than normal, there'd been twice as many votes as normal by that stage with a lot of extra young voters. That could be very good news for Corbynistas.
Doesn't really work in that direction.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Doesn't really work in either direction. That was the point.
The point is flawed. The two arguments are not equally valid. If one holds the view that basic human rights can be defined unilaterally and at will by any country then one may be forced to concede that a country such as Saudi Arabia can redefine basic human rights in such a way that it can be argued that they, by their standards, are not guilty of violating such rights, even as they kill, torture, oppress and otherwise mistreat people. It's certainly possible to challenge that interpretation, but it's not inherently illogical or absurd.
In contrast, if one believes that basic human rights are defined not at the state level but at the supranational or international level, then one can simply assert that Saudi Arabia is violating the very rights it has pledged to safeguard, according to laws and standards it has pledged to recognize.
Last edited by Aimless; 06-08-2017 at 08:55 PM.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Yes, Rand, let's remove Human Rights. That's always worked out well in the past when you strip people of some basic rights.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Logic isn't your strong point, is it? Does the existence of a speed limit mean that no one violates it? So once again, is Saudi Arabia engaging in any human rights violations?
Hope is the denial of reality
Exit polls show hung parliament. Even best case scenario has May losing seats. Hopefully, this is the end of her.
Hope is the denial of reality
The exit poll has the three left wing parties and the Tories exactly balanced. That is the hungest hung parliament ever to hang.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Given the lack of constituency-level polling, I wouldn't completely trust the results. Especially with the SNP projected to lose 20 seats.
Hope is the denial of reality
Oh my God, that would be so funny
Congratulations America
I bought a bottle of wine in anticipation of that very outcome.
Okay, also all other outcomes.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
If that exit poll is right, another election inside a year.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Invest in pamphlet printers.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Almost identical to the 2015 exit poll, only 2 seats difference. Was delighted last time, horrified this time at the same result.
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