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Thread: SEC sues Goldman Sachs for fraud

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    That headline is a bad reading of the situation and the WSJ article (pasted below). The point is that the CDOs were traded on exchanges, which made people even more willing to buy them and use the insurance to buy more, all the while expecting them to get insurance payouts if the mortgages don't get paid.
    Where does it say they were traded on exchanges?

    If anything encouraged their buys and trades, it was being rated investment grade by Moody's or S & P.

    Frankly, it's only a few steps removed from the tech bubble, when companies went public with no revenues and no real business model, but investors simply looked at other similar stocks that were blowing up so they piled-in to the new IPOs.

    Where was the anger at nerdy rich techies in 2000 for taking companies public that had no business model? This was a bubble and it sucked people in, whether you were getting a mortgage you couldn't afford, or using insurance on said mortgages as "synthetic" collateral on more debt.
    There was anger at the bubble then, that whole irrational exuberance. (I wasn't posting in forums then, tho.) The problem with these "instruments" is their unlimited number, in exponential growth. Homes and mortgages are limited and contained, the derivatives aren't...not when they morph into synthetics, which don't even contain real assets---just hedges.



    Edit to add---http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40965.pdf

    I've linked this before somewhere (AIG thread?) and why I keep harping on OTC.

    Because there is no universal, mandatory system of margin, large uncollateralized losses can
    build up in the OTC market. The best-known example in the crisis was AIG, which wrote about
    $1.8 trillion worth of credit default swaps guaranteeing payment if certain mortgage-backed
    securities defaulted or experienced other “credit events.”9

    Many of AIG’s contracts did require it to post collateral as the credit quality of the underlying securities (or AIG’s own credit rating) deteriorated, but AIG did not post initial margin, as this was deemed unnecessary because of the firm’s triple-A rating. As the subprime crisis worsened, AIG was subjected to margin calls that it could not meet. To avert bankruptcy, with the risk of global financial chaos, the Federal Reserve
    and the Treasury put tens of billions of dollars into AIG, the bulk of which went to its derivatives
    counterparties.10
    Last edited by GGT; 05-04-2010 at 02:02 AM.

  2. #92
    An important moment in the housing cycle came in January 2006, a year before the downturn of the housing market had crystallized. That month, a consortium of banks, including Goldman and Deutsche Bank AG, with the help of a London data firm, launched an index, known as the ABX, which served as a proxy for subprime loans.

    For the first time, banks and hedge funds had an indicator of the prices of subprime-mortgage securities, and a somewhat active market to buy and sell credit protection against housing-market losses. There were four ABX indexes, each tied to 20 subprime bonds, some of which reappeared in numerous CDOs.
    Similar to an ETF for this stuff. Just like the stocks of the tech bubble, no amount of transparency would have stopped this. It was simple lunacy/blindness that gathered steam.

    Tell me, after 2000 were people angrily calling for the stringent regulation of Silicon Valley? For tech startups to lose freedom to operate because they were potential sources of market contagion?

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Tell me, after 2000 were people angrily calling for the stringent regulation of Silicon Valley? For tech startups to lose freedom to operate because they were potential sources of market contagion?
    Probably. Then, just as now, all kinds of idiots who don't know shit were throwing around all kinds of retarded ideas because they couldn't handle that they jumped on board the latest bubble and lost lots of money when it burst.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  4. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Similar to an ETF for this stuff. Just like the stocks of the tech bubble, no amount of transparency would have stopped this. It was simple lunacy/blindness that gathered steam.

    Tell me, after 2000 were people angrily calling for the stringent regulation of Silicon Valley? For tech startups to lose freedom to operate because they were potential sources of market contagion?
    An index is not an exchange. Besides, the tech bubble happened in public for everyone to see, not over-the-counter.

    You didn't look at the report, did you? It has a section describing the structures with a chart. Why do you suppose there are senators proposing to get these things on an exchange? Because they're currently not. And people like Buffet are worried about existing contracts and end-users, even though he's called them WMD that need regulation.

  5. #95
    You can't put everything on an exchange, it doesn't work that way.

    The reason Senators are saying we should put things on an exchange is because they think exchanges promote some kind of transparency. They are wrong. Exchanges promote liquidity by making for a convenient place to buy/sell similar stuff. An exchange for mortgage packages and insurance on mortgage packages is useless —*it just makes it easier to buy/sell 'em, doesn't really change the underlying dynamics.

    In short, the Senators are using a buzzword that's also cropping up in other industries.

  6. #96
    Then we can agree to disagree. It's not just a buzzword. I think these things need to be out in the open, on an exchange of some sort.

    Name any other thing worth ~400 TRILLION that is conducted behind closed doors and can take down the whole financial system left unchecked. Even Blankfein agrees something is needed to help reign in the mess.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Name any other thing worth ~400 TRILLION that is conducted behind closed doors and can take down the whole financial system left unchecked.
    The Federal government.

    Got any other obvious questions I can answer for you?
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  8. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Then we can agree to disagree. It's not just a buzzword. I think these things need to be out in the open, on an exchange of some sort.
    Exchanges don't put transactions out in the open. And indexes help make values more public. All an exchange does is makes things more liquid, so you can better find a buyer/seller and have a faster sense of when to sell out if things go bust.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Name any other thing worth ~400 TRILLION that is conducted behind closed doors and can take down the whole financial system left unchecked. Even Blankfein agrees something is needed to help reign in the mess.
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    The Federal government.

    Got any other obvious questions I can answer for you?
    Oh man, that's a good one.

  9. #99
    Source

    Comment:
    Goldman is not a market maker but merely a money transfer machine. Not only is there no social value in weakening or destroying take over targets, but wealth “creation” in the form of merely transferring money away from others is not creating anything, but instead is destroying the underlying economy.

    Comment:
    If Goldman merely was bringing a buyer and seller together, there would be no problem.
    Goldman did not merely act as a market maker. These financial instruments were designed by Paulson to fail and Goldman peddled these instruments while failing to disclose the very central role of Paulson in designing the CDO to fail. That is failure to disclose a very material fact and therefore it is fraud. A jury is likely to agree.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Exchanges don't put transactions out in the open. And indexes help make values more public. All an exchange does is makes things more liquid, so you can better find a buyer/seller and have a faster sense of when to sell out if things go bust.
    The NYSE and CME might disagree with your characterization of an exchange or clearing house. It's more than just providing liquidity and speed of transaction or finding trading partners. Why do you bother to follow the Dow or S & P if you could just watch the VIX?

    Something tells me you're mixing terms, since the "exchange" idea was floated for selling interstate health insurance to private buyers.

  11. #101
    Yes, the reason people like exchanges to sell insurance across state lines is that exchanges increase liquidity. A key idea against the health bill was that we were tackling the wrong problem — if we made insurance portable and purchasable across state lines, competition would increase and prices would fall. But it's not like the actual terms of said insurance plans would less decipherable overnight.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    But it's not like the actual terms of said insurance plans would less decipherable overnight.
    Say what you want; I still maintain that throwing people in jail for not buying health insurance is more despicable than even the terms of the worst HMO coverage. <shudder>
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  13. #103
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...915383146.html
    ]OPINION MAY 6, 2010

    Derivatives Clearinghouses Are No Magic Bullet


    Will the Dodd bill create another kind of institution that's too big to fail?
    By MARK J. ROE

    As the Senate finalizes its financial reform legislation, a consensus is developing that if we could just get derivatives traded through a centralized clearinghouse we could avoid a financial crisis like the one we just went through. This is false. Clearinghouses provide efficiencies in transparency and trading, but they are no cure-all. They can even exacerbate problems in a financial crisis.

    If I agree to sell you a product next month through a clearinghouse, I'll deliver the product to the clearinghouse and you'll deliver the cash to the clearinghouse on the due date. Let's say we both have many trades going through the clearinghouse and we've posted collateral to cover any single trade that fails. This is more efficient than each of us posting collateral privately for each trade. Moreover, we're not worried that I won't deliver or you won't pay because we both count on the clearinghouse to deliver and pay up if one of us doesn't.

    This clearing system makes trading more efficient. If you default, the cost is spread through the clearinghouse so I don't get hurt severely. And if the clearinghouse has enough collateral from you, there's no loss to spread. But there's also a potential downside: The clearinghouse reduces our incentives to worry about counterparty risk. Your business might collapse before you need to pay up, but that's not my problem because the clearinghouse pays me anyway. The clearinghouse weakens private market discipline.

    Still, if the clearinghouse is as good or better at checking up on your creditworthiness as I am, all will be well. But one has to wonder how good a clearinghouse will be, or can be.

    Consider two of our biggest derivatives-related failures—Long-Term Capital Management in 1998 and the subprime market in 2008. When Russia's ruble dropped unexpectedly, LTCM was exposed on its more than $1 trillion in interest-rate and foreign-exchange derivatives. It could not pay up and collapsed. Ten years later the market rapidly revalued subprime mortgage securities, rendering several institutions insolvent. AIG was over-exposed in credit default swaps tied to the value of subprime mortgages.

    Could a clearinghouse really have been ahead of the curve in getting sufficient capital posted before these problems became serious and well-known? I'm not so sure. Worse yet, major types of derivatives have built-in discontinuities—"jump-to-default" in derivatives-speak.

    For a credit default swap, one counterparty guarantees the debt of another company to you, in return for you paying a fee for that guarantee. If no one goes bankrupt, the counterparty just collects the fees from you. But if the guarantee is called because the company you were worried about goes bankrupt, the counterparty must all of a sudden pay out a huge amount immediately.

    Yet the guarantor is often called upon to pay in a weak economy, just when it can itself be too weak to pay. You get credit default protection on your real-estate investments from me, just in case the economy turns sour. But just when you need me the most, in a sour economy, I turn out to be so overextended I can't pay up. Collateralizing and monitoring such discontinuous obligations will not be so easy for the clearinghouse.

    Moreover, if trillions of dollars of derivatives trading goes through a clearinghouse, we will have created another institution that's too big to fail. Regulators worried that an interconnected Bear or AIG could drag down the economy. Imagine what an interconnected clearinghouse's failure could do.

    AIG needed $85 billion in government cash to avoid defaulting on its debts, including its derivatives obligations. Could one clearinghouse meet even a fraction of that call without backup from the U.S.? True, we could have many clearinghouses, each not too big to fail—but then maybe each would be too small to do enough good.

    The Senate bill would allow a clearinghouse to grab new collateral out from failing derivatives-trading banks to cover old, but suddenly toxic, debts the banks owe to the clearinghouse. This could harm other creditors and cause the firm to suffer a run. Nevertheless, to protect itself in a declining market, a clearinghouse would have to make those big collateral calls. That's good if it protects the clearinghouse. But it's bad if it starts a run on a weakened but important bank.

    One key but missing element in the search for reform has yet to gain traction in Washington. Derivatives players obtained exceptions from typical bankruptcy and bank resolution rules in the past few decades for their contracts with a bankrupt counterparty. This allowed them to grab and keep collateral other creditors cannot. That gives derivatives traders reason to pay less attention to their counterparties' riskiness and weakens market discipline. These rules should be changed before the Senate is done.

    To say that a clearinghouse solution is very incomplete is not to say there is an easy solution out there. We may be unable to do more than to make incomplete improvements and muddle through.

    Derivatives trades first of all should not just be centrally cleared, but should also be taken out from the government-guaranteed entities, such as commercial banks (or at least we need to impose tight capital requirements on those banks that deal in derivatives). Derivatives traders like doing business with Citibank because they know the government won't let Citibank go down. But this puts taxpayers at risk. It would be better to run those trades through an affiliate, not through the bank, so counterparties realize they might not be bailed out if the affiliate failed. If a banking affiliate's counterparty is the clearinghouse, then the clearinghouse will have incentives to make sure that the affiliate is well-capitalized. This is particularly so if the clearinghouse won't get any special priority treatment in a bankruptcy.

    Critics of proposals to establish separate bank affiliates for derivatives trading complain about the large amount of capital that would be needed for such affiliates. But the capital that might be needed to buttress a bank affiliate indicates some level of the value (i.e., the taxpayer subsidy) to derivatives players of trading with a too-big-to-fail entity that they know the government will step in to save. They are implicitly getting insurance and should pay for it.

    And, since a clearinghouse is itself at risk of being too big to fail, regulators need to police its capital and collateral requirements. If the derivatives market sees the clearinghouse as too big to fail, the potential for derivatives players making overly risky derivatives trades becomes real. Clearinghouses can help manage some systemic risk if they're run right. If not, they can become the Fannie and Freddie of the next financial meltdown.

    Mr. Roe is a professor at Harvard Law School, where he teaches bankruptcy and corporate law.

  14. #104
    Great article there Dread, thanks.

    So choose then, between an exchange or clearing house, or separating investment bankers from commercial or retail bankers. Only one can have the safety of FDIC (or the Fed) but not both. Reinstitute Glass-Steagall. Or discuss the Volcker rule. Hell, talk about what a proprietary trading desk means, because even the bankers and financiers can't agree.

  15. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    So, now you're everyone?

    Maybe "everyone's" problem is her massive ego.
    CC accused GG of having a massive ego.
    The Rules
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    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
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  16. #106
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    I think that kinda says it all...
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  17. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    CC accused GG of having a massive ego.
    It's ok, it's his MO.

    I tried watching the senate hearings on CSPAN2 last night, with Hank baby trying to explain "the crisis", why Bear was saved but not Lehman, the conflicting goals of fannie/freddie/HUD, systemic risks by investment and commercial banks. But I fell asleep. Then Timmy's voice woke me up. Might be a cure for my insomnia....

  18. #108
    DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

    Moody's Corp. (MCO) said late Friday that it received a Wells notice from the Securities and Exchange Commission in March alleging that it had made "false and misleading" statements submitted as part of an application to register as a nationally recognized statistical rating organization in 2008.

    That registration is a stamp of approval that the SEC grants ratings agencies that allows them to conduct business.

    Moody's, parent of Moody's Investors Service, said it disputes that allegation, arguing that one incident in which employees were accused of violating its standards of professional conduct doesn't make those standards "false and misleading."

    In a statement Friday, Moody's said the Wells notice, which is an official notification from the SEC that a company is being investigated, relates to an issue it disclosed in 2008, when members of one European constant proportion debt obligations monitoring committee may have violated its code of professional conduct. "At the time, we reported the incident to regulators and initiated disciplinary proceedings against these employees, including terminations."

    A Moody's spokesman added, "We have responded to all the requests on the matter by the SEC staff and will continue to do so."

    Moody's is one of the three major rating agencies, along with Standard & Poor's and Fitch, that have been the target of criticism for missing risks, and giving top ratings to assets that ultimately collapsed in value. In July 2008, Moody's acknowledged that it had an error in the way it rated constant proportion debt obligations, or CPDOs, that would have lowered AAA ratings given to the 11 CPDOs to AA territory--or a reduction of one to three notches. But this didn't take into account "qualitative factors" that Moody's committees also consider in the firm's ratings.

    Moody's found that some members of its CPDO monitoring committee in Europe considered factors other than credit--namely whether changing the rating would be embarrassing to Moody's or affect another market participant.

    As part of the investigation, Moody's announced that an executive overseeing the division, Noel Kirnon, was leaving the firm following an internal investigation by law firm Sullivan & Cromwell LLP that began in May 2008 and focused on the CPDO error. Other people who worked for Kirnon also left after the internal investigation.

    Moody's shares fell 1% to $23.12 in after-hours trading.
    Oh look! Investigations into a ratings agency! aka GGT making a mountain out of a mole hill, and being stupid.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...atestheadlines


    edit: oops, I meant to put this in the Greece thread, but whatever....it's all connected.

  19. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Oh look! Investigations into a ratings agency! aka GGT making a mountain out of a mole hill, and being stupid.
    Oh look! Still the same conflict of interest everyone already tried to clue you into!
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  20. #110
    alleging that it had made "false and misleading" statements submitted as part of an application to register as a nationally recognized statistical rating organization in 2008.
    Say what?

  21. #111
    Moody's, parent of Moody's Investors Service, said it disputes that allegation, arguing that one incident in which employees were accused of violating its standards of professional conduct doesn't make those standards "false and misleading."
    Funny how individuals in corporations enjoy autonomy except for when the corporation needs a scapegoat. Seriously, standards of professional conduct are worthless if an application like this doesn't get reviewed by the top.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  22. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Funny how individuals in corporations enjoy autonomy except for when the corporation needs a scapegoat.
    Funny how government employees enjoy legislated immunity from the direct consequences of even negligent and/or malicious action.

    The government (at every level) is far, far, far, worse in this regard than even the worst corporations out there.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  23. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Say what?
    Moody's and McGraw-Hill (isn't that owned by Buffet's Berkshire Hathaway?) have received Wells notices from SEC as part of investigating their continued status as an NSRO. The joke is---would Moody's downgrade itself?

  24. #114
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  25. #115
    <waits for Loki to pop in and demonize Soros>

    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
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  26. #116
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    Does it have to be Loki?

    Because I'm pretty well versed on why Soros is the richest asshat you'll ever read about.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  27. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Does it have to be Loki?
    Well, he much more effectively pretends to know about international finance and economics than you do. Actually, do you pretend at all to know any of that stuff?

    Because I'm pretty well versed on why Soros is the richest asshat you'll ever read about.
    I don't know much about him outside a few interviews where he was talking about the ways the current finance markets are disfunctional and ways to fix them. Seemed like a smart, and nice, guy to me. <shrug>
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  28. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Well, he much more effectively pretends to know about international finance and economics than you do. Actually, do you pretend at all to know any of that stuff?
    Just at the basic "one of my degrees is through the college of business" level.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I don't know much about him outside a few interviews where he was talking about the ways the current finance markets are disfunctional and ways to fix them. Seemed like a smart, and nice, guy to me. <shrug>
    Well, he's also [very] slightly to the right of Stalin, and in addition to being ironic, I find that makes it impossible to take him seriously as a human being, let alone as a purveyor of worthwhile advice.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  29. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Well, he's also [very] slightly to the right of Stalin, and in addition to being ironic, I find that makes it impossible to take him seriously as a human being, let alone as a purveyor of worthwhile advice.
    Sounds like the demonization has begun. I guess it doesn't have to be Loki. (Maybe he doesn't do that anymore - he has been changing).
    .
    .
    .

    .
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  30. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Sounds like the demonization has begun.
    Oh? That's basically all I care to say about the guy, and it comes from his own mouth these past few election cycles. If he doesn't want to be labeled as a closet commie, I wouldn't think it would be so hard to stop speaking like one.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

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