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Thread: UK Election: 6 May 2010

  1. #211
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    What I don't quite understand is how Cameron immediately can claim the office of PM if there is a hung parliament. It seems getting things a bit backwards to first become PM and only then start negotiating with parliament about confidence. At least that's what I distill from 'angry Tories' about 'Brown clinging to power after losing the elections'.

    I wouldn't know how else you could have a transfer of power in an orderly way without returning to some archaic state where you don't have a government beyond the monarch.

    Like this

    1. hung parliament
    2. parties decide to form a coalition or express their consent to a minority government
    3. Brown resigns (unless of course it's Lab-Lib)
    4. Queen appoints new PM on Brown's resignation.
    Congratulations America

  2. #212
    http://www.voterpower.org.uk/

    Apparently, my vote is worth 0.2 votes. Democracy!
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    http://www.voterpower.org.uk/

    Apparently, my vote is worth 0.2 votes. Democracy!
    Yet Randblade thinks there is nothing better than a system that let's a minority party govern with absolute powers.
    Congratulations America

  4. #214
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    Hey, I just found out Nick Clegg speaks Dutch, not flawless but without an accent and quite fluently.
    Congratulations America

  5. #215
    No, but Hazir, right

    FPTP gives you decisive results

    do you understand

    decisive
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    No, but Hazir, right

    FPTP gives you decisive results

    do you understand

    decisive
    Must feel good to be as deep in the hole as you are because of decisive government.
    Congratulations America

  7. #217
    yeah
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  8. #218
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    Our indecisive coalition government merely got us a 5,3% budget deficit
    Congratulations America

  9. #219
    rubbish

    disenfranchise more people for more decisive government
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    rubbish

    disenfranchise more people for more decisive government
    Hey, and after all, Isn't Hitler the best argument against PR ?
    Congratulations America

  11. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    What I don't quite understand is how Cameron immediately can claim the office of PM if there is a hung parliament. It seems getting things a bit backwards to first become PM and only then start negotiating with parliament about confidence. At least that's what I distill from 'angry Tories' about 'Brown clinging to power after losing the elections'.
    That's not true, Cameron can not immediately claim power if there's a hung Parliament. Only way that he can virtually automatically claim power is from winning an outright majority, even then technically Brown needs to resign.

    Brown is and remains PM until he either resigns or is defeated in a confidence motion by the new Parliament. In a Hung Parliament situation then, Brown at first remains PM if he chooses even if his party comes third in votes and second in seats. Once Brown resigns, then the Queen will by tradition pick the leader of the largest party to then attempt to form a new government (thus Cameron). If Cameron fails, then other people can see if they can form an effective government.
    I wouldn't know how else you could have a transfer of power in an orderly way without returning to some archaic state where you don't have a government beyond the monarch.

    Like this

    1. hung parliament
    2. parties decide to form a coalition or express their consent to a minority government
    3. Brown resigns (unless of course it's Lab-Lib)
    4. Queen appoints new PM on Brown's resignation.
    That'd be the procedure we have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Yet Randblade thinks there is nothing better than a system that let's a minority party govern with absolute powers.
    It may not be the ideal system, but its the best.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Our indecisive coalition government merely got us a 5,3% budget deficit
    The crappiness of a nations government has very little to do with the electoral system used. Greece uses PR but I never chose to argue that therefore ours much be better as PR = Greece
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint
    Apparently, my vote is worth 0.2 votes. Democracy!
    Mine is worth 0.044 apparently! Told you, mine is very safe Labour. However that metric is complete bullshit. The most marginal seat in the country (majority 17) has a 'power' ranking of 0.888 - yeah right

    Would have been sensible if the average had been 1 and then rated some up and some down but that doesn't happen, its completely dishonest nonsense. My vote can only be worth 0.044 if someone elses vote is worth 22.72 - please tell me which constituency has someone's vote worth that.

  12. #222
    Because it also factors in population size.
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  13. #223
    So, find me the constituency with 1.956 votes per person as opposed to my 0.044 ... Or if you have 0.2 of a vote, where's the rest of your vote gone? Who has 1.8 votes? Or five votes depending upon how you want to work it out.

  14. #224
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Instead of cutting taxes, you could just cut benefits.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Chapman @ Reason
    How Starving Government Still Gets Fat
    Tax cuts aren't enough. We need to reduce the size and scope of government.

    Sarah Palin may hunt moose with a rifle, but when she's out for bigger game, she relies on an unorthodox approach to bring down her quarry: Deprive it of food. "Please, starve the beast!" she recently implored a Tea Party Express rally in Boston.

    The critter in question is the federal government, which has been expanding like an oil spill in recent years. Palin's idea, a favorite among small-government advocates, is that the best way to shrink Washington is a permanent regimen of low taxes.

    The theory is worth assessing as the president's debt commission grapples with ways to stop the gusher of red ink in Washington. It traces back to President Ronald Reagan.

    "We can lecture our children about extravagance until we run out of voice and breath," he said in 1981. "Or we can cure their extravagance by simply reducing their allowance." With that in mind, he pushed through cuts in federal income tax rates.

    What he neglected to consider is how much kids would curb their consumption if they could circumvent that restriction with Dad's credit card. Under Reagan, spending rose 22 percent (adjusted for inflation) and the government debt tripled. But Republicans have stuck to the strategy ever since.

    When they began, this approach seemed worth a try. But 30 years later, confirmation is hard to find. Like Reagan, George W. Bush reduced income tax rates. In spite of that, inflation-adjusted federal outlays this year are 60 percent higher than they were the year Bush became president.

    Advocates could write off this experience as a fluke or claim that without tax cuts, Big Government would be Ginormous Government. But new studies from economists at opposite ends of the political spectrum leave little doubt that even on half-rations, the beast never fails to feast.

    The first documentation of this phenomenon came from the most unlikely source—William Niskanen, who chaired the president's Council of Economic Advisers under … Ronald Reagan. In 2006, he examined the evidence and mournfully admitted that "starve the beast just does not work."

    Last year, University of California, Berkeley economists Christina Romer (now head of President Barack Obama's Council of Economic Advisers) and David Romer undertook an even more extensive review of the data and came to a similar conclusion.

    "Following long-run tax cuts, government spending does not fall," they wrote in the Brookings Papers on Economic Activity. "Indeed, if anything, spending rises." In time, "tax cuts tend to lead to tax increases."

    Tea partiers will not put much stock in the findings of scholars who hang out in notorious outposts of the counter-culture or in the Obama White House (assuming the two are not the same thing). They may find it harder to ignore University of Alabama political scientist Michael New, an adjunct scholar of the libertarian Cato Institute in Washington.

    Writing in the Cato Journal, he reports that "federal expenditures grow faster when revenues are relatively low." Even nondefense discretionary spending—which excludes military costs and fast-growing entitlements—experiences a growth spurt when taxes are cut, according to New.

    This really shouldn't be surprising. In the first place, cutting taxes doesn't deprive the government of funds as long as it can tap the credit markets on a vast scale. Locking up the ice cream does no good if there's an endless supply of burgers and fries.

    In the second place, cutting taxes instead of spending is seductively pleasant. It lets citizens enjoy more government services at no extra cost on April 15.


    Forced to pay for everything they get, right away, Americans would undoubtedly choose to make do with less. But given the opportunity to party now and pay later—or never, if the tab can be billed to the next generation—they find no compelling reason to do without.

    Think of it this way. If you want people to consume more of something, you reduce the price. If you want them to consume less, you raise the price. For most of the last 30 years, federal programs have been on sale, and they've found lots of buyers.

    That's how the low-tax strategy has worked in practice. So if we are going to reduce the size of the federal government, we can't rely on starving the beast. We will have to tackle it and wrestle it to the mat.
    Things could work out differently in the UK, where effective tax rates are obscene... but even then, a lot of that is due to the fact that working cuts into the free-ride yous guys get from the gov't. Looks like Loki might be <gasp> correct - cutting benefits is the only way to reign in government spending (and good luck with that).
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  15. #225
    But we're already committed to (shock, horror) cutting spending. So between just cutting spending, or cutting spending and cutting taxes - why not do both?

  16. #226
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Well, A) political promises are only occasionally worth the air they're uttered into, particularly when it comes to cutting benefits and B) even cutting spending leaves you guys with a huge debt and deficit. Might wanna get that under control before cutting taxes.

    Or, keep up the developed world's policy of selling their children in slavery. Both approaches have their charms.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  17. #227
    C) Do both, cut wasteful spending, cut taxes, balance the budget.

    Like the Tories did last time Labour destroyed our economy.

  18. #228
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    And how are you going to do that with a 12% budget deficit as we speak? Greeks may be having a sense of entitlement that isn't quite justified, but I don't think Brits are any better. To me it seems that the walls will come crashing down for a Conservative government that tries to implement any type of austerity plan (which is needed).
    Congratulations America

  19. #229
    And for the most puerile reason to vote for a party, winner is The Sun: http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scot...ole-queue.html

    NSFW (includes topless imagery)

  20. #230
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Factually wrong too. Ship those 16 my way, and I'll find something for them to do, while paying for their room and board. No government aid required, and it's probably best if the government just stays away from my new Harem of British chicks altogether.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  21. #231
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    I really imagine the average Sun reader to be as stupid as to vote for a party that might as well have been from a different universe as far as common interests are concerned.
    Congratulations America

  22. #232
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    So... that's a "yes" to Sun readers voting for my idea, or...?
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  23. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    It may not be the ideal system, but its the best.
    No.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  24. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    So... that's a "yes" to Sun readers voting for my idea, or...?
    Probably, because they couldn't afford to buy a newspaper any longer. And that would put these girls out of a job (well, out of a tabloid publishing pictures of them showing their tits) .
    Congratulations America

  25. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Does that graph support what you were implying though? Yes, it shows that with both too little and too much taxation you get reduced revenue, but the article (yeah it was wiki, shhh) seemed to be pretty definite on that less taxation to a point is related to increased productivity and therefore increased revenue.

    Edit - i just realised that maybe you were saying exactly that the laffer curve is pure bs. Since my knowledge of taxation and indeed economics is paltry, this may be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    No, but Hazir, right

    FPTP gives you decisive results

    do you understand

    decisive
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    rubbish

    disenfranchise more people for more decisive government
    Its not really disenfranchising though, right? You still get your vote and it still counts. If you dont win in your area thats just hard luck. Maybe campaign more for your favoured party next time or whatever. Obviously the winner of the vote is the choice of the majority in your area, so he/she should represent them in government.

    It might be more representative to have 300 minor parties in government, but they will all have to band together and give up big chunks of their (i.e, your) desired policies if they are going to get anything through anyway, so really how representative they will actually be (aside from numbers) seems relatively debatable.

    Then again, you never said you favour proportional representation. What do you think is the best way? Ive seen a few other examples, but since idont have any direct experience of them in action i have found it hard to judge.
    "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.

  26. #236
    You still get your vote and it still counts.
    No, it doesn't.

    I live in a safe Labour seat and whatever I put on the ballot paper tomorrow will make precisely no difference to the outcome of the election. I could read each manifesto carefully, weight up all the options and make a considered decision or I could draw a penis, the outcome would be exactly the same.

    Then again, you never said you favour proportional representation.
    If I had to pick between proportional representation and our current system, I'd chose PR. It has many flaws, but it's preferable to a system where some many people's votes mean nothing. If someone could come up with a FPTP system which didn't mean most people don't actually get a say in who governs, I'd probably support that.
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  27. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    No, it doesn't.

    I live in a safe Labour seat and whatever I put on the ballot paper tomorrow will make precisely no difference to the outcome of the election. I could read each manifesto carefully, weight up all the options and make a considered decision or I could draw a penis, the outcome would be exactly the same.
    Theres always the chance that the majority of people in your constituency can be persuaded to vote for someone else.

    Just because you dont win doesnt mean your vote doesnt matter. Thats why they have campaigns... Its like a boxer saying "i lost the fight so i might as well not have even bothered competing." Just because you dont win doesnt mean theres no worth in taking part.

    Yes, only one party can win. But there are still a few thousand people in your constituency and they all have to be convinced to vote. It doesnt happen by magic that they all vote labour.

    If I had to pick between proportional representation and our current system, I'd chose PR. It has many flaws, but it's preferable to a system where some many people's votes mean nothing. If someone could come up with a FPTP system which didn't mean most people don't actually get a say in who governs, I'd probably support that.
    [/quote]

    Howw does a government form a cabinet in PR? Do they pick one from each of the coalition (Im assuming coalitions are how the PR systems work), or do they have a proportional basis for that, too?

    Is PR a reasonable solution to our voting problems?
    "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.

  28. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    No, it doesn't.

    I live in a safe Labour seat and whatever I put on the ballot paper tomorrow will make precisely no difference to the outcome of the election. I could read each manifesto carefully, weight up all the options and make a considered decision or I could draw a penis, the outcome would be exactly the same.
    You're defining your vote mattering in terms of it deciding the election. I think you'll find that in a PR system, your vote is even less likely to decide the election, and equally likely to give your party one extra seat. Just think about it. If you need 100k votes to get a seat, then unless you're the 100,000th vote, your vote won't matter.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Spawnie View Post
    Theres always the chance that the majority of people in your constituency can be persuaded to vote for someone else.
    At which point the people who voted Labour would be ignored instead, as would those who voted for all the other parties who didn't get in.

    Just because you dont win doesnt mean your vote doesnt matter.
    That's not why it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because it isn't counted towards the final total and has no relevance on who forms the next government.

    It doesnt happen by magic that they all vote labour.
    No, and that's why this consistency is and should be represented by a Labour MP. However, we are choosing a national government tomorrow, not a local one.

    How does a government form a cabinet in PR? Do they pick one from each of the coalition (Im assuming coalitions are how the PR systems work), or do they have a proportional basis for that, too?
    Coalitions are only necessary when no party has a decisive majority, a situation more likely under PR systems than FPTP systems. One of the flaws of the system but, I'd argue, a lesser flaw, than a situation where we're look at Labour being THIRD in total number of votes but FIRST in number of seats.

    Is PR a reasonable solution to our voting problems?
    It's a solution, therefore better than none at all.
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  30. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You're defining your vote mattering in terms of it deciding the election. I think you'll find that in a PR system, your vote is even less likely to decide the election, and equally likely to give your party one extra seat. Just think about it. If you need 100k votes to get a seat, then unless you're the 100,000th vote, your vote won't matter.
    What does that even mean? How do you decide which the 100,000th vote is?

    No vote 'decides the election', the concept is meaningless. However, what I would like is for my vote to count towards the final result irrespective of my geographic proximity to a large number of Labour voters.
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

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