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Thread: Amerikan Supreme Court Voids Ban on Animal Cruelty Videos

  1. #1

    Default Amerikan Supreme Court Voids Ban on Animal Cruelty Videos

    April 20, 2010

    Justices Void Law Banning Videos of Animal Cruelty

    By ADAM LIPTAK

    WASHINGTON — In a major First Amendment ruling, the Supreme Court on Tuesday struck down a federal law that made it a crime to create or sell dogfight videos and other depictions of animal cruelty.

    Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr., writing for the majority in the 8-to-1 decision, said that the law had created “a criminal prohibition of alarming breadth” and that the government’s aggressive defense of the law was “startling and dangerous.”

    The decision left open the possibility that Congress could enact a narrower law that would pass constitutional muster. But the existing law, Chief Justice Roberts wrote, covered too much speech protected by the First Amendment.

    It has been more than a quarter-century since the Supreme Court placed a category of speech outside the protection of the First Amendment. Tuesday’s resounding and lopsided rejection of a request that it do so, along with its decision in Citizens United in January — concluding that corporations may spend freely in candidate elections — suggest that the Roberts Court is prepared to adopt a robustly libertarian view of the constitutional protection of free speech.

    And in the next couple of months, the court is set to decide several other important First Amendment cases about anonymous speech, the right of free association and a federal law that limits speech supporting terrorist organizations.


    Tuesday’s decision arose from the prosecution of Robert J. Stevens, an author and small-time film producer who presented himself as an authority on pit bulls. He did not participate in dogfights, but he did compile and sell videotapes showing the fights, and he received a 37-month sentence under a 1999 federal law that banned trafficking in “depictions of animal cruelty.”

    Dogfighting and other forms of animal cruelty have long been illegal in all 50 states. The 1999 law addressed not the underlying activity but rather trafficking in recordings of “conduct in which a living animal is intentionally maimed, mutilated, tortured, wounded or killed.”

    It did not matter whether the conduct was legal when and where it occurred so long as it would have been illegal where the recording was sold. Some of Mr. Stevens’s videos, for instance, showed dogfighting in Japan, where the practice is legal.

    The government argued that depictions showing harm to animals were of such minimal social worth that they should receive no First Amendment protection at all. Chief Justice Roberts roundly rejected that assertion. “The First Amendment means that government has no power to restrict expression because of its message, its ideas, its subject matter or its content,” he wrote.

    The chief justice acknowledged that some kinds of speech — including obscenity, defamation, fraud, incitement and speech integral to criminal conduct — have historically been granted no constitutional protection. But he said the Supreme Court had no “freewheeling authority to declare new categories of speech outside the scope of the First Amendment.”

    Chief Justice Roberts rejected the government’s analogy to a more recent category of unprotected speech, child pornography, which the court in 1982 said deserved no First Amendment protection. Child pornography, the chief justice said, is “a special case” because the market for it is “intrinsically related to the underlying abuse.”

    Having concluded that the First Amendment had a role to play in the analysis, Chief Justice Roberts next considered whether the 1999 law swept too broadly.

    The law was enacted mainly to address what a House report called “a very specific sexual fetish” — so-called crush videos.

    “Much of the material featured women inflicting the torture with their bare feet or while wearing high-heeled shoes,” according to the report. “In some video depictions, the woman’s voice can be heard talking to the animals in a kind of dominatrix patter.”

    When President Bill Clinton signed the bill, he expressed reservations, prompted by the First Amendment, and instructed the Justice Department to limit prosecutions to “wanton cruelty to animals designed to appeal to a prurient interest in sex.”

    The law, said Wayne Pacelle, the president of the Humane Society of America, “almost immediately dried up the crush video industry.”

    But prosecutions under the law appear to have been pursued only against people accused of trafficking in dogfighting videos.

    The federal appeals court in Philadelphia struck down the law in 2008 in Mr. Stevens’s case, overturning his conviction. Tuesday’s decision in United States v. Stevens, No. 08-769, affirmed the appeals court’s ruling.

    In it, Chief Justice Roberts said the law was written too broadly. Since all hunting is illegal in the District of Columbia, for instance, he said, the law makes the sale of magazines or videos showing hunting a crime here.

    “The demand for hunting depictions exceeds the estimated demand for crush videos or animal fighting depictions by several orders of magnitude,” he wrote.

    The law contains an exception for materials with “serious religious, political, scientific, educational, journalistic, historical or artistic value.” Those exceptions were insufficient to save the statute, the chief justice wrote.

    “Most hunting videos, for example, are not obviously instructional in nature,” he said, “except in the sense that all life is a lesson.”

    Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. dissented, saying the majority’s analysis was built on “fanciful hypotheticals” and would serve to protect “depraved entertainment.” He said it was implausible to suggest that Congress meant to ban depictions of hunting or that the practice amounted to animal cruelty.

    Chief Justice Roberts replied that Justice Alito “contends that hunting depictions must have serious value because hunting has serious value, in a way that dogfights presumably do not. “But, he went on, the 1999 law “addresses the value of the depictions, not of the underlying activity.”

    The exchange was unusual, as Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Alito are almost always on the same side. In the last term, the two justices, both appointed by President George W. Bush, agreed 92 percent of the time, more than any other pair of justices.

    Justice Alito said the analogy to child pornography was a strong one. The activity underlying both kinds of depictions are crimes, he wrote. Those crimes are difficult to combat without drying up the marketplace for depictions of them and both kinds of depictions contribute at most minimally to public discourse, he added.

    A number of news organizations, including The New York Times Company, filed a brief urging the court to rule in favor of Mr. Stevens.

    Chief Justice Roberts concluded his majority opinion by suggesting that a more focused law “limited to crush videos and other depictions of extreme animal cruelty” might survive First Amendment scrutiny.

    Mr. Pacelle, of the Humane Society, called for a legislative response to Tuesday’s ruling. “Congress should within a week introduce narrowly crafted legislation,” he said, “to deal with animal crush videos and illegal animal fighting activities.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/21/us/21scotus.html
    I have a bit of trouble on this one...in principle it sounds all good and well to ban the act and not the videotape, but it's hard to imagine how this won't help people set up semi-legitimate video rings of dogfight videos and animal "crush" videos.

  2. #2
    I heard about it on the radio. The persecuted's lawyer is brilliant, she said they were made for "educational value" to promote "self-awareness" of the "dangers of the real world and pit-bulls".

  3. #3
    I'm going to assume, considering the decision was 8-1, that the law had significant structural flaws in a Constitutional context.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  4. #4
    The law was too vague, or at least that was the decision by the court.

    I'm not sure I like the idea of video being banned because society finds it distasteful. If the act itself is a crime, then there you have your criminal charges. Are we going to outlaw fictional movies that depict bad things happen? The Supreme Court got this one right.

  5. #5
    I'm not sure I like the idea of video being banned because society finds it distasteful. If the act itself is a crime, then there you have your criminal charges.
    Would this kind of reasoning apply to child pornography as well? If not, why?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Would this kind of reasoning apply to child pornography as well? If not, why?
    Snuff porn?
    The Rules
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  7. #7
    Exactly. Child porn, human snuff, animal snuff films, how are these different except in the degree of offense perceived by society? If the act is considered reprehensible, how can films of it not be? Clearly the act was performed for the films, ergo the film should be illegal as well. How is it not an accessory to the crime? It's like selling goods known to be stolen: it's a crime. This is selling goods known to be illegal as well.

    I'm with Fuzz. There were probably some serious structural flaws, and the media, in it's desperation for ratings, made it something it isn't.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    In it, Chief Justice Roberts said the law was written too broadly. Since all hunting is illegal in the District of Columbia, for instance, he said, the law makes the sale of magazines or videos showing hunting a crime here.
    That's a pretty obvious example of the law being poorly written.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  9. #9
    Nice catch. There's the rub.

  10. #10
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Would this kind of reasoning apply to child pornography as well? If not, why?
    It damn well should.

    The fact that it doesn't leads to absurdities like 10 years in federal prison for collection drawings, teenagers being arrested for producing child porn (of their own bodies, <sigh>) and people going to jail for downloading porn of The Simpsons.

    Granted, that last one is out of Australia, the land which makes legislative absurdity regarding the internet an art form, but still.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Snuff porn?
    That's legal (to posses, in America, at least).

    Frankly, if it's legal to posses images/video of people being killed and/or murdered, or of adults being raped (and it is)... how is it that kiddie porn possession should be illegal (and a strict liability crime, at that)?

    Same old story - if society hates you enough, you have no rights. Yesterday it was the gays... today it's the pedophiles... hopefully, tomorrow it will be Democrats.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  11. #11
    Two out of those three are images produced without accompanying crime (we've talked about this before Kain, you know I'm on your side vis a vis cartoon kiddy diddling), and I'd say the third one should be, too.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  12. #12
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Two out of those three are images produced without accompanying crime (we've talked about this before Kain, you know I'm on your side vis a vis cartoon kiddy diddling), and I'd say the third one should be, too.
    I know - I'm just saying that we should be consistent with our laws - and lookit how fucked up things get when we aren't. (Shockingly bizarre concept, yeah.)

    If it's not illegal to posses images or video of a crime, it shouldn't be illegal to posses images or video of a crime. Whether that crime is murder, robbery, jaywalking, or the rape of underage individuals.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  13. #13
    If it's not illegal to posses images or video of a crime, it shouldn't be illegal to posses images or video of a crime. Whether that crime is murder, robbery, jaywalking, or the rape of underage individuals.
    I'm having trouble adding two and two together today, it seems. I'm assuming animal cruelty (such as stiletto-stomping a kitten to death, rawrhot) is illegal in the US. As is diddling kiddies. (Definition of kiddies is a states' right, natch) But is drawing Lisa banging Bart illegal, other than for copyright infringement?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Same old story - if society hates you enough, you have no rights. Yesterday it was the gays... today it's the pedophiles... hopefully, tomorrow it will be Democrats.
    I think pedophiles will not make it to acceptability - they by nature harm non-concenting adults.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  15. #15
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    But is drawing Lisa banging Bart illegal, other than for copyright infringement?
    The honest answer is that it depends entirely on whether the relevant federal prosecutor wants to put you in jail or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I think pedophiles will not make it to acceptability - they by nature harm non-concenting adults.
    Do they, though?

    The question reminds me of the controversy over the Catholic (?) stance on homosexuality a few years back. Gay sex is a sin, but being gay isn't. Being sexually attracted to whatever does not necessarily mean being sexually active with the objects of your attraction.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Do they, though?

    The question reminds me of the controversy over the Catholic (?) stance on homosexuality a few years back. Gay sex is a sin, but being gay isn't. Being sexually attracted to whatever does not necessarily mean being sexually active with the objects of your attraction.
    Well if you're talking about non-practicing pedophiles, that's different. Although I'm not sure many parents would be comfortable letting a non-practicing pedophile babysit their children. I assumed you meant accepting pedophiles as they are, the way the US is slowly starting to do with gays.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I think pedophiles will not make it to acceptability - they by nature harm non-concenting adults.
    Apart from the grammar mistake, our society has accepted:

    A] Women
    B] Blacks
    C] Gays
    D] Interracial marriages
    E] Polygamy
    F] Freedom of [insert nonsense because the government controls a lot of socio-economic aspects of our lives already)

    Do I need to go on? Seriously, I can see bestiality becoming accepted in the next few decades because we have a population crisis and all the cool kids fuck chimps nowadays.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Two out of those three are images produced without accompanying crime (we've talked about this before Kain, you know I'm on your side vis a vis cartoon kiddy diddling), and I'd say the third one should be, too.
    It's interesting how I find myself agreeing with LochNessus today!


    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I'm having trouble adding two and two together today, it seems. I'm assuming animal cruelty (such as stiletto-stomping a kitten to death, rawrhot) is illegal in the US. As is diddling kiddies. (Definition of kiddies is a states' right, natch) But is drawing Lisa banging Bart illegal, other than for copyright infringement?
    Exactly. It's stepping on our (US) constitutional rights to make the posession of a video of a crime illegal and only makes sense in the context of a prosecutor winning a popularity contest with his (or her) blood-starved constituents.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Exactly. It's stepping on our (US) constitutional rights to make the posession of a video of a crime illegal and only makes sense in the context of a prosecutor winning a popularity contest with his (or her) blood-starved constituents.
    I tend to despise DAs, whether Dem or Rep, because of their pronounced tendency to enforce the law with an eye to political expediency (see Duke lacrosse case). But I'm not sure I have a problem with the video possession law if it is well written (which this one was clearly not, so let's not go there.) After all, if you knowingly possess stolen goods, it is illegal, right? If you knowingly possess videos of felonies, it's illegal. How is it different? Isn't it essentially aiding and abetting? Do you think it should NOT be illegal to knowingly possess stolen goods?

    Though I will say the law would need to be well written. For example, not illegal to have a video of a "Cops" show or news broadcast where a felony is committed, but illegal to own, say a snuff film.

    I'm torn on this, not sure what to decide.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Young Mage View Post
    Apart from the grammar mistake, our society has accepted:

    A] Women
    B] Blacks
    C] Gays
    D] Interracial marriages
    E] Polygamy
    F] Freedom of [insert nonsense because the government controls a lot of socio-economic aspects of our lives already)

    Do I need to go on? Seriously, I can see bestiality becoming accepted in the next few decades because we have a population crisis and all the cool kids fuck chimps nowadays.
    All of the above involve consenting adults

  21. #21
    Wait a sec. He said that? Our society accepts neither gays nor polygamy (or not legally).

  22. #22
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    If you knowingly possess videos of felonies, it's illegal.
    No it's not. Hell, they broadcast such videos on network news on regular basis. It's apparently OK to watch someone get assaulted or killed, but seeing a titties is a big no-no and seeing a titty that's less than 18 years old apparently requires hard time in a federal prison.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    It's apparently OK to watch someone get assaulted or killed, but seeing a titties is a big no-no and seeing a titty that's less than 18 years old apparently requires hard time in a federal prison.
    ...with all the risks that brings
    There's a man goin' 'round, takin' names
    And he decides who to free and who to blame

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    No it's not. Hell, they broadcast such videos on network news on regular basis. It's apparently OK to watch someone get assaulted or killed, but seeing a titties is a big no-no and seeing a titty that's less than 18 years old apparently requires hard time in a federal prison.
    That was a train of thought, not a a statement of fact. The two seem reasonably linked to me, and should be treated the same legally.

    Don't get me started on the double standard of violence vs. sex in US film ratings. All I can say is that the puritans were extremely hung up about sex, but seemed to looove violence. Because we essentially have hardcore violence porn rated the same as a view of breasts. There's a huge disconnect there.

  25. #25
    Rape and Pillage.

    Property first, a right to be protected, as owners. Women and children first, a right to be rescued, as dependents.

    How far have we come?

  26. #26
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    That was a train of thought, not a a statement of fact. The two seem reasonably linked to me, and should be treated the same legally.
    I know - just pointing out that your train of thought is factually incorrect.

    However, "the two" (I assume you mean possessing stolen property and possession of a video of a crime) are not reasonably linked at all, at least not in today's world. When I possess your TV, I prevent you from having it. There is no such effect with the possession of information, which, with our technology can be replicated limitlessly at virtually no cost. In essence, me possessing your [stolen] TV harms you (by depriving you of it), while me possessing a video of someone stealing your TV does not actually harm you... and could, in fact, be helpful to you in tracking down who stole your TV and getting it back.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    All of the above involve consenting adults
    Beastiality can't be too far off then if we (society) were to go by your ideology.

    Beastiality has a consenting adult and a dumb bull which happens to cums buckets inside a tight and tasty vagina. A great movie in the mackin' making.

    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    Wait a sec. He said that? Our society accepts neither gays nor polygamy (or not legally).
    Orlly? I find it ironic how law-enforcing institutions (jails) were designed with the sole purpose of segregating the shits from us through the implementation of draconian laws. Yet we still have fucking-flaming-flamboyant butt-pirates shaving each others' nads in the shower on a daily basis in those very institutions. It's a known fact to humanity, even children half my age know what "dropping the soap" means and if society really did not accept it, action would have been taken against those tank-top-wearing-mascara-applying homos long ago. Care to explain that one? Or are you just going to ignore all my "constructive" posts?

    According to one study, 22.3% of male U.S. prison inmates had reported being a victim of prison rape. Although the rapist or the male who coerces sex with another male has clearly chosen to have sex with another male, other prisoners will view the male who has been raped or coerced as homosexual if he is unwilling to kill or die to protect himself from rape or is willing to negotiate a relationship to protect himself from attack by multiple rapists, while the perpetrator is not similarly labeled. This encourages and perpetuates sexual violence in an atmosphere where power and the perception thereof is regarded as paramount.
    -SPR Academic Study

    That's a staggering number of prison-bitches being sodomized; now multiply the number by a factor or 1.5-2 and you'll have an approximation of how many gays there are in prison.

  28. #28
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Young Mage View Post
    That's a staggering number of prison-bitches being sodomized; now multiply the number by a factor or 1.5-2 and you'll have an approximation of how many gays there are in prison.
    Like the study acknowledged - it's not gay if you're the one on top.

    "You may notice my partner Gregg' isn't here; that's because he was raptured. Apparently God does love gays, but only if they're tops."
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Like the study acknowledged - it's not gay if you're the one on top.

    Lmao.
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    "You may notice my partner Gregg' isn't here; that's because he was raptured. Apparently God does love gays, but only if they're tops."
    Frankly, I'm not a real believer, but I'll just say this : If God wanted homosexuality he'd create Adam and Steve, not Adam and Eve.

  30. #30
    So does your dating strategy involve rape? Or have the words sodomy and sodomize created an unfortunate mis-wiring in your lizard brain?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

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