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  1. #1
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Default Members of the American Lung Association should lose their medical licenses...

    For putting bullshit politics before science and medicine.

    And then they should all be kicked in the nuts by every user of e-cigarettes in the country.

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...age=true&cat=5

    The American Lung Association has come out in full force by sending lobbyists to various state legislators to argue against the electronic cigarette.1 While on the surface this seems like a reasonable effort, a lack of
    understanding the motivations of the electronic cigarette user has placed the ALA squarely on the wrong side of the fight for public health.

    A source at the ALA, an organization which claims to be dedicated to "save lives by improving lung health and preventing lung disease," acknowledged in response to a recent email inquiry that "yes there are fewer chemicals but your body is still being exposed to chemicals that should not be in your system. Nicotine can also cause the body harm, so yes many of the products do contain nicotine, but used correctly a person uses the products to wean down their nicotine level so they can completely get rid of it. Many people are using the e-cigs as an alternative to smoking the regular cigs thinking that it will not harm them and have no intention of quitting, just switching."

    So, while the ALA admitted that electronic cigarettes contain fewer chemicals than tobacco cigarettes, they refuse to acknowledge the obvious health benefit that lack of the most toxic chemicals provides to the smokers who switch. Are lives and lung health the real issue here or is nicotine addiction? The ALA must know that numerous studies show that, absent the tobacco smoke, nicotine is relatively harmless and comparable to caffeine. The American Heart Association acknowledges that nicotine is "safe" in other smoke-free forms such as patches or gum.2

    Research has also shown that many of the of smokers who successfully quit using nicotine gum never actually "wean down their nicotine level so they can completely get rid of it." The success rate of NRTs (nicotine replacement therapy) has dropped to 7.2%, resulting in chronic use of the products.3 Furthermore, according to a 2004 report, over 36% of gum users continue to use the products as a smoking replacement indefinitely.4 So nicotine itself is not what is killing people. The ALA's insistence on complete nicotine abstinence is admirable yet unrealistic and their claims about the dangers of nicotine, as compared to smoking, are clearly misleading.

    The ALA email also acknowledged a fact already known to many e-cigarette insiders - that the majority of smokers who switched to electronic cigarettes had no intention of quitting smoking. So, why remove the only safer option available to those who would otherwise smoke the obviously deadlier tobacco cigarettes?

    The only explanation is that the American Lung Association assumes that every smoker and electronic cigarette user wants to quit smoking and uses the devices as an NRT. That is an erroneous and very dangerous assumption.

    In surveys of electronic cigarette owners conducted by CASAA (Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association), respondents overwhelmingly stated that they did not use electronic cigarettes to quit smoking and would go back to smoking if denied access to electronic cigarettes.

    An internet questionnaire of a self-selected sample of 783 daily users of electronic cigarettes asked, "Why did you start vaping?" ("Vaping" is a term for the vapor inhaled vs. smoke.) A staggering 92% chose to switch for reasons other than quitting smoking i.e. saving money or reducing the risks associated with smoking. Less than 8% stated they were using e-cigarettes to quit smoking.5

    So, the ALA wishes to remove the safer alternative used by several hundred thousand electronic cigarettes users and force them back to smoking tobacco cigarettes, in order to "protect" the less than 8% who would otherwise be using an NRT?

    Additionally, the ALA's belief that e-cigarette users will switch to traditional NRTs or quit altogether is disproved in yet another e-cigarette user questionnaire conducted by CASAA. This survey explored the habits and motivations of almost 1,000 electronic cigarette users. The poll indicates that, not only is the typical e-cigarette user a former smoker over the age of 26, but that they have overwhelmingly cut back or quit the use of tobacco cigarettes and have noticed improved health effects - indicating they provide the "improved lung health" the ALA is seeking to promote. Most importantly, the results indisputably contradict the assertion that electronic cigarette users will quit using tobacco should the devices be removed from the market. Over 80% of the respondents indicated they would most likely return to smoking tobacco cigarettes or use another smokeless tobacco alternative, such as snus. Less than 20% stated they would attempt to quit nicotine use altogether. 6

    While the nicotine abstinence approach may be the ideal, it simply does not reflect the reality that 80% of smokers do not even wish to quit in the immediate future. Wouldn't it make sense to encourage those smokers to switch to a less harmful alternative in the meantime?

    In their single-minded drive to ban e-cigarettes, focusing solely on the small minority of electronic cigarette users who use the devices to quit nicotine, the ALA will do more harm than good to the majority of e-cigarette users who will inevitably return to smoking the more toxic tobacco cigarettes.

    The American Lung Association needs to re-read their own mission statement and determine if their opposition to electronic cigarettes would be saving lives - their stated goal - or putting those lives right back into harm's way.
    Fucking scumbags.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  2. #2
    Damn, does that thing actually work?
    Must check this out.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowheart View Post
    Damn, does that thing actually work?
    Must check this out.
    Be careful... and hit up one of the big e-cigarette/vaping forums if you decide to go that route. It's not like you're just out a few bucks on a pack of smokes if you end with one you don't like, so it's best to do your homework before dropping a bunch of cash on one.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  4. #4
    I thought I saw a guy smoking one of those in the elevator in my building. It produces no exhaled smoke, right? Very weird thing...but the whole issue of inability to ever quit nicotine is just one more example of why cigarettes are fracking gross.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I thought I saw a guy smoking one of those in the elevator in my building. It produces no exhaled smoke, right?
    Depends. Some (most?) of them produce an exhaled "smoke" that's virtually identical to the stuff they use in those fog machines at clubs and concerts and the like. Non-toxic, no odor, but provides a visible effect to enhance your cool factor. But that also has a lot to do with how you "vape" - more experienced users tend to drip a couple drops of the nicotine solution into their vaporizer (instead of using a "cartridge" filled with the nicotine juice), which doesn't leave enough liquid to vaporized into anything visible.

    Either way, it's a method of smoking nicotine without fucking up your lungs or getting cancer, and this group of alleged doctors wants it banned. Scumbag pieces of shit.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  6. #6
    Nice editorial. What did the ALA actually say that got the PR types to trawl for columnists to write their reply?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  7. #7
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    Beats me. They've been calling for the things for over a year now... (from their own website) my best guess is that it has something to do with the vote in the Illinois legislature to ban them. The bitch lobbyist the ALA has working for them in Illinois has been saying all kinds of shit in the lead up to that vote. (It's been delayed until next week.)

    I guess no one told the e-cig industry that if you want to sell your product in that state, you have to provide a kickback to Illinois politicians first.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  8. #8
    I'm not seeing anything the least bit untoward, so far. Just a joint statement alleging false promotion, and an editorial which I notice ist falsely implying at least neutrality toward e-cigs from the AHA *an implication which is directly refuted by them joining that announcement you just linked to*
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I'm not seeing anything the least bit untoward, so far.
    Really?

    You don't see it as "untoward" to force people to go back to a much unhealthier product which causes all manner of cancers, heart disease and circulatory problems for their nicotine fix... as a medical organization allegedly interested in people's health? Seems to violate that Hippopotamus oath of theirs, at the very least.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Really?

    You don't see it as "untoward" to force people to go back to a much unhealthier product which causes all manner of cancers, heart disease and circulatory problems for their nicotine fix... as a medical organization allegedly interested in people's health? Seems to violate that Hippopotamus oath of theirs, at the very least.
    If they have concerns regarding the health effects, then no, I don't see a problem. "Healthier" is not the same as "healthy," and the latter is their designated area of interest.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  11. #11
    Not important as there's still an age restriction. lol

  12. #12
    Fuzzy's right. The role of health advocates is not to compromise, but to advocate the healthiest path. The ALA would be grossly incompetent to advocate for chronic usage of a harmful, addictive drug, even if it's ingestion method is less harmful than the conventional method. MDs just cannot do that.

    That said, the ALA is probably going too far in its opposition. Anything that decreases actual smoking is an improvement. But this is hardly a subject justifying a histrionic thread title. I think the ALA is miscalibrated, and is not grossly negligent.

    But that doesn't make good Fox news-like headlines, does it?

  13. #13
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    Thing is, there's no evidence whatsoever that vaping has any adverse health effects whatsoever. (Unless, of course, you end up with anti-freeze in your nicotine juice, on account of having to import everything from China, because assholes like the ALA have effectively killed the domestic market.)

    It's the toxic gases you get from inhaling burning plant matter that cause the health problems associated with smoking (and, some of the additives like ammonia and bleach), not the drug itself.

    So, yeah, this *is* grossly negligent, at least until such a time as they can come up with anything to support their completely unfounded assertion that vaping nicotine is unhealthy, per se.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  14. #14
    In surveys of electronic cigarette owners conducted by CASAA (Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association), respondents overwhelmingly stated that they did not use electronic cigarettes to quit smoking and would go back to smoking if denied access to electronic cigarettes.
    Whoops. CASAA is a faux health advocacy non-profit, organized and funded by the "alternatives" industry to promote their products. Ouch. Take their "survey results" with a serious grain of salt, as you would for a survey conducted by, say, a tobacco industry shill.

    Oh, and nicotine is a harmful drug. Based on, you know, good science and medicine, a physician should not strongly advocate its use (sub rosa is another matter, as in a GP saying "look, I'd much rather you use these electronic things rather than smoke. Otherwise we're going to be carving out your lungs or have you on O2 for COPD in ten years.") It is especially dangerous if people are idiotic enough to get concentrated nicotine and drip it in there. The potential for abuse and death is as dangerous as for cocaine.

    Mind you, I'm not opposed to the drug per se. But no medical association has any business advocating such a device. THAT would be grossly negligent.

    Like I said, it's a strength of message calibration issue, not your hysterical witch hunt. But don't let that stop you from talking out of your ass. Facts never have.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    Whoops. CASAA is a faux health advocacy non-profit, organized and funded by the "alternatives" industry to promote their products. Ouch. Take their "survey results" with a serious grain of salt, as you would for a survey conducted by, say, a tobacco industry shill.
    You can always go over to the biggest e-cig forum in the world and ask. Of course, the mere fact that people are shelling out hundreds of dollars on electronic nicotine delivery devices should be evidence enough that they're not looking to quit, but rather are looking for a "better" way to get nicotine into their bloodstream.

    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    Oh, and nicotine is a harmful drug. Based on, you know, good science and medicine, a physician should not strongly advocate its use (sub rosa is another matter, as in a GP saying "look, I'd much rather you use these electronic things rather than smoke. Otherwise we're going to be carving out your lungs or have you on O2 for COPD in ten years.") It is especially dangerous if people are idiotic enough to get concentrated nicotine and drip it in there. The potential for abuse and death is as dangerous as for cocaine.
    Yeah, I'm not talking about the risks of ODing. I'm talking about the health effects of extended recreational
    use. And as far as I can tell, there's never been a study done on the effects of nicotine itself to separate it from its traditionally toxic delivery methods (chew and cigarettes).

    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    Like I said, it's a strength of message calibration issue, not your hysterical witch hunt. But don't let that stop you from talking out of your ass. Facts never have.
    It's no surprise you don't like electronic cigs... they'd never survive the climate in a Nicaraguan jungle, let alone the stresses of your contra lifestyle.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    You can always go over to the biggest e-cig forum in the world and ask. Of course, the mere fact that people are shelling out hundreds of dollars on electronic nicotine delivery devices should be evidence enough that they're not looking to quit, but rather are looking for a "better" way to get nicotine into their bloodstream.
    Just out of curiosity, do these wind up being cheaper than ciggys in the long run? What do the whatever you fill them with cost in comparison to a pack of cigs?
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    Just out of curiosity, do these wind up being cheaper than ciggys in the long run? What do the whatever you fill them with cost in comparison to a pack of cigs?
    Much cheaper. As to what they cost... it varies widely, but as a pack-a-day-smoker, I can get enough juice to last me a month for 30 bucks or so. You could probably pay double that without much effort, especially if you're into the whole flavor buffet and order a bunch of smaller capacity juice bottles in 49 different flavors. But even so, it's hard to spend more than it would cost you for that many cigarettes. (Contrast with almost 6 bucks a pack for traditional smokes in Ohio.) And you do have to replace the atomizer component fairly regularly... about every couple of weeks... because they wear out, but those are pretty cheap too... usually around 10 bucks a pop, but it depends on your model of e-cig and all that. Cheap Chinese manufacturing.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    It's no surprise you don't like electronic cigs... they'd never survive the climate in a Nicaraguan jungle, let alone the stresses of your contra lifestyle.
    Jesus fucking Christ dude
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Jesus fucking Christ dude
    What? If he's gonna get on his fucking soapbox about honesty and "facts," I think the facts about his past become relevant.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    What? If he's gonna get on his fucking soapbox about honesty and "facts," I think the facts about his past become relevant.
    Not when it gets repeated so very often.

    Just assume that everyone here will mentally add that to every reply you ever make to Tear. Please?
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  21. #21
    Every man a contra

    Every woman a whore

    Every gov'ment a Big Brother
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  22. #22
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  23. #23
    until there is evidence from high-quality large-scale long-term studies investigating the effects of e-cigs anyone who advocates evidence-based medicine should approach e-cigs with caution. forums are not studies
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  24. #24
    Didn't say I had a problem with electronic cigs. But physicians, especially those associated with a health advocacy group, cannot advocate them, because they are a delivery system for a drug.

    It is what it is. Docs can't advocate drug use. Is their message poorly calibrated? Yes, I think so. Are they negligent? No. Being negligent would be taking the stance that Cain apparently wants them to take. You know, the one supported by "studies" from an industry shill.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    Didn't say I had a problem with electronic cigs. But physicians, especially those associated with a health advocacy group, cannot advocate them, because they are a delivery system for a drug.
    Right, because you have to either advocate something or call for it to be banned. Clearly, keeping your mouth shut is a form of advocacy.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  26. #26
    Cain hates rulez. But he's okay demanding professional licensure be revoked, when they do something he doesn't like.

  27. #27
    That's because he's a maverick. An, err, American original. He's his own man, and nobody will tell him what to do (except the cigarettes, who order him around like a cheap ho. Oh, and the likker. And chasing after skanky bar tail.).

  28. #28
    if keeping quiet about the potential dangers and about our lack of knowledge of the product will lead to lots of people using the damned things due to reading dumb shit from dumbasses on dumbass forums then yes keeping quiet is equivalent to advocating the damned things.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    if keeping quiet about the potential dangers and about our lack of knowledge of the product will lead to lots of people using the damned things due to reading dumb shit from dumbasses on dumbass forums then yes keeping quiet is equivalent to advocating the damned things.
    Got it.

    And since I haven't heard anything from the ALA about banning crack pipes, clearly, they advocate smoking crack.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Got it.

    And since I haven't heard anything from the ALA about banning crack pipes, clearly, they advocate smoking crack.
    I don't know if I should post a facepalm or a thumbs up.

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