Rising tensions in East Jerusalem

[wiggin]

RB, I think terms like 'scum' and 'trash' are not helpful or appropriate here. I have many very serious differences with Congresswoman Tlaib; it is unlikely I would have voted for her, and I do think that her language and the memes she traffics in are deeply problematic. But one of the worst things that has happened in our politics is that instead of disagreeing on the substance of an issue - sometimes quite vehemently - we choose to make personal judgments about the worth of the 'other side', call names, and question their motives.

I have no doubt that Ms. Tlaib's main motivation in this debate is to provide for a safe, prosperous, and free future for Palestinians. This is a laudable goal, and her advocacy on its behalf (especially in the context of very substantial backlash) should be admired. I have concerns about her proposed solutions, her commitment to a safe, prosperous, and free future for Jewish Israelis, and her language to describe Jews and Israelis. But I do not doubt her motivations, and I do not countenance calling her names.

[Loki]

Completely agreed. She uses clumsy language and has policies I disagree with, but this isn't the time for gotcha politics. People occasionally say stupid things. It's unfortunate, but I'd prefer to focus on those who consistently say and do stupid things.

[Hazir]

How do you tell the difference between a Palestinian Palestinian and an Israeli Palestinian?

The Israeli citizen of Arab origin has significantly more rights. Like the right to vote in Israeli elections and an Israeli passport that's recognized in most of the world.

[RandBlade]

Completely agreed. She uses clumsy language and has policies I disagree with, but this isn't the time for gotcha politics. People occasionally say stupid things. It's unfortunate, but I'd prefer to focus on those who consistently say and do stupid things.

Would you be so forgiving for someone clumsily using white supremacist terminology advocating genocide?

Has she apologised for doing so?

[Hazir]

You seem to think that things merely because they have a passing similarity actually become the same. In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict I would say that an ill chosen term is the lesser problem.

[Aimless]

You seem to think that things merely because they have a passing similarity actually become the same. In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict I would say that an ill chosen term is the lesser problem.

Don't know how many Palestinian Americans understand the phrase the way their political opponents do, but, given that most Palestinians who use the phrase don't support ethnic cleansing (eg. expulsion of all Jews between the river and the sea), I suspect most don't understand it as a call for ethnic cleansing. Even among Hamas supporters, fewer than 1 in 3 say they favour expulsion of the other side—similar to the support for that position among especially religious Jews in Israel, or right-wing Israeli "moderates".

[Aimless]

Military attack on refugee camp leaves at least 10 dead, only survivor from the precise location of the explosion apparently a 5-month-old baby. Being drowned out by the more spectacular attack on/demolition of the building housing Al Jazeera's & AP's offices—and a bunch of tenants. People forget, when talking about "surgical precision", that you generally have to be very clear with surgeons.

[Aimless]

AP statement re. attack:



Unlikely that this building was particularly crucial to Hamas's military operations at the time. The phrasing of that last sentence was very deliberate. Given the NYT's (perhaps unjustified) view that int'l news orgs had been used by IDF to trick Hamas, and journos' response to this attack, I think it's fair to say the relationship between Israel and the media is rapidly getting much more antagonistic.

[Dreadnaught]

I do wish there was more ideological diversity on a number of issues (including Israel policy) in the US government, but Tlaib's thinking is not quite the kind of diversity I believe we need.

[Loki]

I do wish there was more ideological diversity on a number of issues (including Israel policy) in the US government, but Tlaib's thinking is not quite the kind of diversity I believe we need.

It's good to have someone in Congress represent the activist wing. Otherwise, the activist wing resorts to more extreme actions.

[Steely Glint]

It's hard to envisage what military purpose blowing up the AP building could possibly have served that wouldn't have been completely nullified by the fact 1 hour warning was given.

[Aimless]

It's hard to envisage what military purpose blowing up the AP building could possibly have served that wouldn't have been completely nullified by the fact 1 hour warning was given.

Give it a rest you conspiracy theorists. Israeli intelligence had been monitoring a bearded character on the roof of the building, who was seen, on several occasions over the past couple of days, transmitting coded signals using a small mouth-held smoke generator.

[Aimless]

Damn. The videos of police assaulting women in Sheikh Jarrah are gonna tempt a lot of centrist dudes to say something clever about "optics".

[Steely Glint]

Netanyahu tells Biden that Israel 'seeks to avoid harming civilians'
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has spoken on the phone with US President Joe Biden, telling him that Israel "is doing everything to avoid harming innocent civilians".

I know a foolproof way to not harm civilians.

[RandBlade]

I know a foolproof way to not harm civilians.

During a war? While thousands of bombs are being lobbed at your country?

[Aimless]

I know a foolproof way to not harm civilians.

Only a fool would let Gazans have safe lives and decent healthcare. The blockade must never be lifted.

[RandBlade]

Maybe have a word with the democratically elected government of Gaza as to why they don't stop violence and concentrate on healthcare?

Oh that's why, they abolished elections nearly two decades ago, Hamas is trying to destroy Israel whom it doesn't recognise has a right to exist.

All OK to racist antisemites though. Nothing wrong with Hamas refusing Israel's right to exist or bombing Israel.

[Aimless]

Twitter Link

Trapped in the rubble next to his dead mother, but somehow alive. What a life.

[Loki]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Hamas's mistreatment of its people doesn't justify Israeli violence against them. I doubt the Israeli government expressly ordered some of the worst excesses (except for bombing media targets), but I also doubt anyone will get punished for them.

[Steely Glint]

If you're busy doing everything you can to make someone's life intolerable, constantly provoke them, break their stuff, steal shit, etc you don't get to act like the injured party when they've suddenly had enough and lash out, you don't get to claim 'self-defense' when you put them in hospital in response and when you look round the room at everyone and say you 'had to do it because how violent they are' we can all fucking see you.

[Aimless]

If you're busy doing everything you can to make someone's life intolerable, constantly provoke them, break their stuff, steal shit, etc you don't get to act like the injured party when they've suddenly had enough and lash out, you don't get to claim 'self-defense' when you put them in hospital in response and when you look round the room at everyone and say you 'had to do it because how violent they are' we can all fucking see you.

IDF isn't really putting any effort into the "self defense" messaging—at least, not in int'l comms. They know they've all but lost the global PR war. They trotted out some wack-ass statement about int'l law to give allies cover after the attack on Jala Tower, but people tend to laugh when the IDF talks about int'l law, so it's all quite insincere and borderline clownish. It's the fact that they don't even care enough to bullshit the outside world properly that's really concerning. Right now, this is more about domestic partisan politics than anything else.

[Lewkowski]

RB, I think terms like 'scum' and 'trash' are not helpful or appropriate here. I have many very serious differences with Congresswoman Tlaib; it is unlikely I would have voted for her, and I do think that her language and the memes she traffics in are deeply problematic. But one of the worst things that has happened in our politics is that instead of disagreeing on the substance of an issue - sometimes quite vehemently - we choose to make personal judgments about the worth of the 'other side', call names, and question their motives.

I have no doubt that Ms. Tlaib's main motivation in this debate is to provide for a safe, prosperous, and free future for Palestinians. This is a laudable goal, and her advocacy on its behalf (especially in the context of very substantial backlash) should be admired. I have concerns about her proposed solutions, her commitment to a safe, prosperous, and free future for Jewish Israelis, and her language to describe Jews and Israelis. But I do not doubt her motivations, and I do not countenance calling her names.

And yet you are oddly silent when similar charges are laid at Republican's feet. Either its all fair game in a political brawl or it isn't. You countenance personal attacks on say Trump's racial bias and motivation but when it comes to one of the most anti-Jewish congressional critters suddenly that's a bridge too far? I smell hypocrisy.

[Lewkowski]

It's good to have someone in Congress represent the activist wing. Otherwise, the activist wing resorts to more extreme actions.

Feel the same way for the right wing loonies? Or do you just give a pass to racist left wing loonies?

[Loki]

Feel the same way for the right wing loonies? Or do you just give a pass to racist left wing loonies?

Absolutely. It would be problematic to have 0 Trumpists in Congress given the amount of support Trump enjoys. Of course the problem is there are too many rather than too few.

[wiggin]

And yet you are oddly silent when similar charges are laid at Republican's feet. Either its all fair game in a political brawl or it isn't. You countenance personal attacks on say Trump's racial bias and motivation but when it comes to one of the most anti-Jewish congressional critters suddenly that's a bridge too far? I smell hypocrisy.

Lewk, I'm not going to litigate this with you but suffice it to say I tend to be much more involved in discussions regarding Israel than I do regarding the GOP. While I eschew such name calling in general, I only speak up when it's something particularly relevant to a subject I'm discussing. I have previously - and will likely in the future - criticized Congresswoman Tlaib's policy proposals and rhetoric. I wanted to make sure to distinguish my criticism of her views and statements from a personal attack on her as a person, especially since my known inclinations might make my silence seem to be agreement.

That being said, I do not find hypocrisy to be a particularly galling charge (much as it might be the ultimate gotcha in our society). I sincerely hope that everyone is hypocritical - that we all have extremely high standards we hold ourselves to, and fail to fully achieve them despite our efforts to grown and improve. Show me someone who believes they always do the right thing and I'll see someone who is either deluding themselves or is incapable of growth.

[Steely Glint]

IDF isn't really putting any effort into the "self defense" messaging—at least, not in int'l comms. They know they've all but lost the global PR war. They trotted out some wack-ass statement about int'l law to give allies cover after the attack on Jala Tower, but people tend to laugh when the IDF talks about int'l law, so it's all quite insincere and borderline clownish. It's the fact that they don't even care enough to bullshit the outside world properly that's really concerning. Right now, this is more about domestic partisan politics than anything else.

Maybe not, but the rest of the world is

Twitter Link

[RandBlade]

If you're busy doing everything you can to make someone's life intolerable, constantly provoke them, break their stuff, steal shit, etc you don't get to act like the injured party when they've suddenly had enough and lash out, you don't get to claim 'self-defense' when you put them in hospital in response and when you look round the room at everyone and say you 'had to do it because how violent they are' we can all fucking see you.

Of course everything you've written here applies to Hamas and the Arab states behind them every bit as much as Israel.

[Aimless]

Maybe not, but the rest of the world is

Twitter Link

Indeed—hence my reference to giving allies cover. But I was referring to Israel's and the IDF's focus. And even their allies are being cautious wrt the attack on Jala Tower.

[Being]

When an Israeli Palestinian is killed, is that tallied as an Israeli death or a Palestinian death?

[wiggin]

When an Israeli Palestinian is killed, is that tallied as an Israeli death or a Palestinian death?

Most of the casualty counts in the intl press are specific to violence between Israel and Gaza. So 2 of the Israeli dead from rockets (at least) we're Israeli Arabs (a father and his teenaged daughter) but casualties in the various Jewish-Arab riots are not currently being counted in most stories. Some stories are including Palestinian casualties in West Bank riots as well.

Most Israeli casualties are from the foreign ministry's press releases. Most Palestinian casualties are reported by the Hamas run Gaza Health Ministry.