Greece, the gloves are off

[RandBlade]

Maybe so, but if people think and say stupid things a leader shouldn't reinforce the stupidity, especially if that leader understands that the ones who are going to be hurt most are the people whose interests he's supposed to protect.

But the leader has a critical election coming up for her own country, being tied down to the Greek's mess is unfortunate but not her sole concern. Nor is it the German's who'll suffer most if the euro project fails as you said it could.

II wouldn't be so certain of that any longer. To me it seems no coincidence that the Greeks jacked up their retirement age to the exact number the Germans are raising it to.

Indeed its not, but that's not the end of the story. What about the much-discussed dishonest and tax evasion? There's plenty of issues for the German electorate to pick up on.

Putting harsh conditions on a clear aid-package would have done the trick. As things were it was unclear conditions for a package that might happen. And the market reacted to that opaqueness.

Indeed. But from a democratic perspective even that would still be unpopular.

There was; harsh conditions for a clear guarantee.

Still would be unpopular - you're crazy if you it would be otherwise. There already are harsh conditions, hence both Greek and German complaints. No-one is happy.

Yeah well, that the majority of Brits are batfuck crazy when thinking about the euro is a fact. That they are even too stupid to realise that with your financial problems and your independent currency you are as much at risk as the Greeks are with none of the protection their EMU membership offers also doesn't surprise me. Any sane person would have understood that the UK would be in a much better situation if it had the euro for its currency.

LOL, are you seriously trying to convince anyone with that bullshit?

You're seriously stupid if you think we'd be in a better position if we were either (A) having to borrow more money to pay for the Greeks or (B) having to be bailed out ourselves as Greece instead, if we'd not had our currency devalued by the free market. It is the eurozone nations suffering the most from this, don't try and pretend we should be envious.

As for none of the protection, good. Lets ensure we sort our own mess out and not rely on others to bail us out.

Enjoying your 'devalued' currency much by the way?

Yes, very much indeed. Its done its job correctly and supported the economy as its supposed to, to see us through to the election and from Friday next week we have a new government that can start to turn the fiscal situation around. Much better than the Greek tragedy.

[CitizenCain]

people like me tend to end up sucking dick for crack in the glory of the United States of Murika.

World needs ditch-diggers crack-addicted dick suckers too.

Though, in all seriousness, if you actually believe that's, it's far more rooted in socialist propaganda than reality. Your approval of socialism not withstanding, you're smart enough to make it over here and become one of those six-figure salary fat cats you hate.

[Nessus]

World needs ditch-diggers crack-addicted dick suckers too.

Though, in all seriousness, if you actually believe that's, it's far more rooted in socialist propaganda than reality. Your approval of socialism not withstanding, you're smart enough to make it over here and become one of those six-figure salary fat cats you hate.

I recall a time when you did not telegraph your stupidity quite this loudly, but perhaps I was too bamboozled by your style to notice

[Hazir]

But the leader has a critical election coming up for her own country, being tied down to the Greek's mess is unfortunate but not her sole concern. Nor is it the German's who'll suffer most if the euro project fails as you said it could.

What critical election? It's a state election and if Merkel would have been clear about the risks of the situation I am certain she could have convinced her voters.

Indeed its not, but that's not the end of the story. What about the much-discussed dishonest and tax evasion? There's plenty of issues for the German electorate to pick up on.
Indeed. But from a democratic perspective even that would still be unpopular.
Still would be unpopular - you're crazy if you it would be otherwise. There already are harsh conditions, hence both Greek and German complaints. No-one is happy.
LOL, are you seriously trying to convince anyone with that bullshit?

I know I can't convince you, you're too blinded by the shine of having your own mickey mouse money.

You're seriously stupid if you think we'd be in a better position if we were either (A) having to borrow more money to pay for the Greeks or (B) having to be bailed out ourselves as Greece instead, if we'd not had our currency devalued by the free market. It is the eurozone nations suffering the most from this, don't try and pretend we should be envious.

As for none of the protection, good. Lets ensure we sort our own mess out and not rely on others to bail us out.
Yes, very much indeed. Its done its job correctly and supported the economy as its supposed to, to see us through to the election and from Friday next week we have a new government that can start to turn the fiscal situation around. Much better than the Greek tragedy.

Dream on I'd say. If your miracle election doesn't materialize we won't be talking about a Greek crisis any longer but about the British meltdown.

[CitizenCain]

I recall a time when you did not telegraph your stupidity quite this loudly, but perhaps I was too bamboozled by your style to notice

Given my current lack of anything better to do...

Do you want to qualify/explain that statement, or should I continue to shrug it off and snicker?

(Snicker at the fact that you think it's loudly stupid of me to believe you're smart enough to stand on your own, without the government spoon-feeding you. Seriously - if you'd like me to think of you as too weak and pathetic to be at all worthwhile without someone else to take care of you, just say so, and I'll be happy to oblige.)

[Nessus]

Yes, Kain, you can laugh out loud if you want. I readily admit that I did not manage to pull myself from my bootstraps, at any point in my life. All of the good things, the things I value and the things my employer values in me, were granted by socialism, by the filthy practice of the gubment robbing (OLOL) someone of their money and the gubment using it to my benefit. Laugh all the way to the bank. I do! I love my work. And I am indebted beyond measure to a system you contest does nothing but suck mankind dry of all that is worthwhile.

[CitizenCain]

Yes, Kain, you can laugh out loud if you want. I readily admit that I did not manage to pull myself from my bootstraps, at any point in my life.

There's a substantial difference between pulling yourself up by your boot straps or climbing out of the gutter "all on your own" and a free-market voluntary exchange, such as the one we all do involving time, labor and a paycheck. Unless, of course, you're claiming that the work you do is of absolutely no economic value and you wouldn't be employable in a free market system... which I would find hard to believe given how many scientists work in corporate research labs, doing "worthless" sciency stuff that leads to cheaper transistors, better materials and new technologies, which are are sold by the corporations at a tidy profit.

I don't see (at all) how this means you're indebted to socialism or how you couldn't have done it without socialism, unless you're proposing that having government employees is limited to socialism (which would be interesting, feel free to do so, if you want).

[Nessus]

No, I'm sure you wouldn't! Nor would I be inclined to explain it to a heartless, worthless jackass such as you! And furthermore, I find it incredibly chauvinistic that you're making all sorts of assumptions about what exactly I research and how worthwhile that is to iPods and man-maiming devices!

[CitizenCain]

My bad, I was sure you were a physicist. Maybe you're studying "the physics of feminist thought," if you're going to try to maintain the position that your work is of absolutely no economic value.

[Nessus]

Spoken like a true humanities student

[earthJoker]

What critical election? It's a state election and if Merkel would have been clear about the risks of the situation I am certain she could have convinced her voters.

NRW is not just a state it's the largest with 18 Million Citizens.

[Being]

Wow! Jethro Tull was way ahead of the times.

In the shuffling madess
of the locomotive breath,
runs the all-time loser,
headlong to his death.
He feels the piston scraping --
steam breaking on his brow --
oh Greece stole the handle and
the train won't stop going --
no way to slow down.

[RandBlade]

What critical election? It's a state election and if Merkel would have been clear about the risks of the situation I am certain she could have convinced her voters.

NRW is not just a state. Its also a pretty critical state, if the CDU lose NRW then they automatically lose control of the Bundesrat too. That means that in practice its has federal consequences.

Dream on I'd say. If your miracle election doesn't materialize we won't be talking about a Greek crisis any longer but about the British meltdown.

That's irrelevant to sterling/euro. If Brown is re-elected then we will have a British meltdown - being a member of the eurozone would not have prevented it anymore than the euro prevented the current Greek tragedy.

[Hazir]

NRW has 6 votes in the Bundesrat, even if Merkel were to lose control over their voting power she'd still hold a massive majority there. So the effects of losing NRW will just be losing NRW. Which really isn't so bad if the alternative is plunging your banking sector into a second major crisis with a serious risk of tanking the economy at large (after which the following elections will make sure losing NRW was only the beginning).

As for the euro not preventing the Greek tragedy; maybe, but it is sure keeping that from turning into a complete meltdown.

[RandBlade]

CDU/CSU and FDP currently have 37/69 votes, a majority. If NRW were to go to SPD then they'd only have 31/69 - not a majority.

They'd still have a slender majority when counting the states they have combined with the Greens, but not a "massive majority" by any means.

[Hazir]

The states have bloc votes, and are bound to go with the goverment in all states where the CDU/CSU is in power, regardless of their coalition partners.

[Dreadnaught]

Interestingly from a British perspective the Greek crisis has killed dead any lingering chance of joining the euro. A lot of people are looking at that whole mess and thinking "their but for the grace of God". One of the surprising moments of last nights final debate was when Cameron attacked Clegg's support as recently as a few months ago of joining the euro and saying how good it was now that we're not so we're not in the same situation as Greece/having to bail out Greece. Clegg was left stammering before saying he didn't support Britain joining the euro, a complete 180.

Maybe so, but if people think and say stupid things a leader shouldn't reinforce the stupidity, especially if that leader understands that the ones who are going to be hurt most are the people whose interests he's supposed to protect. II wouldn't be so certain of that any longer. To me it seems no coincidence that the Greeks jacked up their retirement age to the exact number the Germans are raising it to. Putting harsh conditions on a clear aid-package would have done the trick. As things were it was unclear conditions for a package that might happen. And the market reacted to that opaqueness. There was; harsh conditions for a clear guarantee. Yeah well, that the majority of Brits are batfuck crazy when thinking about the euro is a fact. That they are even too stupid to realise that with your financial problems and your independent currency you are as much at risk as the Greeks are with none of the protection their EMU membership offers also doesn't surprise me. Any sane person would have understood that the UK would be in a much better situation if it had the euro for its currency.

Enjoying your 'devalued' currency much by the way?

I think you're both right —*this does demonstrate a fundamental weakness of the Euro (and enforcing the pact requirements about deficits. But it doesn't mean keeping the British pound particularly avoided these stormy waters.

[RandBlade]

It's not possible for any nation to avoid stormy waters.

Keeping the pound means we're responsible for our own waters.

Having the euro means the waters are shared: Germany gets dragged down by Greece, Greece gets a helping hand from Germany.

Neither method could ever be perfect. Depends if you prefer international co-operation or independent responsibility.

[Hazir]

Germany doesn't get dragged down by Greece you dimwit. Banks are being dragged down by Greece at a moment that we can't really afford our banks to take any losses. If there hadn't been a financial crisis going on Greece could have defaulted for all anybody would have cared. The problem is that banks didn't spread with enough caution and thus are over exposed to the Greek debt. Saving Greece is about saving banks in Germany and other countries. Including the UK.

[RandBlade]

Which is why the UK is bailing out Greece?

Oh wait, its not. The eurozone nations are. Try again.

[Being]

Huh. Looks like all they need to do is start collecting the taxes their people owe and they'll be about out of trouble.

Greeks cheat on taxes

[Hazir]

Which is why the UK is bailing out Greece?

Oh wait, its not. The eurozone nations are. Try again.

Right, like the IMF isn't co-funding this rescue, try again.

Huh. Looks like all they need to do is start collecting the taxes their people owe and they'll be about out of trouble.

Greeks cheat on taxes

The tax-system itself is even encouraging it. In Greece you will see a lot of houses that never seem to be quite out of the building stage. Reason? Not untill the building of your house is finished do you pay property taxes on it.

[RandBlade]

Right, like the IMF isn't co-funding this rescue, try again.

Whereas if it weren't for the euro the IMF would be funding the rescue, like the last Labour government that stooped to the IMF.

The tax-system itself is even encouraging it. In Greece you will see a lot of houses that never seem to be quite out of the building stage. Reason? Not untill the building of your house is finished do you pay property taxes on it.

And the Germans seriously have no reason to be at all annoyed ...

[Hazir]

You didn't understand that part of the IMF money comes from the UK?

[RandBlade]

I do indeed, 5% IIRC. However there's a difference between a share within the IMF and a significantly bigger share within the Eurozone.

[Dreadnaught]

Yesterday's May Day/I Want Govt Money marches:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDU1-1_xUMc



What a lovely country of brats.

[Hazir]

Yeah, but they had those demonstrations already before there was a question of austerity measures.

[GGT]

They're not a country of brats. They're a county that's had endemic corruption for decades, with promises made that could never be sustained. Reality has hit and they're angry. It might be misdirected anger, but that doesn't make them brats.

[Hazir]

You are wrong, this type of demonstration is how they used to get things their way. They haven't gotten to the point yet where they realise no amount of rioting is going to protect them from the fact that their state is technically bankrupt. The only way they could succeed is that other states realise it's not going to work this way and that they pull out of the Greek mess. After which Greece will default, and will simply have to stop paying salaries and pensions alltogether.

[Dreadnaught]

Hazir is right, this stuff is common from what I've heard.