The far right has been on the rise in Euro-land for some years now
The far right has been on the rise in Euro-land for some years now
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
@ those who say laws like this are counterproductive:
Given the Turkish example you mean? When they outlawed the veil there in pretty much all public buildings and as garb for people employed by the state they went down from 100% observance to somewhere around zero, with 55% opting for headcovers that don't cover the face. I say that blanket statements that 'this doesn't work' pretty much are disproven by that experience.
Congratulations America
I was actually making a serious point. More effort should be put into reinforcing that not wearing a covering doesn't make you an impious whore.Originally Posted by Nessus
This law is arguably more comprehensive —*it makes it illegal anywhere in public. But given the relative increase in religious sentiment in Turkey, do you really think it's the best example? The people enforcing the ban have apparently become a crusty old elite.
Yes, it is a great example still, a law introduced in order to end total control of religion over daily life had the desired effect. Women became free to go out of the house, they became free to do so without covering themselves from head to toe. What you and the people of similar convictions don't understand that there is actually repression going on to get (most of) these women to cover up. When you ask for freedom of religion what you are really asking for is the freedom of some people to repress other people.
Congratulations America
Hazir, you're confusing cause for effect. The burqas don't cause the women to act the way they do; the latter is a consequence of the way they've already been taught to act. Removing a symptom of the social domination isn't going to have any effect on its root causes. All this does is inflame the situation on both sides, while doing absolutely nothing to resolve those underlying issues.
Last edited by Loki; 05-02-2010 at 02:13 AM.
Hope is the denial of reality
edit - loki already mainly addressed this but repressing one activity (presumably for millions, if anyone wants to cover their face) in order to prevent a crime (religious subjugation of women, which in belgium affects how many women, exactly?) is probably not the best way to go about things. Better would be to tackle the actual problem, no?
"Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.
According to a story I've read, there are only 30 women in Belgium (though another states that this is for Brussels only) that actually wear burqas.
Hope is the denial of reality
Well, there was that Facebook event last week to show boobs don't cause earthquakes
I guess
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Is that because they all go over the border to the Netherlands to make money hooking?
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
They outlawed women in Belgium around early 1946 because they found so many of them had slept with Nazis. Some free-range women still exist in the rolling, woody hills, living on berries and discarded McDonald's meals. The males learnt to reproduce asexually in 1954, when dr. Rheinstadt found the so-called double-deep reverse cowboy that makes both males pregnant, for some reason, with their own identical clones. There haven't been any new Belgians in decades, it really is quite fascinating.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Do you happen to know what Belgium's laws on the trapping and export of the local wildlife are?
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
I'm sure hunting un-persons is a-okay!
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I do see what you mean, and that's what I used to think when I first saw bills like this proposed. I do understand there is repression going on. But it's not clear to me that this kind of law will generate a backlash. EG mass civil disobedience. Masses of veiled women in Bruges getting arrested just for being veiled. Don't you see how images of that can just lead to more radicalism?
The francophone part of the country is very anti-clerical.
The dutch part of the country has only recently liberated itself from religious control.
Neither parts want to see another dipshit religion gaining too much control.
the idea is simple: "We have not spared the priest, neither shall we spare the imam."
they're welcome to try... and find out how fast our welcoming ways run out.
Btw, there not too much muslims in Brugge anyways. Most of them are in Brussels and Antwerp.
If you come here you adapt to local customs. Be muslim all you like but you do not get to throw gays of buildings, you do not get to kill girls for dating who they want and you do not get to wear tents. If you want to do these things then Belgium probably is not for you and you should stay in the Middle East or some other shitty place.
You're only right to an extent. What you are forgetting that a lot of these extremist can only afford their extremism because they are dependent on hand-outs by the state. As far as I am concerned the state doesn't only have the right but even the duty to lean on them with all its force. They may be 'enraged' but that doesn't mean they want to go hungry and homeless.
Congratulations America
Yes, that all sounds good and well except that Muslims are a rapidly growing portion of your population.
So the question is whether, by trying to assimilate people, you actually highlight why they are different and make them less willing to be a part of your culture.
They can go back to their Sharia law shit-holes if our oppressive, liberal-humanist values offend their delicate child-raping deities so much
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I have little sympathy for this type of cultural relativism in our own house. I don't want inequality for women to be part of our culture. I don't want our society or states accomodate people who force women to cover themselves up.
Congratulations America
It's not about the state "accommodating" anything, as much as avoiding polarizing actions that could actually get veiled women on the side of the abusers instead of breaking free.
Once again, imagine masses of veiled women in Bruges getting arrested just for being veiled. Don't you see how images of that can just lead to more radicalism?
Why are you for using the threat of violence against Chink aggression, but want to bend over to the desires of the "radicalist" elements in Euro-land?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I wonder where those masses should come from.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Why not ban Roman togas?
Hope is the denial of reality
Depending on how Belushi you go, they're probably covered by decency lawsAlternative punchline; when's the last time rioting Romans caused havok in France and Sveden? Before 1000 AD? I thought you didn't like redundant bureaucracy!
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Besides which, Roman toga's don't cover the face, nor are they worn by women who are forced to wear them.Depending on how Belushi you go, they're probably covered by decency laws
Congratulations America
You still don't understand the reality in Europe. These people on average do not provide for a living for themselves. Their threaths of resistance are utterly hollow.
A ban on headscarves in Antwerp caused a lot of protests before it was implemented. After it was implemented, pretty much all that happened was that girls no longer wore headscarves at school.
Last edited by Hazir; 05-04-2010 at 04:01 PM.
Congratulations America
Hazir, who are "these people", exactly? Do you mean women, immigrants, or Muslims?
This particular group of immigrants plus their hangers-on. The kind that comes here from Egypt, can't stand the fact that he's got to take orders from a female, quits his job for this reason and then thinks he's entitled to get unemployment benefits.
I didn't think so, neither did the courts that got involved later on.
Congratulations America
Then it sounds like you want/need to change your immigration policies. Not dress codes.
I mean, if you're going to ban something women wear that's "restrictive", why not ban the bra? Or spandex?
Ban all clothing, damn it.
We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.
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