US protests against police violence

[Hazir]

I don't know how to respond to this, other than to say your assumptions about me couldn't be further from the truth.

You know nothing about me or my upbringing. I grew up in Leicester. I'm sure one as educated as you will know that it is fantastically multicultural city; where the proportion of "BAME" people outweigh the proportion of British White people. At and during primary school, secondary school, college and university - I was always an ethic minority. Generally speaking everyone got on well together, but I witnessed racism, and was subject to racism myself regularly and it was particularly bad during secondary school. I was the only white person in my tutor group and was bullied for 5 years consistently. Beyond the consistent name calling (normally "whitey" "white boy" or "little white bitch") and general day to day bullying, my nose was broken, a tooth was knocked out, a finger was broken, possessions and money were regularly stolen from me, I was egged several times and teased whenever I applied myself at my work. The bullies also had a passion for poking me firmly in the adam's apple and taking great amusement in watching me struggle for breath. It was a deeply upsetting and difficult time and we were in no doubt that the colour of my skin was the primary influence on the attacks on me. Things got better during college and university, as one might expect as we grow up, but the issue didn't go away completely.

Thankfully the racism I was subjected to, and the racism I witnessed against Indian, Pakistani and black people was consistently unleashed by a small minority of people. By and large for most people colour was never an issue and I still think to this day Leicester is a great example of multiculturalism working brilliantly. Something I'm a big advocate of.

You've assumed that I had an advantage of race and class. I didn't. Due to the bullying I suffered for years you will never persuade me that my skin colour has been an advantage for me. I grew up in a council estate. I had one working parent and we were poor. Compared to many of the successful and wealthy Indian and Pakistani families in the the area that I mixed with, I was the lower class and often looked down upon.

I am not trying to belittle the struggle that some BAME people might have by telling you this. Neither am I downplaying your own circumstances. I'm doing so to explain why your assumptions about me are so wrong.

The question I asked is perfectly valid and legitimate and it's absolutely nothing like the analogy you tried to use. And my second point was about getting to the specifics about systematic and institutional racism. I'm willing to admit that I don't fully understand what these terms mean or what needs to change; but because of my history it's something of interest to me. This is something that we should be able to discuss as adults without making wild assumptions about people and attacking them.

It may come as surprise to you but not everyone on this forum has the answer to everything. Not everyone is fully educated on the subject. Not everyone has spent years researching the facts and evidence. Some people have doubts about things and not everyone is cocksure about what they believe. If there's no room for people like that on this forum then I'm happy to go and leave you superior intellects to it.

It is regrettable that you were bullied when you were younger.

However, even in your personal story the bigger reality is shining through; there was an end to it in the end. For minorities there is no such end, not when they are young and not when they are old. What is done to them also isn't done by small groups of 'ill-willed' individuals, but by society at large. For them there is a reservoir without end of people who think just that little bit less of them, no matter how hard they try. And try they must, because otherwise there's the ever ready stereotype waiting for them. We are vulnerable not for who we are, but for what we are. All it takes is being a little bit too insisting and regardless of anything we achieved in life, there's someone willing to put us down with the all too familiar abusive faggot or nigger.

And that makes your question offensive, because it can only be asked by someone who denies our live's reality.

[gogobongopop]

I'm not denying your reality. When you say things like "society at large" I simply want to know more. I should be able to ask that perfectly reasonable question without being accused of being racist or having some kind of hidden agenda to belittle you.

And again, you're assuming that I no longer experience racism, and once again you're wrong.

I obviously can't stop you from being offended by what I say. It's unfortunate that you do because it seems we're unable to take this discussion any further as you don't trust my motives.

[Hazir]

I'm not denying your reality. When you say things like "society at large" I simply want to know more. I should be able to ask that perfectly reasonable question without being accused of being racist or having some kind of hidden agenda to belittle you.

And again, you're assuming that I no longer experience racism, and once again you're wrong.

I obviously can't stop you from being offended by what I say. It's unfortunate that you do because it seems we're unable to take this discussion any further as you don't trust my motives.

Ok, enjoy your victim status. You are entirely comparable with people subjected to a system of exclusion and discrimination.

Don't be surprised though next time somebody tells you to check your privilege.

[Aimless]

It may not matter to you, but it matters to the protesters - especially those in the UK. I was listening to the Today programme this morning and a BLM organiser made clear that the protests are about institutional racism. Therefore it seems important to establish whether the spark that ignited the fury was racially motivated.

Whether or not there might have been a personal motive is less relevant to these events than the fact that a cop was comfortable with murdering a black man, in cold blood, on camera, in public, surrounded by other cops and by regular citizens. In a less racist society, or a less racist police force, that would probably not have been the case. It genuinely does not matter to the political situation whether this particular cop had a particular personal motive for targeting this particular black man; proving that reasonable doubt exists wrt the role racism may have played in his motive to kill Floyd, well, that's really only of interest to him and his attorney.

On a related note, I'm also struggling with the terms "systematic" and "institutional" racism. I've been listening to various commentators over the last week and, when asked, not one has been able to point to any specific examples of what I consider to be a fault of "the system" or our "institutions".

Well, if you were to think about it for a moment, what would you think might be some good examples of institutional/systemic racism?

[Lewkowski]

Well, if you were to think about it for a moment, what would you think might be some good examples of institutional/systemic racism?

Denying better qualified Asians admission to prestigious universities because they "have too many" of their "kind" already.

[Loki]

Yet more "bad apples".

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2020/0...ntability.html

[gogobongopop]

Ok, enjoy your victim status. You are entirely comparable with people subjected to a system of exclusion and discrimination.

Don't be surprised though next time somebody tells you to check your privilege.

"Enjoy your victim status? " What on Earth are you talking about? Are you suggesting I've revelled in the racial abuse I've received? What an abhorrent thing to say.

And "check my privilege"? Are you fucking kidding me? I grew up poor, suffered years of horrific bullying and had to work damn hard to be in the position I am in today. I'm 38 years old with terminal stage 4 bowel cancer and will be dead soon.

There's my "privilege".

[gogobongopop]

Well, if you were to think about it for a moment, what would you think might be some good examples of institutional/systemic racism?

This feels like a trap! I'm not sure how to answer this without being accused of being a privileged racist should I fail to mention something or by saying something inaccurate.

I suppose the most obvious example that I'm aware of in the UK is regarding "stop and search". My limited understanding is that black people are more likely to be stopped and searched by the police than white people. But I also know that the data associated with this is hugely complex and drawing conclusions can be hard. There's a much higher % of black people (compared against & of population) in UK prisons than other ethnicities. Whether that's because of racism, or whether it's because black people commit more crimes proportionally, or whether it's due to social-economic issues, I don't know.

There have been several high profile reports published in the last few years (in the UK) containing lots (and lots) of recommendations about how to tackle systematic racism. I haven't read these reports or seen the recommendations so I don't know their nature or how feasible they are to implement.

To be clear, I'm not denying that racism exists in the UK. I guess I'm interested in whether that racism is baked into our laws, policies and "systems", or whether it's more a case of individual scum being individually racist. Or whether it's a combination of both. If we find that it is baked into our governance I'm interested in what people think needs to change.

[Loki]

Yet more of Lewk's heroes:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9567096.html

[Ominous Gamer]

Police shoot at the public filming from behind a courthouse window

[Aimless]

Twitter Link

Twitter Link

Twitter Link

[Steely Glint]

Protest works.

[Hazir]

"Enjoy your victim status? " What on Earth are you talking about? Are you suggesting I've revelled in the racial abuse I've received? What an abhorrent thing to say.

And "check my privilege"? Are you fucking kidding me? I grew up poor, suffered years of horrific bullying and had to work damn hard to be in the position I am in today. I'm 38 years old with terminal stage 4 bowel cancer and will be dead soon.

There's my "privilege".

You have lousy luck. But how is any of this relevant to what we're discussing?

Should I put on velvet gloves in a discussion on systemic racism because of whom I am addressing? Really, sorry for you Gogo, but unlike people in your condition "we" do get told to our faces that we're disgusting, don't belong or just plain should die. First reflex if we run into trouble is if we couldn't have avoided it by not being uppity. Lewk's standard reaction to dead niggers is that they had it coming for whatever arcane reason is at hand. For a good part of my life I have heard religious leaders blaming the HIV epidemic on the sin that is my existence. Fags with "the gay cancer" first of all deserved it and second brought it upon themselves for fucking each other up the ass.

When was the last time someone implied that you were to blame for being ill?

[Hazir]

Protest works.

We can only hope.

[Hazir]

Police shoot at the public filming from behind a courthouse window

I'm not sure they actually shot at him. I had an incident like this and it looks more like an accident than intentional. I doubt even double glazing would stop a bullet if it got hit in an angle less than 90 degrees.

[Ominous Gamer]

Most of what was being fired was pepper and rubber bullets. Combined with it being a courthouse construction and I wouldn't expect the window to shatter. It's just the police being dicks and trying to intimidate the public.

[gogobongopop]

You have lousy luck. But how is any of this relevant to what we're discussing?

Should I put on velvet gloves in a discussion on systemic racism because of whom I am addressing? Really, sorry for you Gogo, but unlike people in your condition "we" do get told to our faces that we're disgusting, don't belong or just plain should die. First reflex if we run into trouble is if we couldn't have avoided it by not being uppity. Lewk's standard reaction to dead niggers is that they had it coming for whatever arcane reason is at hand. For a good part of my life I have heard religious leaders blaming the HIV epidemic on the sin that is my existence. Fags with "the gay cancer" first of all deserved it and second brought it upon themselves for fucking each other up the ass.

When was the last time someone implied that you were to blame for being ill?

What a bizarre response. It's relevant because I'm responding and defending myself to more insulting attacks from you.

[Hazir]

What a bizarre response. It's relevant because I'm responding and defending myself to more insulting attacks from you.

You seem very slow of understanding; your questions are offensive and you are just piling it up by equating your personal story with the systemic discrimination of minorities. It doesn't even come close buddy.

And you may think my answer is bizarre, but in my reality the question what you did wrong to have cancer would be run of the mill.

[gogobongopop]

I don't think my question was offensive.

You've done nothing but make incorrect assumptions about me based solely on the colour of my skin. If anyone is offensive and racist here it's you.

You used trendy nebulous buzzwords and thlen got all pissy about me interpreting then in a slightly different way to you. Everything I've said is relevant to the assumptions and claims you've made about me.

[RandBlade]

You're question is not offensive Gogo. Its also perhaps moot, but that's another subject.

It certainly seems that in the USA the Police are violent out of control thugs. Eric Cartman with a gun screaming "respect my authoritah" while shooting at and attacking anyone who gets in there way. A lot of the time, far too often, they're black men. But equally they're prepared to violently assault black or white women, or 75 year old white men.

Tackling the violence against one group should also tackle it against the others. Doing nothing isn't acceptable.

[gogobongopop]

You're question is not offensive Gogo.

Its also perhaps moot, but that's another subject.

Yes, I agree that an argument can be made for this. You and Aimless have given me food for thought.

[RandBlade]

Urgh "Your" not "You're", bloody phone typing.

When this BLM started I was a lot more defensive for US Police in general seeing the incidents as symptomatic of violence in America as a whole. I don't know if you've noticed Aimless, but not making this argument anymore. Its clear something is very wrong in America with their Police specifically - more than just American violence in general. The Police are too willing to resort to violence.

[Timbuk2]

You're question is not offensive Gogo.

Agreed, it was not offensive.

[Aimless]

Twitter Link

[RandBlade]

Raab is an idiot. He should be sacked for that.

[Hazir]

How nice that you guys agree it wasn't offensive. That's really relevant.

[Ominous Gamer]

I wouldn't consider it offensive, but it's not harmless either. It's more along the lines of a confirmation for why.

[Timbuk2]

Twitter Link

That's ... an utterly bizarre thing for a Foreign Secretary to say. How to paint yourself as completely out of touch.

[gogobongopop]

I wouldn't consider it offensive, but it's not harmless either. It's more along the lines of a confirmation for why.

Yes, I'd agree. I was aware that the question might be provocative, which is why I tried to caveat it. Nevertheless I thought it was important and interesting; but perhaps more in relation to the UK protests than the US.

[gogobongopop]

That's ... an utterly bizarre thing for a Foreign Secretary to say. How to paint yourself as completely out of touch.

Well....it's not that bizarre when you consider our previous FS was Boris Johnson. And it's not that bizarre when you consider that it's Dominic "We are, and I hadn't quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and if you look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing" Raab saying it.