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Thread: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

  1. #1

    Default Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    See below article about people with easy passwords being so damn hackable. Despite this, I know of companies running popular Web services (EG Facebook) that are constantly flooded with people e-mailing saying that their accounts with simple passwords were hacked. These people (whose identities can't be verified) demand their accounts be restored.

    Ideally these Web services could be built with more safeguards to allow for account restoration in case of hacking (EG security questions, etc.) But these companies (like Facebook) inevitably get criticized for not having much of a customer support system. Even though said system would erase the margins on these mainly self-service products.

    Do these people nonetheless deserve some level of support?

    Hope the question is clear...

    January 21, 2010
    If Your Password Is 123456, Just Make It HackMe
    By ASHLEE VANCE

    Back at the dawn of the Web, the most popular account password was “12345.”

    Today, it’s one digit longer but hardly safer: “123456.”

    Despite all the reports of Internet security breaches over the years, including the recent attacks on Google’s e-mail service, many people have reacted to the break-ins with a shrug.

    According to a new analysis, one out of five Web users still decides to leave the digital equivalent of a key under the doormat: they choose a simple, easily guessed password like “abc123,” “iloveyou” or even “password” to protect their data.

    “I guess it’s just a genetic flaw in humans,” said Amichai Shulman, the chief technology officer at Imperva, which makes software for blocking hackers. “We’ve been following the same patterns since the 1990s.”

    Mr. Shulman and his company examined a list of 32 million passwords that an unknown hacker stole last month from RockYou, a company that makes software for users of social networking sites like Facebook and MySpace. The list was briefly posted on the Web, and hackers and security researchers downloaded it. (RockYou, which had already been widely criticized for lax privacy practices, has advised its customers to change their passwords, as the hacker gained information about their e-mail accounts as well.)

    The trove provided an unusually detailed window into computer users’ password habits. Typically, only government agencies like the F.B.I. or the National Security Agency have had access to such a large password list.

    “This was the mother lode,” said Matt Weir, a doctoral candidate in the e-crimes and investigation technology lab at Florida State University, where researchers are also examining the data.

    Imperva found that nearly 1 percent of the 32 million people it studied had used “123456” as a password. The second-most-popular password was “12345.” Others in the top 20 included “qwerty,” “abc123” and “princess.”

    More disturbing, said Mr. Shulman, was that about 20 percent of people on the RockYou list picked from the same, relatively small pool of 5,000 passwords.

    That suggests that hackers could easily break into many accounts just by trying the most common passwords. Because of the prevalence of fast computers and speedy networks, hackers can fire off thousands of password guesses per minute.

    “We tend to think of password guessing as a very time-consuming attack in which I take each account and try a large number of name-and-password combinations,” Mr. Shulman said. “The reality is that you can be very effective by choosing a small number of common passwords.”

    Some Web sites try to thwart the attackers by freezing an account for a certain period of time if too many incorrect passwords are typed. But experts say that the hackers simply learn to trick the system, by making guesses at an acceptable rate, for instance.

    To improve security, some Web sites are forcing users to mix letters, numbers and even symbols in their passwords. Others, like Twitter, prevent people from picking common passwords.

    Still, researchers say, social networking and entertainment Web sites often try to make life simpler for their users and are reluctant to put too many controls in place.

    Even commercial sites like eBay must weigh the consequences of freezing accounts, since a hacker could, say, try to win an auction by freezing the accounts of other bidders.

    Overusing simple passwords is not a new phenomenon. A similar survey examined computer passwords used in the mid-1990s and found that the most popular ones at that time were “12345,” “abc123” and “password.”

    Why do so many people continue to choose easy-to-guess passwords, despite so many warnings about the risks?

    Security experts suggest that we are simply overwhelmed by the sheer number of things we have to remember in this digital age.

    “Nowadays, we have to keep probably 10 times as many passwords in our head as we did 10 years ago,” said Jeff Moss, who founded a popular hacking conference and is now on the Homeland Security Advisory Council. “Voice mail passwords, A.T.M. PINs and Internet passwords — it’s so hard to keep track of.”

    In the idealized world championed by security specialists, people would have different passwords for every Web site they visit and store them in their head or, if absolutely necessary, on a piece of paper.

    But bowing to the reality of our overcrowded brains, the experts suggest that everyone choose at least two different passwords — a complex one for Web sites were security is vital, such as banks and e-mail, and a simpler one for places where the stakes are lower, such as social networking and entertainment sites.

    Mr. Moss relies on passwords at least 12 characters long, figuring that those make him a more difficult target than the millions of people who choose five- and six-character passwords.

    “It’s like the joke where the hikers run into a bear in the forest, and the hiker that survives is the one who outruns his buddy,” Mr. Moss said. “You just want to run that bit faster.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/21/techn ... sword.html


  2. #2

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    I'd have to say no.

    I mean, if someone chooses 12345 for the password for their bank account, obviously they ought not to have to pay for all the fraudulent charges made, but there is a place for personal accountability.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  3. #3
    Spin it let's begin it. Angel_Mapper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    If there's one password that you absolutely must make extremely complicated, it's your email. If someone gets into your email account they can use password recovery to get into most of your other accounts. It's especially dangerous for people who don't delete any emails, since they can just look through them to see where you have accounts.

    I'd say for anything that involved money the site absolutely should force secure passwords to be used. A lot of sites are starting to do this with a meter beside the password box that goes from red to yellow to green to indicate whether your password is secure enough, and won't let you continue until it's green.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Seems that you make a good point -- maybe the responsibility should end at stopping stupid passwords.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    why cant people just write their passwords in a text editor or a personal notebook?
    it makes it easier than using the same password for some websites

  6. #6

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorBullet
    why cant people just write their passwords in a text editor or a personal notebook?
    it makes it easier than using the same password for some websites
    Not smart enough.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged
    I mean, if someone chooses 12345 for the password for their bank account, obviously they ought not to have to pay for all the fraudulent charges made, but there is a place for personal accountability.
    You mean the PIN for the bank card, or for internet banking? I suppose for internet banking there should be a more secure system than a single password.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Hm. It is tempting to use the same, or similar, passwords though, isnt it?

    Ones you dont use too frequently are an absolute nightmare. Like when i buy anything on my VISA now, it asks for additional verification, which i had to change about 4 times, because it was months between uses and i kept forgetting.

    Now i use a system to help me remember that probably can be quite easily hacked :s

    It usually comes out at 9 characters, a couple of numbers and a symbol.
    "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    But isn't part of the onus on the companies allowing stupid passwords? From my experience I know it's possible to not allow stupid passwords on signon. So if this is a concern why don't companies simply force people to either pick a harder password on signing on or switching to a more difficult one if they already are members with too simple passwords.

    AM is right by the way, email passwords are the most important ones.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    My work computer systems have a 'Password strength' bar, which is increased by the length, the number of numbers and number of symbols. The bar has to be over 80% for it to be valid. My password for one of the systems is XXXXXXXXXXX#1 (X = letter) and that's 100% strength. So it's hardly difficult to think up a password that is difficult to figure out, it's just people being lazy.

    The places supplying these websites are also being lazy in my opinion. Surely adding something like this is way quicker and easier than having to deal with all these password reset/Oh noes I've been hacked emails. People should learn to be more careful with passwords, and Facebook etc should be helping that by not allowing certain common passwords.

    Another thing that worries me is the iPhones. You can access mail, facebook, loads of stuff, and the password is already saved, which is cool when you want easy access, but if you lose your phone, you're fucked. Somebody else basically has everything of yours by the balls.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthJoker
    You mean the PIN for the bank card, or for internet banking? I suppose for internet banking there should be a more secure system than a single password.
    PIN plus bankcard is now required for access to internet banking for many banks here in the UK.

    You can't access your internet banking without using your card with one of these devices, typing in your PIN, the device gives you a code which you then enter into the bank's webpage to login to your account.



    Unwieldy and not ideal because it means you can't access your bank account online if you move around a lot without carrying the little device too. But it's more secure. Supposedly.

    The device is used for all transactions you carry out online too, not just to login to your account.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    I'm going to fool everone with my new super password!!!

    No longer will I use 123456...

    My new Password is

    OneTwoThree

    No one will ever guess that!!! And I will rule the world!!!
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel_Mapper
    I'd say for anything that involved money the site absolutely should force secure passwords to be used. A lot of sites are starting to do this with a meter beside the password box that goes from red to yellow to green to indicate whether your password is secure enough, and won't let you continue until it's green.
    See I have an alternate problem. I can, eventually, memorize passwords with both letters, numbers, and symbols in excess of 16 characters. Since I'm nobody important it is unlikely that they will be brute forced, or guessed anytime soon, as someone trying to get easy access to money will just skip over me and go for an easier target. However, I've frequently run into websites that do involve money, that restrict passwords to a maximum of 8 alphanumeric characters. This is maddening because they are quite capable of handling more, and symbols. These same institutions are also ones that are likely to have the silly security questions.
    . . .

  14. #14
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2

    PIN plus bankcard is now required for access to internet banking for many banks here in the UK.

    You can't access your internet banking without using your card with one of these devices, typing in your PIN, the device gives you a code which you then enter into the bank's webpage to login to your account.

    Unwieldy and not ideal because it means you can't access your bank account online if you move around a lot without carrying the little device too. But it's more secure. Supposedly.

    The device is used for all transactions you carry out online too, not just to login to your account.
    One of my banks has a similar device, the other uses login name + password + SMS authorization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir
    But isn't part of the onus on the companies allowing stupid passwords? From my experience I know it's possible to not allow stupid passwords on signon. So if this is a concern why don't companies simply force people to either pick a harder password on signing on or switching to a more difficult one if they already are members with too simple passwords.

    AM is right by the way, email passwords are the most important ones.
    Almost all places where I use passwords, they have to be at least 8 characters and contain at least one number. I basically have two passwords with capital letters and numbers that I use for more secure places, and two letter-only ones for less important places. I have to remember only 4 passwords, but I think it is pretty safe.
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  15. #15
    Spin it let's begin it. Angel_Mapper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions
    However, I've frequently run into websites that do involve money, that restrict passwords to a maximum of 8 alphanumeric characters. This is maddening because they are quite capable of handling more, and symbols. These same institutions are also ones that are likely to have the silly security questions.
    I treat security questions like another password. I don't put the real answer in there but another combination of letters, numbers and symbols. I write them down on a piece of paper without writing down what site they're for and only a vague hint as to which question they answer. Then I put the piece of paper in a safe place in case I ever need to use it.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel_Mapper
    I treat security questions like another password. I don't put the real answer in there but another combination of letters, numbers and symbols. I write them down on a piece of paper without writing down what site they're for and only a vague hint as to which question they answer. Then I put the piece of paper in a safe place in case I ever need to use it.
    I have not yet started doing this, as I haven't recently needed to register for sites that use them, however, yet another problem I've run into is that some sites do not let you change the answers to your questions. This means that out of all the sites I've registered for years ago with security question, only a few let me change the answers.
    . . .

  17. #17

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Bell curve! (for you, Ness.)
    A lot of people are just stupid. Simple as that.

    I use a hybrid of mnemonics from 20 year old episodes in my life, spiced with a couple of numerals and weird characters.

    My work email, networks, etc require a PW change every 3 months, and it remembers/blocks old ones. But it's a medical school so security is key for HIPAA.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Lor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Quote Originally Posted by '
    ['ear]My work email, networks, etc require a PW change every 3 months, and it remembers/blocks old ones.
    That is what my work network is like, and how i believe it should be.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lor

    That is what my work network is like, and how i believe it should be.
    I'm not sure about this....

  20. #20

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
    See below article about people with easy passwords being so damn hackable. Despite this, I know of companies running popular Web services (EG Facebook) that are constantly flooded with people e-mailing saying that their accounts with simple passwords were hacked. These people (whose identities can't be verified) demand their accounts be restored.
    Cost of doing business, perhaps, for a company that courts every moron who can turn on a PC and type http://www.facebook.com...?

    Ideally these Web services could be built with more safeguards to allow for account restoration in case of hacking (EG security questions, etc.) But these companies (like Facebook) inevitably get criticized for not having much of a customer support system. Even though said system would erase the margins on these mainly self-service products.

    Do these people nonetheless deserve some level of support?
    They could institute certain simple safe guards like minimun string lenght, alpha & numeric, and a symbal. They could even bounce it off a list of common names and words and refuse those as passwords.... Managing moron users isn't rocket science, it's computer science.
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  21. #21

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Quote Originally Posted by '
    ['ear]But it's a medical school so security is key for HIPAA.
    I find this amusing because when I worked medical records for a doctor's office any lawyer, insurance agency, HMO, or whomever that was trying to get records by going around HIPAA they would just use social engineering or other forms of personal manipulation...not trying to hack into a database somewhere.
    . . .

  22. #22

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorBullet
    why cant people just write their passwords in a text editor or a personal notebook?
    it makes it easier than using the same password for some websites
    Thank you for making me feel smart.

    I have one password I use for a plethora of things, so it's simple, in addition to a generic numbers one, a 30 letter password for medium level stuff, and a ridiculous combination of letters numbers and symbols for email that I can't for the life of me remember.

    I like what AM said about only companies dealing with money enforcing strong passwords. If you're an idiot with your security, you shouldn't expect special treatment.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Security questions are really silly. A very easy way to get into an account...

    Password restrictions in general are also dumb. I hate the "need at least 1 letter, 1 symbol, 1 number" because that alomst always reduces the complexity of the password, in many cases you can then reduce a password to less than 1/3 the possible combinations it should be for one of that length....

  24. #24
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do Companies Have an Obligation to Support Dumb Passwords?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cracky
    Security questions are really silly. A very easy way to get into an account...

    Password restrictions in general are also dumb. I hate the "need at least 1 letter, 1 symbol, 1 number" because that alomst always reduces the complexity of the password, in many cases you can then reduce a password to less than 1/3 the possible combinations it should be for one of that length....
    Uh, no. But nice try at non-logic.
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