Brexit Begins

[RandBlade]

I want equality in the context of how easy it is for all UK citizens to have access to EU citizenship. I'm pretty sure I've made that clear several times.

Again there is no such thing as "EU citizenship" in isolation! It is equally easy, get citizenship from an EU nation.

Not one UK citizen gets EU citizenship any differently post-Brexit than any other - Irish citizens will get it as easily as French/German/Dutch or other citizens will. The fact the Irish get Irish citizenship is neither here nor there. Which EU nation do you think should 'easily' give you citizenship post-Brexit?

Was it? I thought your original response was to try and challenge me on why I felt it was unfair.

The fact you are still referring to Northern Irish as "UK citizens" in relation to EU citizenship rather than "Irish citizens" shows you still don't either understand or fully accept that they are Irish citizens.

Those born in Northern Ireland are not UK citizens eligible for Irish citizenship, they are Irish citizens eligible for Irish citizenship.

[gogobongopop]

I have no idea what the solution is. I've said that.

Just because I personally don't know what the solution is, doesn't mean I can't feel the situation is unjust.

But I have a lot of faith in the negotiating power and expertise of our politicians - maybe they'll be able to design something for us. After all, is that what taking back control is all about?

[gogobongopop]

The fact you are still referring to Northern Irish as "UK citizens" in relation to EU citizenship rather than "Irish citizens" shows you still don't either understand or fully accept that they are Irish citizens.

Those born in Northern Ireland are not UK citizens eligible for Irish citizenship, they are Irish citizens eligible for Irish citizenship.

Oh OK. Everything is hunky dory then. I feel much better now.

[RandBlade]

I have no idea what the solution is. I've said that.

Just because I personally don't know what the solution is, doesn't mean I can't feel the situation is unjust.

But I have a lot of faith in the negotiating power and expertise of our politicians - maybe they'll be able to design something for us. After all, is that what taking back control is all about?

I'm surprised you don't know what the solution is because I do: don't exit the EU/re-join the EU after exiting.

"Taking back control" doesn't mean having citizenship of a third party state and nobody ever implied it would, it means our nation's laws will be decided by our nation. The EU will be a foreign state and you don't generally get citizenship of foreign states.
.

[LittleFuzzy]

I want equality in the context of how easy it is for all UK citizens to have access to EU citizenship. I'm pretty sure I've made that clear several times.

And you have it. What you don't have is equality with Irish citizens. It happens that various Irish citizens are dual-nationals and also have UK citizenship but that is completely divorced from what UK citizenship provides. The only way this even remotely works the way you want to pretend it does (because it's actually got jack-all to do with equality for you) is if the Irish citizenship given to those in Northern Ireland wasn't "real" to you. You wouldn't be raising these objections if we were talking about say, a French national who married someone in the UK, applied for and gained UK citizenship and retained their French citizenship (I'm assuming here that the French also allow dual-nationalities, if they don't pick another country) you wouldn't be objecting about them retaining their EU citizenship. You grant that they're really a French citizen. Do you feel that the guys in/from NI aren't actually Irish? Because the Irish certainly don't agree with you about that, which is why things are arranged as they are in the first place.

[RandBlade]

Precisely! That's what I was trying to say too but you've put it more succinctly. I like the remark about how "if the Irish citizenship given to those in Northern Ireland wasn't "real" to you."

[Khendraja'aro]

"Taking back control" doesn't mean having citizenship of a third party state and nobody ever implied it would, it means our nation's laws will be decided by our nation.

Yeah, "take back control!"

When will you do that? I mean, you practically rolled over and begged for treats right now. And don't give me the crap about: "Well, we can simply dissolve our agreements if we don't like it!" Because you're currently seeing how "simple" dissolving an agreement actually is. Unless of course you want to dissolve things unilaterally. In which case even North Korea will laugh at you for your stupidity.

[gogobongopop]

Ok, you're both starting to lose me now. Feels like we're going round in circles, which is usually an indication that a discussion has run its cause.

However, one last go: I humbly request that you both, as concisely as possible, explain why it is unreasonable of me to find it unfair that some parts of the UK will have access to EU citizenship simply by being born, and others will need to meet a complex and involved set of criteria.

Thank you.

[RandBlade]

It is unreasonable people no part of the UK is being granted EU citizenship simply by being born.

All parts of Ireland will have access to EU citizenship simply by being born.

The UK is not part of the equation for Irish citizenship. It is not a section of the UK that is being granted EU citizenship, it is all of Ireland that is being granted it and one part of the UK happens to be on Ireland - but the Irish are giving Irish citizenship to Irish citizens, not UK ones.

Don't you accept Northern Irish as being real Irish citizens or are they just UK ones in your eyes?

[LittleFuzzy]

Ok, you're both starting to lose me now. Feels like we're going round in circles, which is usually an indication that a discussion has run its cause.

However, one last go: I humbly request that you both, as concisely as possible, explain why it is unreasonable of me to find it unfair that some parts of the UK will have access to EU citizenship simply by being born, and others will need to meet a complex and involved set of criteria.

Because it shows a complete lack of understanding of the intent, spirit, and letter of the Good Friday Accords? Which did things like acknowledge that NI would only be part of the UK as long as a majority of both NI and RoI (NOT the UK) wished it to be and that regardless of whether it was in the UK or part of a united Ireland it was a right of the people of NI specifically to ""identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both."

NI is not part of the UK the way wherever you are is part of the UK. It has not been such for at least 30 years, by solemn treaty meant to achieve peace out of a prior state of violent conflict. It is unreasonable of you because it objects to the entire idea behind which your peace treaty was achieved. NI is a part of Ireland that happens to be administered by the UK. Going over the key points in the actual text of the GFA, I understated or misstated the case earlier. NI is part of Ireland and it's the UK which grants the Irish there dual-citizenship.

[Aimless]

In other news, the special relationship is full of love:

Twitter Link

Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Only reasonable position for Hammond & no. 10.

[Timbuk2]

An influential American think-tank, The Rand Corporation, weighs in with a detailed study of the impacts of Brexit. Seeing as Davis just couldn't be bothered to do any kind of IA, I'm glad someone has.

"The analysis clearly shows that the UK will be economically worse-off outside of the EU under most trade scenarios - the key question for the UK is how much worse-off," said Charles Ries, a vice-president at Rand and the report's lead author.

Three cheers for the great British public, voting to shoot itself in the foot. Screw that, voting to shoot itself in both feet and one hand for good measure.

[RandBlade]

We'll see. The Great British Public of course disagrees.

[Aimless]

An influential American think-tank, The Rand Corporation, weighs in with a detailed study of the impacts of Brexit. Seeing as Davis just couldn't be bothered to do any kind of IA, I'm glad someone has.

Utterly disgraceful that Davis essentially lied to parliament and got away with it, and is now getting away with both lying to the public about the agreement as well as undermining future negotiations. Even more embarrassing than undertaking something like Brexit without doing impact assessments, esp. in light of the way Brits demanded impact assessments for pretty much every single decision made in Brussels.

[Khendraja'aro]

We'll see. The Great British Public of course disagrees.

And? I've always said that the collective IQ of a group is the IQ of its most stupid member, divided by the number of group members.

[RandBlade]

And? I've always said that the collective IQ of a group is the IQ of its most stupid member, divided by the number of group members.

You must be in a very large group then.

[gogobongopop]

It is unreasonable people no part of the UK is being granted EU citizenship simply by being born.

All parts of Ireland will have access to EU citizenship simply by being born.

The UK is not part of the equation for Irish citizenship. It is not a section of the UK that is being granted EU citizenship, it is all of Ireland that is being granted it and one part of the UK happens to be on Ireland - but the Irish are giving Irish citizenship to Irish citizens, not UK ones.

Don't you accept Northern Irish as being real Irish citizens or are they just UK ones in your eyes?

Because it shows a complete lack of understanding of the intent, spirit, and letter of the Good Friday Accords? Which did things like acknowledge that NI would only be part of the UK as long as a majority of both NI and RoI (NOT the UK) wished it to be and that regardless of whether it was in the UK or part of a united Ireland it was a right of the people of NI specifically to ""identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both."

NI is not part of the UK the way wherever you are is part of the UK. It has not been such for at least 30 years, by solemn treaty meant to achieve peace out of a prior state of violent conflict. It is unreasonable of you because it objects to the entire idea behind which your peace treaty was achieved. NI is a part of Ireland that happens to be administered by the UK. Going over the key points in the actual text of the GFA, I understated or misstated the case earlier. NI is part of Ireland and it's the UK which grants the Irish there dual-citizenship.

Thank you for clarifying. I'm afraid none of that compels me to feel that it's fair on me that some citizens governed by my government will be born with EU citizenship, and I won't.

You seem to be hung up on me objecting in some way to the GFA. I don't. But if that makes me ignorant, selfish or disrespectful in your eyes then that's an outcome I'm willing to accept.

We'll see. The Great British Public, who are the most ignorant about the EU compared with any other EU nation, of course disagrees thanks to a campaign of fear, untruths and lies.

Fixed.

[Khendraja'aro]

You must be in a very large group then.

Too bad that it's not a contest of guessing the weight of an ox, then.

Next up: Rand tries to tell us that large crowds are quite good at quantifying the distribution of electron density of the 2p_x orbital of tungsten.

You seem to have missed the counterpoints under "criticism" under your own link.

[RandBlade]

Thank you for clarifying. I'm afraid none of that compels me to feel that it's fair on me that some citizens governed by my government will be born with EU citizenship, and I won't.

You seem to be hung up on me objecting in some way to the GFA. I don't. But if that makes me ignorant, selfish or disrespectful in your eyes then that's an outcome I'm willing to accept.

You still keep using the word EU when they're actually born with Irish citizenship, for which the EU is an extension. Their nationality is Irish, not EU. Their passport will say Irish is their nationality so try and use the right terms.

It's not unfair that some are born with Irish citizenship and you're not because they're real Irish citizens born in Ireland and you're not. Do you have any reason at all why a British citizen born in England should get Irish citizenship?

Some citizens governed by your government will be born with American citizenship. Is that unfair?
Some citizens governed by your government will be born with Australian citizenship. Is that unfair?

My wife, born in South Africa, was born with British citizenship. Was that unfair?
My brother, born in Australia, was born with British citizenship. Was that unfair?

Fixed.

Nah the Great British Public rejected Project Fear. They rejected the lies that were designed to make us cling to nurse for fear of worse.

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-01-26/what-happened-to-that-post-brexit-recession/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors.../#71ba1b383775

[gogobongopop]

Do you have any reason at all why a British citizen born in England should get Irish citizenship?

This is getting silly. When have I ever said I want Irish citizenship?

Some citizens governed by your government will be born with American citizenship. Is that unfair?
Some citizens governed by your government will be born with Australian citizenship. Is that unfair?

My wife, born in South Africa, was born with British citizenship. Was that unfair?
My brother, born in Australia, was born with British citizenship. Was that unfair?

None of those are comparable with the situation I currently face i.e. the loss of my "birthright", but others within the UK keep it.

Nah the Great British Public rejected Project Fear. They rejected the lies that were designed to make us cling to nurse for fear of worse.

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-01-26/what-happened-to-that-post-brexit-recession/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors.../#71ba1b383775

What lies?

Do you mean forecasts? Oh yes, that's right, we've been told not to listen to the experts anymore; however I didn't realise we had gone so far as to call them liars.

[RandBlade]

This is getting silly. When have I ever said I want Irish citizenship?

When you keep comparing yourself to Irish citizens. EU citizenship does not exist in a vacuum, it is an extension of citizenship of a member state. Irish citizens get EU citizenship because Ireland is a member state - which member state do you think you should get citizenship of that you don't at the moment?

None of those are comparable with the situation I currently face i.e. the loss of my "birthright", but others within the UK keep it.

No, others within Ireland keep it.

What lies?

Do you mean forecasts? Oh yes, that's right, we've been told not to listen to the experts anymore; however I didn't realise we had gone so far as to call them liars.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...es-to-leave-eu
"£15bn tax rises, increase in fuel and alcohol duties and £15bn cuts to health, education and defence if Britain leaves the EU"

That was referred to in the articles.

[LittleFuzzy]

Thank you for clarifying. I'm afraid none of that compels me to feel that it's fair on me that some citizens governed by my government will be born with EU citizenship, and I won't.

Nothing can compel you to accept reality. There is, in fact, absolutely no reason why it might be the least bit unfair that someone born in Ireland, or in any other country, but who is governed by your government at some point in time will still have EU citizenship and you won't. Kudos on calling it your "birthright" by the way, since you didn't have it at birth unless you're at least a decade younger than I thought you were, seeing as it wasn't established until Maastricht in '92. But you feel as you feel, GGT.

[gogobongopop]

When you keep comparing yourself to Irish citizens.

I'm comparing myself to British citizens which what the majority of people on NI identify themselves as. See the 2011 census if you want proof.

I'll respond to other points ASAP.

[Aimless]

RB, you really should learn a little more about the wisdom of crowds.

[gogobongopop]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...es-to-leave-eu
"£15bn tax rises, increase in fuel and alcohol duties and £15bn cuts to health, education and defence if Britain leaves the EU"

That was referred to in the articles.

So it's a lie when our chancellor outlines his plans based on independent economic forecasts and advice? I'll remember that at the next budget.

That pales in comparison to the manipulation designed by Project Fear.

[RandBlade]

I'm comparing myself to British citizens which what the majority of people on NI identify themselves as. See the 2011 census if you want proof.

I'll respond to other points ASAP.

If they define themselves as solely a British citizen then they will not have EU citizenship. It is only if they take up Irish citizenship, having been born in Ireland, that they will have EU citizenship.

Why compare yourself to Irish citizens taking up Irish citizenship having been born in Ireland?

[RandBlade]

So it's a lie when our chancellor outlines his plans based on independent economic forecasts and advice? I'll remember that at the next budget.

That pales in comparison to the manipulation designed by Project Fear.

If a Chancellor says "vote for me or I'll do this" then doesn't do that and has no real intention of doing that then yes it is a lie and it was Project Fear.

Trying to rebrand the Leave campaign as Project Fear when that was the government campaign is very amusing. There was no positive argument made by the government or almost anyone else in favour of remaining, it was all doom and gloom if we dared to vote Leave. You're still relentlessly negative and gloomy 18 months later. I on the other hand and most of the Vote Leave prospectus was optimistic and I still am optimistic. That things can and will be better. You may think it is delusional or a pipedream but it is hopeful and positive not Fear.

Where was the positivity or optimism from your side? If there'd been some rather than relentless Fear alone you'd have probably won.

[Khendraja'aro]

Aaaand, to absolutely no one's surprise it's one step forward and two steps back.

Didn't anyone tell your bloody idiot politicians to keep their mouth shut?

[RandBlade]

No of course not.

[Khendraja'aro]

Some Master Tradesmen the lot of you are. Geeze.

In Germany we call that, roughly translated: "What you built up in front of you, you just tore down again with your ass while turning."