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Thread: SEC sues Goldman Sachs for fraud

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    1) Its one way that fraud can hide in complexity (with speed), yes. SEC has basically admitted that

    2) No, you can't just jump into the hog futures market as an individual. And I don't care what stocks you buy, whether you use a big brokerage firm or e-trade. That's not the suggestion of two distinct markets that (in theory, and it wasn't my idea) keep retail investors and pension funds separate from hedge funds or synthetics. Rather like how the mercantile exchange was separate from NYSE. There's also a suggestion for a new exchange where OTC derivatives would be traded and regulated, not in private in dark.

    3) No--the 50b "insurance fund" is a bad idea IMO. Some say there should be a limit to how big they can grow (100b or 2% of GDP), not sure how that'd work. But it's crazy to have financial services be over 40% of GDP growth, or 5-6 banks holding half of all mortgages and 2/3 of credit cards.
    1) The whole point is that Madoff wasn't really trading anything at all. And he used antiquated systems to print statements that couldn't be plugged-in/tracked to said fast computerized trading systems.

    2) You really can't somehow decouple some equity/commodity markets from others just by legally making it so. People need to grow up and realize that investing (and economic growth) has downside risk that happens sometimes.

    3) I think financial services are maybe 12% of our economy by revenue. The UK is where it's something like 40%. But here is where you and I aren't seeing eye to eye —*I also agree that imbalanced economies are bad. And you've heard me complain about stupid people in finance making tons of money before.

    But the solution is for us to stop creating byzantine new taxes, regulations and other barriers to successful economic growth. We know that financiers are always going to ride on the margins between the Fed funds rate and prevailing interest rates. So we need to stop making the rest of the economy so uncompetitive.

  2. #62
    1) Madoff was gambling and using tech rapidity, SEC couldn't/didn't keep up. His fake print statement were just part of the dupe for the clients.

    2) What's with you always saying 'mature' and 'grow up'? Everyone knows risk is part of the system, it's outrageous and outsized risk with over leveraged and under capitalized aggregate that causes problems (AIG). Markets (as in exchanges) are separated to a degree already, MBTE-NYSE-NASDAQ, and they have legal requirements for membership/certification, etc. The concept seems to allude you, if you think it's all about "new taxes and barriers to growth".

    An example is the difference b/w slot machines and high-stakes poker, in the same casino, different games with different rules but same oversights for stacking decks or manipulating machines. High rollers can get house credit on margin, granny gets a cup of coins and when they're gone--she's done.

    History of "money managers and financial advisors", especially for states and municipalities and unions, shows what happened when everyone jumped into the stocks and bonds and swaps markets. Now pensions are sunk and budgets have tanked. (I'll try to find a link to a good break-down from bloomberg that I read a while ago that connects the dots.)

    3) I said our GDP growth had a disproportionate amount from financial services. That included the wizardry and fancy accounting tricks that didn't really produce a real thing, money making money, trading fast and loose. And banks are still doing it---borrowing cheap money from the fed, buying treasurys, but not necessarily lending or distributing the capital so people can create real things or real jobs.

  3. #63

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    1) Madoff was gambling and using tech rapidity, SEC couldn't/didn't keep up. His fake print statement were just part of the dupe for the clients.

    2) What's with you always saying 'mature' and 'grow up'? Everyone knows risk is part of the system, it's outrageous and outsized risk with over leveraged and under capitalized aggregate that causes problems (AIG). Markets (as in exchanges) are separated to a degree already, MBTE-NYSE-NASDAQ, and they have legal requirements for membership/certification, etc. The concept seems to allude you, if you think it's all about "new taxes and barriers to growth".

    An example is the difference b/w slot machines and high-stakes poker, in the same casino, different games with different rules but same oversights for stacking decks or manipulating machines. High rollers can get house credit on margin, granny gets a cup of coins and when they're gone--she's done.

    History of "money managers and financial advisors", especially for states and municipalities and unions, shows what happened when everyone jumped into the stocks and bonds and swaps markets. Now pensions are sunk and budgets have tanked. (I'll try to find a link to a good break-down from bloomberg that I read a while ago that connects the dots.)

    3) I said our GDP growth had a disproportionate amount from financial services. That included the wizardry and fancy accounting tricks that didn't really produce a real thing, money making money, trading fast and loose. And banks are still doing it---borrowing cheap money from the fed, buying treasurys, but not necessarily lending or distributing the capital so people can create real things or real jobs.
    Indeed stock market (except for IPO equity) and derivatives makes money to go away from actual production and creation of value added.
    So money goes into a market where people trade papers and bet on them.

    In 2006 stock market was 3 times bigger than world profits, and derivatives market was 10 times bigger. If a crash takes place, just like it happened in 1998 (when derivatives market was small), there will be no money on the planet for a bailout.

    Derivatives are bets that create toxic assets (fake money not backed by anything real) as money multiplies in a market of papers using accounting tricks.
    Stocks are also bets.

    Once you put your money into the bet market, NYSE will collect a fee if you sell everything and keep your money idle (not under risk) so you have no option but stay inside the casino and bet.
    They even lend money to those who bet, and of course they have to pay some interest, and they make money every time you trade.

    Tell me how the richest men on Earth became rich and you will see they did not do it working hard and producing something.
    They became rich as bankers, creating money, lending it and the collecting it, and finally betting the money in the casino of stocks and derivatives.
    Any profit that is above GDP (excluding insurances and banks) should be considered as speculation as they would be creating a bubble, since production can't grow as such markets of papers do, so some of the money will not be backed by anything real, turning themselves into toxic assets/fake money in accounting books.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    1) Madoff was gambling and using tech rapidity, SEC couldn't/didn't keep up. His fake print statement were just part of the dupe for the clients.

    2) What's with you always saying 'mature' and 'grow up'? Everyone knows risk is part of the system, it's outrageous and outsized risk with over leveraged and under capitalized aggregate that causes problems (AIG). Markets (as in exchanges) are separated to a degree already, MBTE-NYSE-NASDAQ, and they have legal requirements for membership/certification, etc. The concept seems to allude you, if you think it's all about "new taxes and barriers to growth".

    An example is the difference b/w slot machines and high-stakes poker, in the same casino, different games with different rules but same oversights for stacking decks or manipulating machines. High rollers can get house credit on margin, granny gets a cup of coins and when they're gone--she's done.

    History of "money managers and financial advisors", especially for states and municipalities and unions, shows what happened when everyone jumped into the stocks and bonds and swaps markets. Now pensions are sunk and budgets have tanked. (I'll try to find a link to a good break-down from bloomberg that I read a while ago that connects the dots.)

    3) I said our GDP growth had a disproportionate amount from financial services. That included the wizardry and fancy accounting tricks that didn't really produce a real thing, money making money, trading fast and loose. And banks are still doing it---borrowing cheap money from the fed, buying treasurys, but not necessarily lending or distributing the capital so people can create real things or real jobs.
    Indeed stock market (except for IPO equity) and derivatives makes money to go away from actual production and creation of value added.
    So money goes into a market where people trade papers and bet on them.

    In 2006 stock market was 3 times bigger than world profits, and derivatives market was 10 times bigger. If a crash takes place, just like it happened in 1998 (when derivatives market was small), there will be no money on the planet for a bailout.

    Derivatives are bets that create toxic assets (fake money not backed by anything real) as money multiplies in a market of papers using accounting tricks.
    Stocks are also bets.

    Once you put your money into the bet market, NYSE will collect a fee if you sell everything and keep your money idle (not under risk) so you have no option but stay inside the casino and bet.
    They even lend money to those who bet, and of course they have to pay some interest, and they make money every time you trade.

    Tell me how the richest men on Earth became rich and you will see they did not do it working hard and producing something.
    They became rich as bankers, creating money, lending it and the collecting it, and finally betting the money in the casino of stocks and derivatives.
    Any profit that is above GDP (excluding insurances and banks) should be considered as speculation as they would be creating a bubble, since production can't grow as such markets of papers do, so some of the money will not be backed by anything real, turning themselves into toxic assets/fake money in accounting books.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  6. #66
    That's the whole "shadow economy" that is out of control. It's too bad the old traditional models of stocks as investing in value, and banking as yield between deposits and lending, got all whacked out by the proprietary trading, speculation, synthetic crap. And the notion that risk can just be off-set in an insurance policy, or insurance on the insurance, or traded around on paper like a hot potatoe in hedge funds.


  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    That's the whole "shadow economy" that is out of control. It's too bad the old traditional models of stocks as investing in value, and banking as yield between deposits and lending, got all whacked out by the proprietary trading, speculation, synthetic crap.


    That's never, ever been the case, even once in the history of the world. You're buying into a historical fantasy of the world that never was. Not surprising given some of the other things you're stubbornly holding onto in this thread, but all the same, you're just plain wrong about this too.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post


    That's never, ever been the case, even once in the history of the world. You're buying into a historical fantasy of the world that never was. Not surprising given some of the other things you're stubbornly holding onto in this thread, but all the same, you're just plain wrong about this too.
    No, you're wrong. Just because you didn't notice the shift in the way they operate, doesn't mean they didn't change. Bankers now act more like traders and use proprietary desks for profits, instead of boring deposits and loans. Check the CD rates and savings interest lately? They're crap. And you can find plenty of articles lamenting how GS went from long term greedy to short term greedy, and gave up its clients for itself.


  9. #69
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    No, you simpleton.

    You're hilariously wrong because you assume that "the old traditional models of stocks as investing in value" ever actually existed. It did not. Never has, never will.

    That's a completely separate issue from the whether or not things are fucked up now (and I'm sure the 47 billion pages worth of regulations on the financial services sector have nothing to with that, either, but lets add more, just to be safe. )
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    No, you simpleton.

    You're hilariously wrong because you assume that "the old traditional models of stocks as investing in value" ever actually existed. It did not. Never has, never will.
    Citation needed.

  11. #71
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    OK.



    Did they suffer a WWII-style carpet bombing that destroyed 65 billion dollars worth of "value," or, perhaps, is stock price not an indicator of actual value, but rather something else?
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Don't try to misrepresent what I've said about business or investor goals changing over time, into something else. When I say traditional investing in value, not prop trading, that's what I mean---buy and hold stocks, profits on dividends or long term capital gains. Same in housing---buy and hold; for the owner and mortgage originator / servicer. Not speculating or flipping, or creating false value in transactional builds.

    But it's interesting you picked an Enron chart, since there was fraud and manipulation there, criminal activity in their scheme. They were able to hide a long time until the house of cards fell down. Today it's Lehman with repo 105, or Merrill's dark debt before their purchase, or AIG with one trillion of off-sheet liability *or the ratings agencies being ineffective*. Plenty of fuzzy math accounting tricks or "ethical" slime to go around....

    Now, maybe you don't think GS will be found guilty of anything, or they'll decide to pay a fine and settle with SEC. It won't take away the need for financial system updates and regulations for the 21st century. The "shadow" market still needs to be brought to light. There's no way the derivatives markets (notional value of over 400 TRILLION USD) can or should be brushed under a rug.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Not speculating or flipping, or creating false value in transactional builds.
    So, when someone makes a bet on a stock being worth more 20 years from now, that's solid "investing." But when they make the same bet, on a shorter time frame, that's "speculating," and it's bad? In case you've missed the whole fiasco we're talking about, one of the lessons here is that long term bets are riskier than short term ones.

    Seriously, stop getting all your financial sector knowledge from "buzzword of the day" popular news media. If they had any clue about what the fuck they're talking about, they wouldn't have been surprised by this bubble popping... but they were, so they don't know shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    But it's interesting you picked an Enron chart, since there was fraud and manipulation there, criminal activity in their scheme.
    Actually, interestingly enough, the fraud charge that Lay was convicted of was for transactions which were disclosed in Enron's financial statements. Had anyone bothered to look, and followed up on their financial statements, it was pretty clear that Enron was just pushing off liabilities to shell corporations to make their numbers look better.

    Which, of course, still doesn't answer the original question I posed you - did Enron lose 65 billion dollars in value because they got carpet bombed, or is it, perhaps, the case that stock price doesn't represent *actual* value?

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    It won't take away the need for financial system updates and regulations for the 21st century. The "shadow" market still needs to be brought to light.
    Right, right. The market's not complex enough, we need to add 100 million more pages worth of regulations to fix it, because God knows, that always helps.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    So, when someone makes a bet on a stock being worth more 20 years from now, that's solid "investing." But when they make the same bet, on a shorter time frame, that's "speculating," and it's bad? In case you've missed the whole fiasco we're talking about, one of the lessons here is that long term bets are riskier than short term ones.
    For housing, yes that's speculating. And speculating on mortgages, MBSs, and synthetic CDOs turned out to be very bad strategy.

    Seriously, stop getting all your financial sector knowledge from "buzzword of the day" popular news media. If they had any clue about what the fuck they're talking about, they wouldn't have been surprised by this bubble popping... but they were, so they don't know shit.
    In this sentence, who is "they"? The media or broker-agents who sold synthetics related to RE and mortgages? Or the ratings agencies who gave AAA to fannie and freddie crap that tanked? Or the sophisticated market-makers who made bets on AAA ratings?





    Actually, interestingly enough, the fraud charge that Lay was convicted of was for transactions which were disclosed in Enron's financial statements. Had anyone bothered to look, and followed up on their financial statements, it was pretty clear that Enron was just pushing off liabilities to shell corporations to make their numbers look better.
    And did they ever close the "Enron loophole"?

    Which, of course, still doesn't answer the original question I posed you - did Enron lose 65 billion dollars in value because they got carpet bombed, or is it, perhaps, the case that stock price doesn't represent *actual* value?
    We're not talking about the same things when it comes to value, obviously.



    Right, right. The market's not complex enough, we need to add 100 million more pages worth of regulations to fix it, because God knows, that always helps.
    You can't have it both ways. If innovation and "market-making" are going to be with us, they need to be in some exchange or clearing house. They can't just exist in the shadows because they're NEW.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    For housing, yes that's speculating. And speculating on mortgages, MBSs, and synthetic CDOs turned out to be very bad strategy.
    Alright, so you're... railing against investing in general, then?

    Because, FYI, all "investment" is speculative. By definition, actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    In this sentence, who is "they"? The media or broker-agents who sold synthetics related to RE and mortgages? Or the ratings agencies who gave AAA to fannie and freddie crap that tanked? Or the sophisticated market-makers who made bets on AAA ratings?
    The retards you're getting your wildly erroneous information from...

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    And did they ever close the "Enron loophole"?
    You mean the ability to transfer assets and liabilities from one corporation to another?

    No, no, I don't think they have. Again, that you even ask the question demonstrates you're just ripping your knowledge from sensationalistic headlines instead of actually having an understanding of the topic at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    We're not talking about the same things when it comes to value, obviously.
    I'm using the actual definition, and you're using...?
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  16. #76
    Sigh. I'm talking about distinct types of money management. Traditional banking / lending, boring fixed mortgages that are held by the originator (and not sold multiple times or turned into synthetics), conservative long-term buying of stocks with a smaller profit. Versus the risk-laden fast speculating and trading, or market-making with 30% ROI.

    It's all gambling, sure. But if I want to play the slot machines, I don't want to be forced into paying a cover fee for the bets at the high-roller poker table. I want the house to charge them for their risks, not pass them down to me.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Sigh. I'm talking about distinct types of money management.
    Yes, but you're getting even the basic fundamentals wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    It's all gambling, sure. But if I want to play the slot machines, I don't want to be forced into paying a cover fee for the bets at the high-roller poker table. I want the house to charge them for their risks, not pass them down to me.
    Good luck with that. You, and your money are property of the state, and they will spend you as they see fit.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Yes, but you're getting even the basic fundamentals wrong.
    Really. I have a very good knowledge of the basics, and even more complex things. I've been gambling longer than you've been alive. And hedge funds don't interest me, don't want to be involved with them, or have their contagion spill outside their black box. But that's exactly what's happened in this mess.

    AIG was more of a hedge fund posing as an insurance company, over leveraged and under-capitalized. Goldman has no business being under the charter of a bank-holding company with full protection from the government. They're traders and market-makers, they're not a real "bank", and they've admitted they don't provide financial advice so they're not really fund managers.



    Good luck with that. You, and your money are property of the state, and they will spend you as they see fit.[/QUOTE]

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Really. I have a very good knowledge of the basics, and even more complex things.
    You don't even know what stock price is a representation of. So, no, you don't.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    You don't even know what stock price is a representation of. So, no, you don't.
    Well, well. I guess you just wanted a fight, some place to say how everyone is so stupid.

    If that's your angle, then fine. You're a genius, you know more about everything, in all areas, than anyone. You have all the answers and solutions, everyone else can just shut the fuck up. How frustrating for you, living in a world of morons, you poor thing.

    Your dick is bigger than mine, too! Now that's all settled. Cain is King. Nice derailment.


  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Well, well. I guess you just wanted a fight, some place to say how everyone is so stupid.
    So, now you're everyone?

    Maybe "everyone's" problem is her massive ego.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  22. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    So, now you're everyone?

    Maybe "everyone's" problem is her massive ego.
    Nah, but just about every post you've made lately is busy telling others how stupid / dumb / misinformed / wrong they are. If you want to dissect or discuss finreg, or business ethics, or other topics, then do so. If you just want to flame people and be a miserable SOB then go somewhere else.

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Nah, but just about every post you've made lately is busy telling others how stupid / dumb / misinformed / wrong they are. If you want to dissect or discuss finreg, or business ethics, or other topics, then do so.
    And pointing out that your knowledge base has some fundamental holes and misconceptions in it... is not doing that?

    Okie-dokie.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    If you just want to flame people and be a miserable SOB then go somewhere else.
    How about if all you want to do is spread misinformation and be a wrong SOB, you go somewhere else?

    Or at least give the same speech to Dreadnaught, who's also a miserable, flaming SOB trying to correct you.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  24. #84
    How about we go back to discussing Goldman, or the SEC, or maybe that report about Derivatives?

    I'm going to watch an interview with Blankfein on CNN right now. I hope he's asked why their firm should have a charter as a bank holding company, under the protective wing of the Fed and Treasury. And what kind of regulations the financial industry should have moving forward.


  25. #85
    Buffett strongly defends Goldman; Berkshire net up
    Warren Buffett on Saturday launched a strong defense of Berkshire Hathaway Inc's $5 billion investment in Goldman Sachs Group Inc and the investment bank's embattled chief executive, Lloyd Blankfein.

    Oh yeah... everything is fine, we only need to wait until the company disappears from the headlines... when it goes bankrupt?

    Emails show Goldman's Glengarry Glen Ross side
    In "Glengarry Glen Ross," Mamet depicted the aggressive and desperate sales tactics employed by a group of salesmen to push worthless Florida real estate on unsuspecting buyers.

    Goldmangate?
    Greece is in pain because of Goldman. Will we see charges from EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    How about we go back to discussing Goldman, or the SEC, or maybe that report about Derivatives?

    I'm going to watch an interview with Blankfein on CNN right now. I hope he's asked why their firm should have a charter as a bank holding company, under the protective wing of the Fed and Treasury. And what kind of regulations the financial industry should have moving forward.

    Regulating derivatives is about regulating bets.
    Toxic assets are money created out of thin air, with no real goods backing it up.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  26. #86
    INVESTMENT BANKING
    How Goldman Derivatives Amplified Crisis
    May 3, 2010, 8:53 AM

    The Senate investigation into Goldman Sachs offered concrete evidence last week of how defaults on subprime mortgage loans became so costly that they brought the financial system to its knees, The Wall Street Journal reported.

    After all, even at its height, subprime lending never represented more than a small percentage of the overall mortgage system — something more is needed to explain just why the fall was so drastic when it came.

    Documents released by the Senate investigation demonstrate that high-risk subprime mortgage bonds were effectively being replicated over and over again in the form of synthetic collateralized debt obligations.

    In one case, highlighted by The Wall Street Journal, a single $38 million subprime bond found its way into 30 debt pools, resulting in overall losses of $280 million to investors when the bond’s principal was lost.

    And that is why, in a Senate panel memo last week, Goldman was slammed for the replicating practice, which “magnified the impact of toxic mortgages.”

    Go to Article from the Wall Street Journal (Subscription Required) ยป
    Maybe someone will post the wsj article in full, I'm not going to register.

    http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/20...lified-crisis/

    There's also chatter that DoJ may file criminal charges.....

    There's a difference between hedging commodities and derivatives on an exchange, and the crap that's been moved OTC with synthetics that has no regulation or transparency.

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    There's a difference between hedging commodities and derivatives on an exchange, and the crap that's been moved OTC with synthetics that has no regulation or transparency.
    There is? And what difference is that?

    People/investors lost money because some binds went bad. It happens all the time.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  28. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    There is? And what difference is that?
    If you don't know, then read the link I already posted about OTC Derivatives and synthetics.

    People/investors lost money because some binds went bad. It happens all the time.
    A near collapse of the financial system doesn't happen all the time.

  29. #89
    The magnitude of the crisis is big when bets are big on small cases.
    Since many company assets are mostly bets, the crash is passed when those who bet lost their money or when those who handle bets must pay too much.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  30. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Maybe someone will post the wsj article in full, I'm not going to register.

    http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/20...lified-crisis/

    There's also chatter that DoJ may file criminal charges.....

    There's a difference between hedging commodities and derivatives on an exchange, and the crap that's been moved OTC with synthetics that has no regulation or transparency.
    That headline is a bad reading of the situation and the WSJ article (pasted below). The point is that the CDOs were traded on exchanges, which made people even more willing to buy them and use the insurance to buy more, all the while expecting them to get insurance payouts if the mortgages don't get paid.

    Frankly, it's only a few steps removed from the tech bubble, when companies went public with no revenues and no real business model, but investors simply looked at other similar stocks that were blowing up so they piled-in to the new IPOs.

    Where was the anger at nerdy rich techies in 2000 for taking companies public that had no business model? This was a bubble and it sucked people in, whether you were getting a mortgage you couldn't afford, or using insurance on said mortgages as "synthetic" collateral on more debt.


    LAWMAY 2, 2010
    Senate's Goldman Probe Shows Toxic Magnification

    By CARRICK MOLLENKAMP And SERENA NG

    Even at its peak, subprime lending accounted for a relatively small portion of overall mortgage lending. Yet losses from these mortgages caused deep damage to the financial system.

    Now, documents released by Senate investigators last week provide clues in understanding why the losses were so severe. The documents show how Wall Street banks packaged and repackaged the same risky bonds into securities that ultimately helped magnify the impact of defaulting subprime mortgages on the financial system.

    In one case, a $38 million subprime-mortgage bond created in June 2006 ended up in more than 30 debt pools and ultimately caused roughly $280 million in losses to investors by the time the bond's principal was wiped out in 2008, according to data reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.

    This was a central finding of the Senate investigative panel probing Goldman Sachs Group Inc.'s actions in the mortgage market. In a memo last week, panel Chairman Sen. Carl Levin (D., Mich.) said Goldman's work "magnified the impact of toxic mortgages" by replicating mortgage securities in debt pools known as collateralized debt obligations as well as CDO derivatives, and also in an index that tracks subprime bonds.

    The subprime mortgages that caused big losses generally were packaged into CDOs, in which dozens of mortgage-backed bonds were pooled together and slices of the CDOs were sold to investors. Another version of these CDOs didn't contain actual mortgage bonds but were linked to them via derivatives called credit-default swaps. Through the use of derivatives, banks created many of these synthetic CDOs using the same mortgage securities, all of which would rise or fall in value depending on how the mortgages were performing. With synthetic CDOs, those who had bet that the loans would perform well were on the hook if their performance deteriorated.

    In effect, the documents said, Wall Street was "copying and pasting" what turned out to be the worst-performing securities of the mortgage boom. Such activity helped multiply opportunities for hedge funds and traders who wanted to short the housing market, but magnified the losses of those on the other side of the trades. To short a trade, in this instance, is to bet the housing market will turn down.

    "There was a limited number of similar bonds," said Darrell Duffie, a finance professor and derivatives authority at Stanford University. "So they are likely to show up in multiple deals."

    A Goldman spokesman declined to comment.

    An important moment in the housing cycle came in January 2006, a year before the downturn of the housing market had crystallized. That month, a consortium of banks, including Goldman and Deutsche Bank AG, with the help of a London data firm, launched an index, known as the ABX, which served as a proxy for subprime loans.

    For the first time, banks and hedge funds had an indicator of the prices of subprime-mortgage securities, and a somewhat active market to buy and sell credit protection against housing-market losses. There were four ABX indexes, each tied to 20 subprime bonds, some of which reappeared in numerous CDOs.

    By late 2006, Goldman had a large bullish position on the ABX, because it had taken the other side of bearish bets by hedge-fund clients, according to the Senate documents. Subsequent deals would help reverse that position.

    One mortgage bond, Soundview Home Loan Trust 2006-OPT5 M8, was a component of the ABX and showed up in more than 30 CDOs.

    The Soundview deal in June 2006 bundled together roughly $3.1 billion in subprime home loans made by Option One Mortgage Corp. to 15,746 individuals across the country, with a high concentration in California and Florida, two states that were among the worst hit by the housing downturn. The securities from the deal were sold in slices with different credit ratings, interest rates and risk levels.

    One slice of the Soundview bonds, called "M8," began making its way through Wall Street. About $38 million of the "M8" bond was issued, and it stood to lose money if roughly 5% of the loans in the pool were wiped out by losses.

    In July 2006, the Soundview deal was picked by Wall Street banks to be one component of the ABX, and the Soundview M8 bond also was replicated in multiple CDOs. They included Hudson Mezzanine Funding 2006-1, a Goldman-arranged CDO, which took on a $15 million exposure to the Soundview M8 bond in late 2006, according to documents released last week by the Senate panel.

    Hudson represented Goldman's bearish view on housing. According to the Senate inquiry, Goldman used the CDO to protect itself against losses by the $2 billion of assets referenced in the pool. Among the assets was $1.2 billion in bullish bets on bonds underpinning the ABX indexes. Goldman was the buyer of protection from Hudson, meaning that the bank had a bearish position on the same bonds.

    The Soundview M8 bond appeared again in a CDO called Abacus 2007-AC1, the mortgage deal at the center of the Securities and Exchange Commission's civil-fraud lawsuit against Goldman. That CDO, which closed in April 2007, had a $22.2 million bullish position on the Soundview bond. Goldman has denied any wrongdoing in the case.

    Some Goldman employees appeared to be aware that the Soundview M8 bond was shaky by early 2007. In an April 2007 email, a Goldman employee included it in a list of what he called "dirty '06 originations," referring to the period in which lending standards loosened. By that time, about 8% of the loans in the Soundview pool already were at least 60 days past due.

    In July 2007, Mizuho International PLC, a unit of Japan's Mizuho Financial Group Inc. and seeking to break into the CDO business, included the Soundview bond in a CDO called Delphinus CDO 2007-1. That CDO had a $13 million exposure to the Soundview M8 bond, according to documents reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.

    In all, more than $280 million of bullish positions on the Soundview M8 bond were in at least 30 CDOs underwritten by various banks, according to data reviewed by the Journal. As defaults among the subprime loans backing the deal mounted in 2007, the M8 bond's value fell. Its entire $38 million face amount eventually was wiped out.

    Anthony Sanders, a real-estate finance professor and authority in securitization at George Mason University in Fairfax, Va., said the problem was that the same mortgage bonds ended up in many deals, potentially multiplying the losses.

    "Serious problems with common [asset-backed securities] deals can decimate all CDO deals," Mr. Sanders said.



    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...651236446.html

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