Once again, Labour has absolutely no intention of granting PR. At best, they'll put it up for a referendum at some point in the future and then make sure the referendum fails.Originally Posted by Hazir
Once again, Labour has absolutely no intention of granting PR. At best, they'll put it up for a referendum at some point in the future and then make sure the referendum fails.
Hope is the denial of reality
PR has quite a bit of support in Labour already. It's also attractive to them since under PR it's significantly easier for them to stay in the government and keep the Tories out.
Clegg has finally decided to also meet Brown.
Congratulations America
No, it doesn't. Some Labourites are claiming to support it to get the Lib Dems on their side. They've never claimed to support it before, and it's definitely not in their interest to support it. Under PR, Labour would at best have to constantly govern with the Lib Dems. And if voting Lib Dem wasn't a "lost vote", then it's conceivable that they'd end up the junior partner in such coalitions. It also assumes that the Lib Dems would prefer to be in a coalition with Labour and not the Tories in the future. Do you think Labour is so stupid that it would change a system that has given them a significant advantage for the last century?
Hope is the denial of reality
Says the Lib Dem voter.Could you explain this exchange for the dumb faggots in the crowd, Low-key?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Well, we are talking about Labour. . .
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Given that the LD is the result of a merger of the Liberal Party and the Social Democrat Party it's a pretty safe bet that they are more inclined to join a leftish coalition than one with a Conservative Party that is as rabidly right as it is today.
Also, your claim that PR has no support in Labour is simply not true.
Congratulations America
In '97, Labour tried to get the Libs on board and Paddy Ashdown a seat in cabinet. PR was what scuppered the whole deal back then, too. So, yes, the Liberals are right to be skeptical about how genuine Labour's offer is.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Erm, the Tories are pretty damn centrist.And the Liberals are closer to the Tories than they are to Labour. It's only the social democratic wing that supports Labour.
Hope is the denial of reality
Except that the old Liberal Party's last act in government was to be in a coalition with the Conservatives, post-war at first the Liberals and Conservatives didn't stand in each others seats in order to keep out Labour candidates . . . and to make a modern-day example, the first ever post-war, nay the first ever peacetime coalition since the old Liberal-Conservative one is going to be a Conservative/Lib-Dem one.
So why given both history and what is happening this weekend is it a 'safe bet' the LDs would align with Labour? If it was such a safe bet then they could if they wanted do so now, but they don't want to. The truth is they're already aligning with the Conservatives and if this coalition goes ahead as seems likely, then don't think Labour MPs in the future will be so quick to forget about that fact.
PS Warrington Council (where I live) has a Lib-Dem/Conservative coalition leading it.
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PR has negligible support in Labour. Labour are the single largest beneficiary of FPTP. At the last election Labour beat the Tory's by 3%, got less votes than the Tory's in England, got just 35.6% of the popular vote . . . and an absolute majority of 66 seats, more seats than the Tory's in England even.
This election the Conservatives beat Labour by 7%, got millions more votes than Labour across the country, got 36% (higher) of seats yet are 18 votes short of a majority.
The system favours Labour tremendously and they know it. They will never vote for PR. Alternative Vote (which they think will favour them even more) yes, but that's even less proportional than FPTP.
And in 2009 the cabinet talked about reviving the proposals made in that deal.
Congratulations America
Which is why we have proportional representation today!
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Not just PR: The fact Blair won a landslide majority and had no need for the Lib-Dems so could toss them aside didn't help either. Labour love of the Lib-Dems is only ever a marriage of convenience.
New Labour is centrist too, the only party that's not centrist of the big 3 are the Conservatives who now are not happy about a deal with a party as far to the left of them as the LD are. The people who are hitting it off are Cameron and Clegg, they after all have a pretty similar background. Their power base has an entirely different view of the compatibility.Erm, the Tories are pretty damn centrist.
Congratulations America
The subject is if Labour only offered it as a cynical ploy to get the LD on board or that there is support inside Labour for changing the electoral system.
Congratulations America
Centrist parties don't run up an 11% deficit, raid public pensions, and increase public spending at a record level.
Hope is the denial of reality
Support for changing it to PR?
There's support for changing it to AV, which they think would boost their support even further, but any Lib-Dems I know who are keen on PR dislike AV even more than FPTP. AV is less proportionate than FPTP, hence Labour's support for it.
Both parties want the system that is better for them and they are diametrically opposed.
Any coalition is a marriage of convenience.
Congratulations America
You will agree I hope that Robin Cook was an influentual member of the Labour Party ? He made a case for PR back in 2005 already.
Congratulations America
WTF?
The Conservatives are the party making the deal. You're blind hatred for the Conservatives, clearly visible for many years, is blinding you to that. There is no real opposition to this deal whatsoever. While the far-left Labour party who have destroyed are economy are being left in the cold while the two centrist parties try to figure out how to boot Brown out and clear up his mess.
The late Robin Cook is not an influential member of the Labour Party today. In 2005 Cook's career was virtually over already, even without his untimely death.
He is one of a few lone voices to have ever made the case; only a single member of Labour's cabinet, Alan Johnson, has ever spoken up for PR.
From the Torygraph
Congratulations America
They were thinking strategically. A permenant Lib-Lab unification would fuck up the Tories for a generation. Apparently, this was some kind of part of the New Labour project.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Janet Daley is a polemic columnist, not a Tory.
With a very impressive collection of chips, judging by that.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Indeed, but nothing's ever permanent. The mood at the time was anti-Tory - inevitably after 18 years of Tory government. After just 13 years of Labour, at a point where the Conservatives won another victory on (significantly better than Labour even in '97 based on votes), the situtation has changed dramatically and the mood is anti-Labour.
1992: Government 41.9%, opposition 34.4% and 17.8%
2010: Government 29.0%, opposition 36.1% and 23.0%
Labour in power isn't as popular as after decades of opposition, unsurprisingly.
Writing in a newspaper that represents what a huge number of Conservatives think. Remember how you admitted that newspapers were extremely partisan in the UK ?
Congratulations America
Editorials by columnists don't usually represent the newspapers 'official take' on the subject, and are just presented as the opinion of that columnist only.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Newspapers are partisan but that doesn't mean their columnists represent what a party thinks. I've never claimed that nor would be so obtuse.
Editorials represent one columnists opinion only. Even then that editorial isn't that negative calling the move "clever".
I know, but they are a pretty good representation of what the newspaper thinks its readership appreciates. And this is only one example, the Torygraph website is loaded with anti-Cameron diatribes.
Congratulations America
The Telegraph represents Telegraph readers - and within the Telegraph there is a wide variety of columnists, plenty who are not anti-Cameron.
Conservative supporting papers include (brackets who they supported in '05): The Telegraph (Con '05), The Sunday Telegraph (Con '05), The Times (Lab '05), The Sunday Times (Con '05), The Sun (Lab '05), The News of the World (Lab '05), The Mail (Con '05), The Mail on Sunday (Con '05), The Economist (Lab '05), The Financial Times (Lab '05).
There are more that I can't remember. The Telegraph is far from the sole paper backing the Conservatives now.
Just one paper set backed Labour at the 2010 election in fact: The Mirror/Sunday Mirror. Only. They even claimed it as an "Exclusive". The Lib-Dems had more papers backing them (Guardian/Observer and Independent/Independent on Sunday).
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