Identity politics are toxic and allow idiotic and hateful cretins to colonize minds.
Identity politics are toxic and allow idiotic and hateful cretins to colonize minds.
I don't associate the good or the bad of my ancestors as something that is at all relevant today. Its past time that we moved past things like skin tone as a means of categorizing people. Do I think Lee statues do any good? No. Do I think tearing them down does any good? No. Do I care all that much one way or another - not really so if it makes ya happy go ahead.Originally Posted by Loki
Too bad Lee was a symbol of the segregationists 50 years ago.
Hope is the denial of reality
I really don't give a rat's ass who he was a symbol to 80 years after he died. That's got little relevant bearing on his own historical importance.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
You may think that, but it is the reason why that statue exists at all.
Historically he was a traitor and did not merit any monument inside of the United States he betrayed.
Congratulations America
Using the ownership of slaves as criterium is silly revisionism, betrayal of duty to one's country though has always been a strong reason to withhold honor.
Congratulations America
Like Jefferson etc?
History isn't perfect. If we pull down the statue of everyone who doesn't live up to today's standards there'd soon be no statues left. This whitewashing and destruction of history is not something to be proud of whether it happens in Palmyra by ISIS or locally.
Since we're talking about a person who spilled blood to defend the right to enslave black people in a time when an increasing number of his contemporaries were beginning to realize that was a shitty thing to do, I think we can safely dismiss the argument about revisionism and unfair standards.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Agreed and we should teach and all learn about the flaws of history not just the parts we like. Does destroying historical artifacts that have negative connotations improve our ability to learn?
This is a bit odd of a position to hold considering most of these statues were put up during the height of the Klan era (including the one in Charlottesville) or by groups like the Daughters of the Confederacy. They are very much there as attempts to white wash history and as symbols of white supremacy.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Given that this man is still glorified, and statues of him are still viewed in a positive light, in spite of what he stood for... yeah, I'd say that leaving it up did impede some people's ability to learn. But you don't have to destroy the statue, just put it somewhere else where it can be viewed as an educational symbol of bigotry. Like, a museum, a garbage dump at the base of Mt. Rushmore, etc.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Then we should discuss educate about that not pull it down. I'd rather put up a new statue to someone we better respect today like Henry Bibb nearby than tear down things. Removing negative historical monuments doesn't remove the negative parts of history it just hides it away. We get the same here where people are trying to remove statues to people like Rhodes.
Flags are different to statues. Pull down any Confederate flags absolutely.
Why should a racist statue remain in place because the racists got it approved first? AFAIK these statues aren't being destroyed by the governments that are removing them. They are being relocated to more appropriate places, including the one in Charlottesville. Now the public did recently rip down a different Klan era statue (which is what you should be ragging about) but that one was super shitty, referencing lines from a confederate song that is also super shitty.
There is no difference between a flag and a statue when their intent and backing is the same.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Because that is how history and culture evolves. We have statues of some nasty people up and down the country here but they've evolved over a thousand years or more. Walk up and down Liverpool or London and there's statues every few metres in some places of quite contradictory people. Some good, some terrible by today's standards. And children can look at them and ask about them and learn.
I would much rather the racist statue is supplemented with a statue of a slave or an abolitionist etc near to it than just removed altogether. Then when people look at the statues they can learn about Lee who fought and lost to keep slavery. They can also learn about the evils the men and women who suffered through it endured and how and why they ended up getting freed.
History has negative spots not just good bits. Those who forget history ...
EDIT: I see you edited in a bit about no difference between flags and statues. Statues generally are historical monuments while flags generally are contemporary. If you are flying a flag then that generally means you support that today but statues as monuments from history have no such backing. Yours is still a young country but that doesn't excuse vandalism of history, ours has monuments dating back to Roman times but that doesn't mean we support the Roman Emperor etc now does it?
Stop blaming white supremacy on ‘identity politics’
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...tity-politics/
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Come on Fuzzy, huge straw man with Jefferson. Want to line up all the historical figures you can think of and ask me to say boo about them, just to get me on record, and STILL not make an effective argument against my disdain for glorifying General Lee? Try lining up all the figures who led a war against the United States, ask me if I think they should be on Mount Rushmore, that might actually be relevant. Please, when did you get so lazy?
And all the hair splitting aside - resign his commission, the 10th Amendment, whatever the fuck apologist bullshit you want to trot out - Lee was a key figure in a war against the United States and for the perpetuation of slavery and he should NOT be glorified for it anywhere in this country. And fuck you on your high I'm-an-expert-so-I'm-right horse, you arrogant prick.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
That straw man did not deserve a response.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
That's like saying that someone like Ulysses S. Grant couldn't have a statue anywhere in Virginia because he fought in a war against Virginia. After the Civil War finished, Virginia and the United States became part of one and the same nation again with people on both sides Americans and Virginians simultaneously. You don't write off one side of a civil war.
I used to live off a road called Cromwell Avenue. Named after a man who led a civil war against my country, who later became its leader after winning the civil war and executing the king - only to have the monarchy re-established after Cromwell's death because Cromwell's reign was not well-regarded and the monarchy was preferred. Should we tear down all Cromwell statues and remove all references to him? Or is he part of our history now for good or ill?
I'd rather not be an ignorant philistine. We should learn from history not just celebrate the bits we like and ignore the rest.
not celebrating, not erecting, not maintaining statues, plaques or flags of racist people, during racist times, for racist reasons ≠ ignoring history.
There is a time and a place for such things. A public park, or more commonly court houses, is not it.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Why not?
because those should be welcoming places where people should be free to focus on important matters or enjoyment without being lorded over by symbols of racism.
shit like this belongs in places like museums and memorials, where the sole purpose is unrestricted and free learning.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Statues don't lord over anyone. People have been free to enjoy themselves in that park for nearly a hundred years until these cultural vandals decided to act like ISIS and start destroying monuments.
Racism is part of your past whether you like it or not, destroying monuments does nothing to change that.
Your privilege and ignorance is showing.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
L.
M.
A.
O.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Oh boo hoo go cry me a river.
Seriously, I have indeed been very privileged to see many statues and monuments all over the world, from across many centuries in my native country, to fascinating Buddhist monuments in Thailand, thousands of year old monuments in Egypt and much more besides. I am respectful towards history and appreciate being able to see and learn about all sorts of people and cultures - some pleasant, some not so - the good, the bad and the ugly. One day my children and hopefully my future grandchildren and descendants will be privileged enough to be able to see all sorts too. No doubt some of which would shock and horrify them too, which is not a bad thing.
I'm happy to be proud of and own that privilege. Not wanting to see anything that doesn't match today's values be destroyed whether it be in Palmyra or Charlottesville doesn't betray ignorance though.
What is the difference between ISIS destroying Palmyra because those monuments went against their values ... and these vandals destroying statues because they go against their values?
Other than the fact you may agree with the American vandals values more than ISIS, what is the difference? Either we respect history or we don't.
ok, now I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. Is that seriously your honest to god definition and defense for privilege in this context? Are you still defending your claim that everyone was able to enjoy this park for the past "nearly" hundred years?
some actual history for your ignorance:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...torically.html
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Saying the military champion of the Confederacy and all it stood for should not be honored and glorified with statues in the public square is not remotely the same as writing off Virginians.
Cromwell's history within the larger British history is obviously only very loosely analogous to Lee within the larger history of the United States. It isn't so clear as with Lee, which is why you chose it to try and bolster your argument. But it doesn't.I used to live off a road called Cromwell Avenue. Named after a man who led a civil war against my country, who later became its leader after winning the civil war and executing the king - only to have the monarchy re-established after Cromwell's death because Cromwell's reign was not well-regarded and the monarchy was preferred. Should we tear down all Cromwell statues and remove all references to him? Or is he part of our history now for good or ill?
Then try harder.I'd rather not be an ignorant philistine.
Saying the military champion of the Confederacy and all it stood for should not be honored and glorified with statues in the public square is not remotely the same as ignoring the history of the civil war.We should learn from history not just celebrate the bits we like and ignore the rest.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Not sarcastic.
Yes it is a privilege to be well traveled and educated, what would you call it?
Yes I do defend the claim. The statue is nearly a hundred years old. I understand there was segregation (which I despise) in America so maybe it wasn't universally able to be enjoyed in which case the problem was segregation and not a statue.
That is privilege. You are absolutely correct. The fact that you used it in such a manner in this thread under the existing context, and you see no problem with doing so, actually explains a good bit for why you've shown yourself to be such an awful person in the BLM and it's sister thread.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
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