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Thread: Why socialism only works for the racially pure: Micro-credit misogyny

  1. #1

    Default Why socialism only works for the racially pure: Micro-credit misogyny

    The dark side of micro-credit

    Over the last two to three decades rural Bangladeshi society has experienced a complex range of developments. Among these, NGOs, micro-finance institutions and garment industries have become the major agents of change in the lives of rural Bangladeshi women. Women's increased access to independent sources of finance, through participation in outside paid employment or through micro-credit, is usually taken as one of the main indicators of the improvement of women's status and of women's empowerment.

    However, a puzzle remains: if these positive changes have resulted in women's "empowerment", why has there not been the kind of improvements in women's position that might be expected, such as the reduction or abolition of dowry payments, or a reduction in domestic violence? Indeed, if anything these tend to be going in the opposite direction. Dowry amounts continue to rise, as does the associated violence against women.

    It is true that individual women, women's organisations and other NGOs continue to struggle against these problems. Yet, despite all this effort, women continue to be subject to demands for large amounts of dowry as a condition for acceptance by their groom's family. Married women are also frequently subjected to physical and psychological violence by their husbands and in-laws if they cannot keep bringing in more and more dowry, especially within the first few years of their marriage.

    Understanding dowry

    To understand the seemingly intractable problem of dowry, we need to understand the rationale behind the practice. Dowry practices in Bangladesh (the demand or dabi from grooms' families) are a relatively new phenomenon. Their rise is linked to the capitalist transformation of the Bangladeshi economy since the late 1960s and the resultant disjunction between the demands of the economy and the system of values in Bangladeshi society.

    This has led to a valorization of men and devalorization of women, legitimated both by a socially created surplus of marriageable women compared to men, and also by the threat posed to ideas of women's purity and honour by women's increasing physical mobility. All this in turn has made it possible for dowry to become a critical source of capital for families with sons, who are an increasingly prized commodity.

    These new negative developments in relation to women and dowry can be understood better by appreciating that in Bangladeshi culture marriage and dependence upon your husband is thought essential for women. By 'dependence' I mean both perceived and real economic dependency as well as the moral or cultural dependency of all women on one or another adult man of their family. The necessity for all women to be married, along with the perceived 'risks' posed by an unmarried woman to her family's honour, means that families feel pressured to marry off their daughters as soon as possible after puberty. This lowers the marriage age for women, so creating a perceived surplus of women in relation to men, who are not under the same pressure to marry and so generally marry later in life. This again leads to further inflation of dowries and to the further devaluing of women - economically, culturally and morally - in relation to men.

    Beyond the law

    Dowry was declared illegal in Bangladesh in 1980. However, like many other laws in Bangladesh this has had little or no impact. When faced with demands for large dowries, families are reluctant to take legal action for fear of losing suitable grooms. Thus villagers will say that if one family takes legal action, no other potential grooms will come forward to ask to marry a girl from that village in future. While there are para-legal staff in some rural villages, poor people only seek their assistance when a woman has been divorced after repeated demands for more and more dowry, combined with extensive violence. Families never report cases when dowry is demanded during marital negotiations.

    When I asked several groups of poor women what was their biggest problem during some recent research for CARE Bangladesh, their almost unanimous answer was "dowry". When I asked about violence, I heard numerous stories about how most of the violence against women was related to their parents' inability to meet the demands of husbands and their families for more and more money or other goods.

    Dowry has come to be one of the most critical sources of capital for all families. It is not only practiced as a one-off payment during marriage, but many families continue to use their newly-married incoming wives as an ongoing source of capital, by sending them back to their natal home again and again to bring back more capital. If the wives' families cannot oblige, the wives are subjected to violence, or even divorce.

    One such woman I spoke to, Ruksana, is the second of four sisters from a poor family. She was married to her cousin Ataul, and her parents paid 80,000 Bangladeshi Taka as dowry. After the marriage her mother-in-law mistreated her and demanded a bicycle, some jewellery and additional Tk30,000. Ruksana's mother took a Tk7000 loan from Grameen Bank, bought a cycle and made some ear-rings in the hope that the mother-in-law (her own brother's wife) would treat her daughter better, but Ruksana was pressured for more money. Ruksana did not want to tell her parents since they were already struggling to keep up payments on the first loan and could not afford enough food. Her mother-in-law then tricked her into signing divorce papers (she was told the papers were to obtain another loan), forced her to return to her parents' house, and arranged a new marriage for Ataul.

    The dark side of micro-credit

    This is where micro-credit has contributed to the escalation of dowry. While micro-credit has benefited large sections of the rural population in many ways, it has also worked against women's solidarity and contributed heavily to the inflation of dowry. Grooms' families are aware that money is available to brides' families more easily now, through Grameen Bank, the Bangladesh Rural Advancement Committee (BRAC) or other NGOs. I have often heard of women being sent home to persuade their parents to borrow money from an NGO for their husbands to invest in business, including buying items such as rickshaws, vans, grocery shops or irrigation pumps.

    Although in theory micro-finance institutions do not lend money for the purposes of dowry payment, in practice it is common knowledge among the barefoot bankers (micro-finance institution employees distributing and collecting loans among village people) that most village families depend on micro-credit to meet dowry demands.

    It is because of such near universal dependence of men on their wives' families for capital that dowry has come to be perceived by women's organisations as intractable and as 'too political' a problem to tackle directly.

    Dismantling the hierarchy

    Notwithstanding certain structural constraints, I still believe there are ways to arrest the problem of dowry, and in my work for CARE I made a number of recommendations. They include; collaboration between institutions working for women's rights to campaign on dowry, inheritance rights and domestic violence; development of a large-scale rural legal aid service following the model already developed by Ain o Salish Kendra (ASK) and the Bangladesh Rural Advancement Committee (BRAC); working with religious authorities; use of media, education and role models to contest village stereotypes of women.

    Another key point to consider is that the perpetuation of dowry and violence against women cannot only be blamed on men, particularly poor men. It is actually the middle-class families, who keep their women relatively sheltered in order to protect their purity and honour, and compete most heavily for status hierarchy through dowry displays, who are most responsible for perpetuating both dowry practices and gender domination.

    Middle-class women too gain from this status hierarchy. They demand dowry for their sons, are relatively able to pay large dowry for their daughters, and play active roles in maintaining their superior status in relation to less well-off women. As a result, they are often the people least willing to reject the dowry system. It is hard to see how things will change for poor village families when they are taken for granted by the rural and urban middle classes, who act as moral arbiters for the society as a whole.

    In tackling the problem of middle class attitudes, a piecemeal approach may work. In the shorter term, the younger middle class generation, who might have studied abroad and returned to Bangladesh, and do not necessarily share the same values to their parents, could be targeted. They are more often prepared to challenge familial values, for instance by marrying someone of their own choice without involvement of dowries.

    There also needs to be a dialogue between the women's organisations - especially legal ones such as Ask and the Bangladesh National Women Lawyers' Association (BNWLA) - and religious leaders. I believe if there is the political will on the part of the government, women's organisations, religious leaders, large NGOs and civil society in general, religious leaders can be used quite effectively in addressing the problem of dowry and violence against women. There is some precedence for this; in recent years religious leaders have been used very successfully in motivating large sections of the village people into accepting contraceptives within a relatively short space of time.

    Finally, education is frequently recommended as a solution to all sorts of problems in Bangladeshi society. I would recommend the same, but with less emphasis on rote learning and more on educating the young so they begin to question gender and other structural hierarchies very early in life.
    In case someone who isn't a whoring race-traitor is interested, the article itself is pretty good about linking to sources.

    It's stuff such as this that I'd wish Dread could see as a sign that it isn't just Ching-ping China-man who is the problem, but the cultures outside secular humanist socialism are those that most threaten the values, weapons and wombs of all we hold dear.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  2. #2
    Erm, dowry has nothing to do with religion, and I really fail to see how socialism would solve any of these people's problems. If anything, socialism caused the economic malaise in these places to start with...

    Maybe just maybe the problem is lack of employment opportunities (and the income and freedom that goes along with it), especially for women. People were making the exact same arguments about large chunks of Europe as of a century ago, and amazingly enough, they don't apply anymore. I wonder why.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    Usually you at least pretend to read what's posted before you start kicking up the fight you want to have
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  4. #4
    Some cultures are simply inferior. If you have a broken culture and a good idea doesn't work as well as intended there is it the fault of the good idea or the shitty culture?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Erm, dowry has nothing to do with religion, and I really fail to see how socialism would solve any of these people's problems. If anything, socialism caused the economic malaise in these places to start with...

    Maybe just maybe the problem is lack of employment opportunities (and the income and freedom that goes along with it), especially for women. People were making the exact same arguments about large chunks of Europe as of a century ago, and amazingly enough, they don't apply anymore. I wonder why.
    Says right in the article the problems with dowry are caused by the move toward capitalism. Is that even possible? Maybe the author's a socialist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Some cultures are simply inferior. If you have a broken culture and a good idea doesn't work as well as intended there is it the fault of the good idea or the shitty culture?
    I didn't bother to parse the more incomprehensible part of your post, but I find your hint at cultural evolution in the first sentence interesting. Did you mean it that way? You don't believe in biological evolution, right? (Not that there's a difference at the heart of it...)
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  6. #6
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Says right in the article the problems with dowry are caused by the move toward capitalism. Is that even possible? Maybe the author's a socialist.
    Loki's pointing out that the preceding problem (which the shift to capitalism is trying to address), economic stagnation and craptastic/non-existent employment opportunities was caused by dabbling with socialism in the first place, resulting in a situation where the population became dependent on whoring out their male children as an income source, in absence of any other options to make a living wage.

    Personally, I can't say I disagree. I'd also need a mountain-load of money to marry some preteen who can't give good head.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Some cultures are simply inferior. If you have a broken culture and a good idea doesn't work as well as intended there is it the fault of the good idea or the shitty culture?
    This statement means nothing and serves only to entrench your prejudices. Anyone on earth could say that and think it was as true of themselves as you think it is of yourself.

    I can safely assume that when you say "inferior" you mean "inferior to the land of the brave and the home of the free - texas" and when you say "good idea" you mean your own countries' particular arrangement of apathy and contempt, right?
    "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.

  8. #8
    Lest I be branded as a defender of the inferior races/cultures, my thread title refers to Western socialism, not socialism as practised by the demi-humans
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  9. #9
    Middle-class women too gain from this status hierarchy. They demand dowry for their sons, are relatively able to pay large dowry for their daughters, and play active roles in maintaining their superior status in relation to less well-off women. As a result, they are often the people least willing to reject the dowry system. It is hard to see how things will change for poor village families when they are taken for granted by the rural and urban middle classes, who act as moral arbiters for the society as a whole.
    Good article, Nessie.

    Made me wonder if minx plans to go back with his medical education, and make some changes.

  10. #10
    I haven't been a big believer in microcredit. But the banking problem here is sort of obvious: microcredit banks are lending money for dowries, not business development. Dowry loans don't actually pay anything back.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I haven't been a big believer in microcredit. But the banking problem here is sort of obvious: microcredit banks are lending money for dowries, not business development. Dowry loans don't actually pay anything back.
    I think you rather missed the goal of Grameen, or that they're stuck between a rock and hard penis in their attempts to empower women.

  12. #12

  13. #13
    Didn't we cover this at the 'other place'? You can google (or bing) Grameen and read their mission philosophy.

    They noticed that mothers with children lived in poverty and needed a way to become self-sufficient. Put another way, most of the people living in poverty were mothers with children, trying to support entire families.

    In order to keep children within the family, but not prostitute themselves in child-slave-sex labor, they figured empowering the female as head of household would "trickle down" and benefit the children, too.

    Nessie's OP article exposed the cultural male dominance that blows that theory away, because the still male dominated middle class families just saw it as "oh goody, more women with a dowry!" So it didn't break the cycle of misogyny (or womens' dependancy on men) they had hoped it would.

    At least that's how I read it. I could be wrong. Probably depends on how one reads the thing, and their initial biases about the male/female power structure in OTHER cultures.

  14. #14
    Yeah, but Grameen didn't invent microfinance. They re-branded it as some kind of feminine empowerment tool.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Yeah, but Grameen didn't invent microfinance. They re-branded it as some kind of feminine empowerment tool.
    Grameen took micro-finance to a new level of "main stream" though. Re-branding isn't such a bad thing, it's done all the time.

    You want to argue about their business structure while others are addressing their business mission?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Loki's pointing out that the preceding problem (which the shift to capitalism is trying to address), economic stagnation and craptastic/non-existent employment opportunities was caused by dabbling with socialism in the first place, resulting in a situation where the population became dependent on whoring out their male children as an income source, in absence of any other options to make a living wage.

    Personally, I can't say I disagree. I'd also need a mountain-load of money to marry some preteen who can't give good head.
    Since when do you translate for Loki?
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  17. #17
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Since I ran out of things to watch. Useless fucking big media companies.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Since I ran out of things to watch. Useless fucking big media companies.
    I hear you there.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  19. #19
    I could count on my fingers the number of times I've watched TV (excluding a few DVDs) in the last 2 years. Don't miss it a bit.

    Edit: this got posted in a thread in the other forum.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I could count on my fingers the number of times I've watched TV (excluding a few DVDs) in the last 2 years. Don't miss it a bit.

    Edit: this got posted in a thread in the other forum.
    This might explain why you're so much more, well, not to be negative, but tolerable. That or its the girlfriend. Probably the latter. I think this is why Arch-Islamic men are so violent - they don't get exposed to women enough.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

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