TRUMP 2016

[Loki]

False binary! I'm not talking about 'forcing' people to read certain news but I am asking if/how there's a way to remind conservative voters that voting for a candidate because he's a Bible thumping Baptist is antithetical to our democratic foundation.

You really can't. You can go down the education path, but state voters have a huge influence over what that entails. Telling them that source A or piece of information X is better will backfire more often than not. This isn't a battle over facts or even ideology. It's a battle over feelings (you know, the thing you kept on going on about before the election). And good luck changing those.

[GGT]

You really can't. You can go down the education path, but state voters have a huge influence over what that entails. Telling them that source A or piece of information X is better will backfire more often than not. This isn't a battle over facts or even ideology. It's a battle over feelings (you know, the thing you kept on going on about before the election). And good luck changing those.

Bah, I refuse to believe that our democracy will cede to feelings, even though Trump won the presidency that way. And I can't believe the Republican party will allow itself to be exploited the same way. At some point, rational and reasonable people will prevail.

It's unfortunate and sadly ironic that McCain is one of those people, when I said he wasn't a good presidential candidate because of his age and health status.

[RandBlade]

False binary! I'm not talking about 'forcing' people to read certain news but I am asking if/how there's a way to remind conservative voters that voting for a candidate because he's a Bible thumping Baptist is antithetical to our democratic foundation.

That's the job of the opposition. That's the Democrats job.

[Aimless]

Did Alabaman Republicans really just manage to elect a more reprehensible person than Trump's favored candidate? What the fuck

[Aimless]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/28/politi...nce/index.html

Good job Steely

[Loki]

Too busy registering to vote as a female.

[Steely Glint]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/28/politi...nce/index.html

Good job Steely

What did I do?

[Ominous Gamer]

Trump managed to accomplish quite a bit in his latest ranting. He has figured out how to politicize any type of criticism, likely learned from Price. Claiming that a mayor from PR is attacking him because the democrats are controlling her? Also managed to push the racist narrative that “Brown people are dependent and want handouts”. The worst humanitarian crisis in his presidency (so far) and the racist fucker is still putting his ego over people literally dying.

[Aimless]

He knows what he's doing. His supporters are loving his attacks on PR.

[wiggin]

Trump managed to accomplish quite a bit in his latest ranting. He has figured out how to politicize any type of criticism, likely learned from Price. Claiming that a mayor from PR is attacking him because the democrats are controlling her? Also managed to push the racist narrative that “Brown people are dependent and want handouts”. The worst humanitarian crisis in his presidency (so far) and the racist fucker is still putting his ego over people literally dying.

I have to say that while I'm not super well informed about the situation in PR, all of the news I've heard (none of which is even remotely pro-Trump) suggests that there simply isn't a problem getting aid to the island; the problem is distributing said aid inside PR when their entire supply chain has fallen apart. It's not obvious to me that there is a whole lot Trump should be doing that he isn't already - most of the suggestions I've seen from the more hysterical corners of the internet wouldn't actually solve the real bottlenecks.

It's entirely possible that there are things Trump should be doing - I've thought that maybe there would be value in bringing in more military or FEMA personnel to aid in logistics - for example, the USAF has guys whose only job is to rapidly get airfields running at full tilt again, something that it sounds like the PR airport could have used. And maybe there's scope for more road clearing or possibly importing some truck drivers? But these are pretty niggly details and everything I've heard from PR officials coordinating the disaster recovery suggests that what they've asked for, they've gotten. There are thousands of containers of aid just sitting in the PR port because of the logistical nightmare on the island. I have yet to hear a coherent story precisely delineating where the bottleneck is, but it doesn't seem to be stingy provision of federal aid.

I think Trump's tone is, as usual, abhorrent. But I'm not actually convinced this is a major policy failure on his part. It might be that as we get more information it will indeed become apparent that he has been woefully inadequate in handling the crisis. But it's also possible that given the circumstances his underlings did an okay job.

[LittleFuzzy]

I think Trump's tone is, as usual, abhorrent.

In this case I'm perfectly willing to condemn him just for the tone, because it's racist garbage. He's calling disaster relief handouts because Puerto Rico is primarily Spanish-speaking and a territory rather than a state. He didn't say anything like that regarding Houston, or Florida. But PR, hell they don't even vote in the general election.

[wiggin]

Totally agreed on tone and that he's a dick. Just a lot of the critique I've seen all week (before his latest racist rant) was essentially saying 'people are dying and Trump isn't doing enough' but I'm frankly not convinced that's the case.

[Being]

Totally agreed on tone and that he's a dick. Just a lot of the critique I've seen all week (before his latest racist rant) was essentially saying 'people are dying and Trump isn't doing enough' but I'm frankly not convinced that's the case.

Really? Because C130s and parachutes are a dime a dozen. Why we asking for truck drivers when there are no roads? This incompetence reeks of indifference.

[Ominous Gamer]

It took him a damn near week to give PR any attention. We should have had 20-30k troops on the way the day after it passed. Some of the first people to respond were private entities that had no connection to FEMA or their EO plans. Pitbull used his plane to rescue hospital patients. Elon is sending solar panels and batteries (congrats GGT). Carnival cancelled cruises to rescue people. Its hard to characterize the initial response as anything but poor.

Then again, my city still looks like this (taken today):



Its naive, at head in the sand levels, to think his handling of the situation is somehow different than how he publicly communicates about it.

[wiggin]

Really? Because C130s and parachutes are a dime a dozen. Why we asking for truck drivers when there are no roads? This incompetence reeks of indifference.

I suspect that airdrops from a C130 are actually a pretty awful way to handle this (not to mention hardly cheap or easy to scrounge spare airlift capacity). They're notoriously hard to target (a guy I know works on designing 'precision airdrop' systems for the DoD and it's damned difficult to get anything approaching accuracy), and you're limited in the types of stuff you can airdrop. The federal government has used helicopters to drop off aid/medicines/fuel to remote areas and medevac patients with emergent needs (e.g. dialysis patients who can't get access to a clinic with power). Beyond that, far more aid in terms of bulk supplies can be delivered through ground transport (albeit spotty) than through any reasonable number of airdrops.

I did some looking to see whether anyone has been suggesting that this was a solution to the relief efforts for PR and I've seen essentially zero people seriously suggesting this was a fix. The vast majority of suggestions have looked at improving logistics at the port and on the roads, which seem like an eminently reasonable solution - but it's not obvious to me that the federal government is the rate limiting step here.

It took him a damn near week to give PR any attention. We should have had 20-30k troops on the way the day after it passed. Some of the first people to respond where private entities that had no connection to FEMA or their EO plans. Pitbull used his plane to rescue hospital patients. Elon is sending solar panels and batteries (congrats GT). Carnival cancelled cruises to rescue people. Its hard to characterize the initial response as anything but poor.

Then again, my city still looks like this (taken today):



Its naive, at head in the sand levels, to think his handling of the situation is somehow different than how he publicly communicates about it.

I don't think Trump is handling the situation at all. But I think that FEMA and elements of the DoD are, and it's not obvious to me that any requests they have made for resources have been denied by the administration. Would 20k troops have helped the situation? Maybe, I don't know - it takes time to spin up that kind of manpower for transport to an island and there's already ~10k federal responders there, including elements of the Army Corps of Engineers, which is the group that's actually crucial for re-establishing the island's infrastructure and supply chain.

I have no doubt that PR is suffering and that we should be making all reasonable efforts to get the island up and running as quickly as possible. It is not, however, obvious to me what should be happening that isn't already - and none of the critique I've seen of Trump has been particularly specific about what should be done. The mayor of San Juan is absolutely right that conditions on the island are unacceptable, but she has not articulated (at least in anything I've read) specific actions she'd like taken that have not been already put in place. Maybe it's just a matter of degree - the US needs to send more manpower to the island. But it's just as possible that the rate limiting step is elsewhere.

I'm not defending Trump's rhetoric or even his actions - I am simply saying that I don't know if the response is lackluster or more or less what you'd expect given the scale of the devastation - there is no obvious glaring lack of initiative/support by FEMA. I'm sure we'll get a better feel for things in the next weeks and months to come.

[Ominous Gamer]

am simply saying that I don't know if the response is lackluster or more or less what you'd expect given the scale of the devastation - there is no obvious glaring lack of initiative/support by FEMA. I'm sure we'll get a better feel for things in the next weeks and months to come.

and yet the Jones Act waiver is only for 10 days. No need to wait weeks or months. Hell, it took him a week after the hurricane before he managed to get around to that.

[wiggin]

I don't think shipping to the island is the bottleneck. The Jones act should be permanently ditched as an uncompetitive subsidy, but it's not the problem here.

[Being]

I suspect that airdrops from a C130 are actually a pretty awful way to handle this (not to mention hardly cheap or easy to scrounge spare airlift capacity). They're notoriously hard to target (a guy I know works on designing 'precision airdrop' systems for the DoD and it's damned difficult to get anything approaching accuracy), and you're limited in the types of stuff you can airdrop. The federal government has used helicopters to drop off aid/medicines/fuel to remote areas and medevac patients with emergent needs (e.g. dialysis patients who can't get access to a clinic with power). Beyond that, far more aid in terms of bulk supplies can be delivered through ground transport (albeit spotty) than through any reasonable number of airdrops.

There are no roads. Building roads takes time. Dropping water purifiers, generators, food, fuel, toilet paper, soap ... well you got gravity on your side. And probably cheaper than trying to make the roads passable in time to save people. Trump people should really take this more seriously than they appear to be doing. Lots of brown people coming to MAGA.

[wiggin]

I am not an expert on the provision of humanitarian aid, but airdrops are generally not used in all but the most desperate of situations, and even then their utility is often limited at best.

The roads don't need to be built, they just need to be cleared - and selecting a drop site is probably far from easy for most of the communities in need. Not an easy task to get the roads cleared, no, but the volume of goods you can move by truck is always going to be way higher (and far more precise) than airdropping some goods and hoping they land somewhere people can get them. And dropping enough to help the 3.5 million people on the island (or, say, the 50% of those who are far enough away from the port to be in trouble) is essentially infeasible. They have done small, targeted airborne deliveries of supplies (often fuel) for facilities that absolutely need to stay running - e.g. hospitals - as well as evacuating people who are similarly high risk. That seems like an eminently reasonable use of air assets (in addition to the supplies being flown into the airport for distribution).

I could be wrong - maybe the PR government and FEMA are begging the administration to use massive airdrops of supplies and Trump is saying 'let those brownies die!'. But it doesn't seem like that's the case given the interviews I've heard and read from people in both organizations. The only thing that might appreciably help is more help in getting the infrastructure up and running again - power, water, port facilities, roads, trucks/drivers, etc. I know they're getting help on this, I don't have any sense of the magnitude of the help and whether adding more manpower would speed anything up.

[RandBlade]

Not only that but of course clearing roads is precisely what is needed not just to help in this situation but to return life to normal afterwards.

[Ominous Gamer]

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/1...latives-243395
DOJ releases overruled memos finding it illegal for presidents to appoint relatives

Someone wasn't paying attention to which FOIA requests needed denied

[EyeKhan]

I have to say that while I'm not super well informed about the situation in PR, all of the news I've heard (none of which is even remotely pro-Trump) suggests that there simply isn't a problem getting aid to the island; the problem is distributing said aid inside PR when their entire supply chain has fallen apart. It's not obvious to me that there is a whole lot Trump should be doing that he isn't already - most of the suggestions I've seen from the more hysterical corners of the internet wouldn't actually solve the real bottlenecks.

I think what was needed from the beginning were fuel, road clearing equipment, trucks, and drivers, more or less in that order. The fuel seems to be in supply at the port(s), but the rest has been the bottleneck. My understanding is that FEMA doesn't have trucks and relies on local national guard for those big haulers that can pass through deepish water and mud. If the Federal Govt could have done one thing to respond better in PR, I think it would have involved getting military logistics and construction assets - vehicles, machines and operators - deployed to the port(s) ASAP to get the roads cleared and the aid moving. Other than that, I can't think of what the President could have done to improve things, except maybe keep his fucking asshole mouth shut. But that's never going to happen.

[RandBlade]

Aren't the military engineers there doing precisely that already? As much as the President is an arsehole, the general body of governance like the military professionals etc know what they're doing even without the Presidents input.

Agreed that the President simply should STFU.

[LittleFuzzy]

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/1...latives-243395
DOJ releases overruled memos finding it illegal for presidents to appoint relatives

Someone wasn't paying attention to which FOIA requests needed denied

The First Ladies of numerous Presidents have sat on such commissions and panels though, both before and after the '67 law. Not saying other family members are allowed but there is apparently leeway for wives.

[RandBlade]

Doesn't the link specifically refer to Mrs Carter? Wasn't she First Lady or was it a different Mrs Carter?

[EyeKhan]

Aren't the military engineers there doing precisely that already? As much as the President is an arsehole, the general body of governance like the military professionals etc know what they're doing even without the Presidents input.

I think if trucks, drivers, heavy equipment and operators were there in sufficient supply, then there would not be a road-clearing and supply-hauling bottleneck. As for the president's input, I'm under the impression the military wouldn't just go respond to a hurricane all on its own. Someone has to order them, and Trump being the (god help us all) Commander in Chief, then yeah, he has to have input. And it could be that they did send troops down, engineers, whatever, but maybe not enough trucks and drivers, you know? And if Trump did order the military to go to PR and make everything work, likely with that level of give-a-shit factor, then maybe it's some general or clerk or whoever the fuck that didn't think to go heavy on the logistics support. But however things have gone wrong, in the end, it's the President's fault. At least it has been in the past. This fucker doesn't take responsibility for anything - never has.

EDIT: Now that I really think about it, I don't have any reason to believe the response to Puerto Rico's need has, in fact, been inadequate - at least in the way the response to New Orleans was. I've heard some people complaining in Puerto Rico, specifically the mayor of San Juan, along with Trump's inexcusable response, which became the story, and I've heard discussion about what the problem is with getting aid out of the port(s) and into the country side, but I don't have any real reason to believe the government has been fucking up.

Is it negligent and incompetent to not have anticipated/ or underestimated the level of need for trucking/ road clearing out of the port city (s)? Or maybe the level of need was anticipated, but the necessary resources were simply not available outside the timing they arrived. And how bad was the miss? I don't have any idea, really.

[Ominous Gamer]

In our EOC its called "have chainsaw, will travel"
Quickest way to recover after a disaster is man power and the supplies needed for them. Its one of the biggest lessons we learned (recovery wise) from Andrew. Yet our military only sent 2 ships in those first 6 days after Maria made landfall.

[LittleFuzzy]

Doesn't the link specifically refer to Mrs Carter? Wasn't she First Lady or was it a different Mrs Carter?

Yes. Bearing that advisory in mind, President Carter made his wife the "Honorary Chairwoman who just happened to end up doing all the work associated with being the chair of the committee."

[EyeKhan]

Yet our military only sent 2 ships in those first 6 days after Maria made landfall.

That sounds bad, but it doesn't mean that much unless you understand what kind of ships they were -say, how big- what was in them, and what their mission was... I don't mean to argue the government did it right, I just found myself condemning the hurricane response without knowing if there's something to condemn yet. And that's a mistake.

[RandBlade]

I would imagine in this sort of situation the President would be told by his staff "this is the plan" to which he says "go ahead".

I highly doubt he is coming up with the plans or turning down the advice of his Generals etc