They're definitely not nuclear so they'll have to surface sooner than later.
They're definitely not nuclear so they'll have to surface sooner than later.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/...052701465.htmlN.Korean Top Leadership 'Closely Involved in Cheonan Sinking'
North Korea's Navy Command is believed to have planned the attack on the South Korean Navy corvette Cheonan, which was carried out by the Reconnaissance Bureau, according to a radio broadcaster to the North. Ha Tae-keung, who operates Open Radio for North Korea, says the six North Korean sailors aboard the submarine that attacked the Cheonan were given "hero" status.
"North Korea's Navy Command planned the Cheonan attack around Jan. 8," the birthday of leader Kim Jong-il's son and heir apparent Jong-un, "and the Reconnaissance Bureau led the mission by deploying a submarine and a mini-sub," Ha told a press conference Wednesday.
Citing sources in North Korea, Ha said, "The submarine protected the mini-sub, which was carrying two mid-sized torpedoes and two mines for self destruction should the mission fail." All six operatives on board the mini-sub were given hero status back in North Korea, and the crew of the accompanying submarine were also awarded top medals, he added.
Ha cited three reasons why Kim Jong-il approved the attack: to avenge the North's defeat in a naval clash near Daecheong Island in the West Sea in November last year, to test out new stealth submarines and strategies, and to ratchet up tensions in order to facilitate the succession. "Kim Jong-il visited the naval command with Jong-un to boost morale at the end of December after the defeat in the West Sea," Ha said. "He did not fire any high-ranking officials responsible for the naval defeat, but ordered them to seek revenge."
The North Korean Navy's headquarters and an army division in the West Sea supported the mission, he said. The plan was reviewed by the minister of the People's Armed Forces, Kim Yong-chun, and Vice Chairman of the National Defense Commission O Kuk-ryol. Ha said Kim Jong-un probably compiled the reports filed by the defense commission and briefed Kim Jong-il.
Ha pointed to Kim Jong-il, Kim Yong-chun, O Kuk-ryol, as well as North Korean Navy Commander Jong Myong-do and Kim Yong-chol, head of reconnaissance operations, as the five main culprits behind the attack on the Cheonan. "A day before the attack on the Cheonan, North Korea ordered the West Sea fleet and army division to prepare for combat." He claimed that soldiers were told the alert was in preparation for joint South Korea-U.S. military exercises but ordered to fight back if the South Korean Navy chased the sub after the attack.
englishnews@chosun.com / May 27, 2010 13:50 KST
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
I'm not sure how valuable this piece of data is, given the fact that Kim Jong-il could have just approved its airing simply to save face...
. . .
Nice.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
What Illusions said. This long after the event, any such announcement is basically meaningless, just traditional agit-prop for popularity cult cultivation.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
If things escalating any further than they have, I think war becomes more likely than not. However, if things stay as they are for a few weeks and everyone adjusts to the new status quo then war can probably be avoided.
On China,
China: Beijing's View of the Building Korean Tensions
RODGER BAKER
STRATFOR
May 27, 2010
Summary
Tensions between North Korea and South Korea continued building May 26. China, perhaps the only country capable of constraining Pyongyang, has a complex view of the situation owing to its relations with both Koreas and the United States, its economic considerations and its longer-term geopolitical needs in Northwest Asia. Beijing’s needs have led it to examine several options for dealing with North Korea, including one involving the installation of a Chinese-controlled leadership in Pyongyang.
Analysis
As tensions between the two Koreas simmer, all eyes (and much diplomatic attention) are on China — perhaps the only country with the ability to constrain North Korean behavior. Beijing has called for all parties to remain calm, but has yet to accept the findings of a South Korean-led multinational investigation that determined the ChonAn was sunk by a North Korean torpedo attack, nor does China appear likely at this time to accept strong sanctions against North Korea in the United Nations.
Beijing’s views on the current tensions are complex, shaped by China’s differing relations with the two Koreas, economic considerations, U.S. relations and a broader look at security concerns in Northeast Asia.
The People’s Republic of China has a longstanding relationship with North Korea, formed both from emerging Cold War ideological alliances and from China’s even longer-standing view of the Korean Peninsula as an important buffer from foreign encroachment. China’s intervention in the Korean War was as much (if not more) about keeping the U.S. military from setting up bases along the Yalu River, the border between China and North Korea, as it was about helping out a Communist ally. The traditional Chinese phrase “as close as lips and teeth,” which it uses to describe the relationship with North Korea, has a second line: “When the lips are gone, the teeth get cold.” China protects the “lip” of North Korea to avoid being exposed.
Since the waning days of the Cold War, however, China has had a mixed relationship with North Korea. No longer bound by ideological or Cold War structures, China helped pave the way for both Koreas to be recognized in the United Nations in 1991, and established robust economic and political relations with South Korea. At the same time, it maintained close ties with the North, economically propping up the Pyongyang regime to maintain the strategic buffer, and ultimately learning that Chinese influence in North Korea could be traded for international attention and influence elsewhere. If Seoul or Washington wanted to deal with North Korea or change Pyongyang’s behavior, it would first go to Beijing, which is why China has been the centerpiece of the six-party talks on North Korea’s nuclear program.
But despite Beijing’s strong influence in Pyongyang, the relationship is often shaky. China is by far the largest foreign supporter of and player in the North Korean economy. Despite, or perhaps because of, its dependence on China, North Korea is constantly seeking alternative sources of income and resources — and one method it has devised is to hold regular nuclear and military crises to attract international attention and accept payment for a return to the status quo. North Korean leaders have also grown wary of rising Chinese influence in their country, and internal economic crackdowns and political jockeying often relate back to economic deals or political relations with China. Even the question of who will succeed North Korean leader Kim Jong Il has been caught up in rumors of faction struggles linked to Chinese interests and support for one son over the other, and one group of North Korean elites over another.
Strategically, North Korea is certainly worried about South Korea’s military and the U.S. forces to the south, but it is also concerned about the potential for Chinese intervention from the north. The Dandong-Sinuiju border area is a geographic weak spot in North Korea’s northern defenses, which elsewhere are made up primarily of high mountains. As was vividly demonstrated during the Korean War (and several times in previous centuries), there is little to stop movement along the length of the Korean Peninsula. Armies can march up or down the peninsula between Sinuiju and southwest South Korea with relative impunity. From Pyongyang’s perspective, there is little to keep the Chinese army from marching south to Pyongyang should relations suddenly deteriorate, or China change its stance on North Korea. Beijing and Pyongyang have already experienced rifts over the border crossing.
This is not entirely a hypothetical threat, however. China has reassessed its options in case of a real Korean crisis, and it determined that there are very good reasons not to allow itself to be drawn again into a war with the United States. Rather, Beijing has quietly proposed a new possibility to Washington. If the North Korean regime appeared on the verge of collapse, or on the verge of launching a war on the South, or if war breaks out, Beijing would use a combination of its factional supporters in Pyongyang and in key military positions, as well as its own military if necessary, and place its own Korean leadership in place in the North. This would allow Beijing to retain the North as a buffer state, rein in erratic North Korean behavior and avoid a conflict with the United States.
Some elements in Washington have been receptive to the idea, seeing it as an alternative to the broader war that could emerge and the massive humanitarian and reconstruction job that would follow another Korean war. They also believe China would be able to quickly secure (and dispose of) North Korea’s nuclear potential, avoiding some of the worse-case scenarios in which a collapsing Pyongyang either detonates its nuclear weapons or, less realistically, sells them to the highest bidder. Seoul has given the idea a more cautious reception, as Beijing would likely hold North Korea “on behalf of the United Nations,” potentially for years or decades, before paving the way for a gradual unification.
Such scenarios are once again being studied as the two Koreas have severed ties and threatened instant retaliation for any perceived territorial violation — a situation that could lead to tit-for-tat escalation and increase chances for error or miscalculation. But in the nearer term, China is assessing its role in the current crisis and carefully balancing its relations with Pyongyang and Seoul. China’s economic ties and political relations with the North leave Beijing in a difficult position: It does not feel it can openly side with the South Koreans and harshly punish North Korea. Not only does that risk losing Chinese influence over the North — and possibly losing the buffer — but Beijing is also trying to make a clear statement to the South that the failure to include Chinese investigators in the multinational team that looked at the ChonAn sinking will not be tolerated. If the South wants to use Chinese influence, it will also have to accept Chinese participation.
Beijing is currently assessing whether imposing economic sanctions on North Korea would be effective or backfire. Much of China’s leverage with Pyongyang comes from its economic assistance to the North. Cutting that assistance might change the North’s behavior briefly, but it will also cause Pyongyang to redouble its efforts to find a new sponsor, undermining Chinese influence over time. Beijing is also slow to respond in part because it can use U.S. and South Korean requests for Chinese intervention as bargaining chips in deflecting U.S. pressure on Chinese currency or economic issues, for example, or in gaining additional influence with South Korea.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
I have it on good authority that Ghenghis Khans left nut weighed more than 300 tonnes.
"Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.
That had to be the worst case of testicular hypertrophy in planet's history.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Why do you think he was so pissed off?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I hear he didnt even ride a horse, just used his enormous 'nads as a space hopper
"Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.
You guys are dumb.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Young, dumb and a full'o'cum!
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Yay! The kitchen sinks give the nod of approval.Originally Posted by Auntie
Lets fuck 'em up.
More likely China's trying to add to the pressure to get DPRK to back down, I doubt anyone's really keen on having the peninsula obliterated economically
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Well, if Hyundai gets shut down, I know a certain auto company that's likely to benefit.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Yeah, what a terrible world it would be if you guys couldnt churn out more crappy massive cars that cant turn corners...
How would you ride a horse with 300 ton balls, mr smartypants.
Actually, i heard the reason Ghenghis was such a badass was that he was so pissed off with everyone laughing at his balls.
"Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.
Ahem. The cars I'm referring to are the highest quality in the world and have exceptional gas mileage - better than most in their segment. They're certainly the best cars you can buy in Europe and happen to be the best selling in Europe. Fucker.
If I had 300 ton balls I'd simply have them removed, then go riding.How would you ride a horse with 300 ton balls, mr smartypants.
No, he was a bad ass because he had the balls to do things nobody else would. I'm sure he had a 47 foot cock to go with those balls too.Actually, i heard the reason Ghenghis was such a badass was that he was so pissed off with everyone laughing at his balls.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Someone told me it was because his wife wore a previous boyfriends much bigger shirt to bed as a nightie
"Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.
Who?
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
This sorta contrasts to a friend of mine who is working in South Korean right now who seems to think people are getting quite a bit freaked out about it. Though she's really more of an outsider and could be gauging the situation incorrectly.May 27, 2010
South Korea’s Collective Shrug
By B. R. MYERS
Busan, South Korea
ONE of the students at my university was killed in the attack that sank a South Korean naval vessel on March 26. A visual communications major, Mun Yeong-uk was only a few months from concluding his military service when a North Korean torpedo split the warship, the Cheonan, in half. His classmates loyally collected money for his family’s funeral expenses, but I was struck by how few people on our campus evinced any real anger toward the regime of Kim Jong-il.
This lack of indignation is mainstream here. Most people now accept North Korea’s responsibility for the sinking that killed Mr. Mun and 45 other sailors. A small but sizable minority suspect an elaborate government conspiracy of some sort. What almost all seem to share is the desire that South Korea put this unfortunate business behind it as soon as possible.
Support for military retaliation appears confined to those too old to fight. Even the rather mild measures that the South Korean president, Lee Myung-bak, announced on Monday — which included the drastic reduction of inter-Korean trade and resumption of the propaganda war along the demilitarized zone — have caused widespread hand-wringing.
The general reluctance to take the North Koreans to task can be partly attributed to a rational apprehension of the military realities. No one here needs to be reminded that Kim Jong-il could bomb Seoul flat even without using his new nuclear capacity. And in a country where all fit young men must spend two years in the military, “chicken hawks” are much harder to come by than in America.
But historical and cultural factors are also at work. By this I do not mean only the collective memory of the Korean War and its manifold horrors. Up until the late 1980s, right-wing governments resorted to North Korea scares so often that many people now refuse to believe any stories about the regime, no matter how overwhelming the evidence. If President Lee thought he could allay doubts with an especially thorough investigation into the sinking, he was mistaken. Left-wing newspapers now accuse him of postponing the announcement of the investigation’s results to exert maximum influence on next week’s regional elections.
It would be unfair to characterize these skeptics as pro-Pyongyang, but there is more sympathy for North Korea here than foreigners commonly realize. As a university student in West Berlin in the 1980s, I had a hard time finding even a Marxist with anything nice to say about East Germany. In South Korea, however, the North’s human rights abuses are routinely shrugged off with reference to its supposedly superior nationalist credentials. One often hears, for example, the mistaken claim that Mr. Kim’s father, Kim Il-sung, purged his republic of former Japanese collaborators, in alleged contrast to the morally tainted South.
Sympathy for Pyongyang is especially widespread in the peninsula’s chronically disgruntled southwest, and not just because this farming region profits whenever food aid is sent to the North. Gwangju, the largest city in the region, just commemorated the 30th anniversary of a brutal government massacre of civilian demonstrators, many of whom were defamed in the official news media of the time as North Korean agents.
South Korean nationalism is something quite different from the patriotism toward the state that Americans feel. Identification with the Korean race is strong, while that with the Republic of Korea is weak. (Kim Jong-il has a distinct advantage here: his subjects are more likely to equate their state with the race itself.) Thus few South Koreans feel personally affected by the torpedo attack.
Besides, Koreans in both the North and the South tend to cherish the myth that of all peoples in the world, they are the least inclined to premeditated evil. The sinking of the Cheonan is widely viewed here as an almost spontaneous byproduct of inter-Korean tension — a regrettable aberration that should not be made too much of. The left attributes the recent increase of tension to President Lee’s rejection of his predecessors’ accommodationist Sunshine Policy. Yet even the conservative news media talk of the attack in terms of an “error” that the North should own up to, not a cold-blooded act. Students in my classes tend to refer to the sinking as an “accident.”
This urge to give the North Koreans the benefit of the doubt is in marked contrast to the public fury that erupted after the killings of two South Korean schoolgirls by an American military vehicle in 2002; it was widely claimed that the Yankees murdered them callously. During the street protests against American beef imports in the wake of a mad cow disease scare in 2008, posters of a child-poisoning Uncle Sam were all the rage. It is illuminating to compare those two anti-American frenzies with the small and geriatric protests against Pyongyang that have taken place in Seoul in recent weeks.
Such are the unique circumstances under which President Lee has tried to marshal a firm and unified response to the North’s latest provocation. So far he has done an excellent job, conveying just the right mixture of resolve and restraint. Where American presidents tend to personalize conflict with foreign powers, Mr. Lee refrained from explicitly blaming Kim Jong-il for the sinking; this may make it a little easier for the dictator to issue an apology without losing face.
Even as the North threatens “all-out war,” the Obama administration would do well to emulate the South Korean leader. It should be mindful enough of Korean nationalism to hold back on its own rhetoric. It would be counterproductive if Washington were to look more interested in punishing North Korea than the injured party is.
B. R. Myers, the director of the international studies department at Dongseo University, is the author of “The Cleanest Race: How North Koreans See Themselves — and Why It Matters.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/28/opinion/28myers.html
That's pretty consistent with what I hear. The South Koreans are loathe to criticize the North, in marked contrast to their willingness to bash the US. This is especially true of the younger generation.
Hope is the denial of reality
Well now I've had a change of heart... screw em. Well not really but gee talk about a nation of ingrates.
It's conventional war... the US didn't even really have to send in many ground forces to topple the Taliban... just had to dangle some cash in front of the Northern Alliance and send some bombers and air support. NK isn't exactly as mountainous and harsh terrain as Afghanistan or Iraq, either.
3 hours, tops. Watch!
So if the Civil War had gone differently and France was in charge of the Yankee states, the yanks should feel more camaraderie with frogs than Texans?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
They don't want a war with the psycho's from the north. The US, however, is like a battered wife. Treat us like shit but we'll always be there when they need us, kinda like with Israel. That's loyalty.
what
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
I would hope they would not be on the side of the dictator who starves his people and is one step away from the loony bin.
George W Bushes come and go, but national brotherhood is here to *gunshot*
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
In a stunning diplomatic coup which has left the US State Department and South Korean government reeling, North Korea has shot dead three Chinese civilians, on Chinese soil.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,3547123.story
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
No chance of an honest mistake? I certainly don't trust NK, but how could they know which citizens they were shooting at?
EDIT: Whoops, somehow thought they were shot crossing the border, not on Chinese soil. Kind of does make a difference then.
Hey guys, so where do I go to vote for the anti-Israel resolutions at the UN?
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