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Thread: A Genetic Basis for Jewishness

  1. #1

    Default A Genetic Basis for Jewishness

    I've often wondered what being a Jew means, specficially whether it is an ethnicity or a relgion or both. So here's a study by some folks that were wondering the same thing with some, apparently, unexpected results. Turns out Jews around the world of every stripe do in fact share the same genetic roots and, contrary to the Bible's Abraham, those roots only go back about 2000 years. Does that mean the modern Jews are not in fact descendants of the Abrahamic Jews that God chose? It occurs to me now that those Christian Psychos that love to hate Jews might be able to make some hay with this, squaring their love of God and hate of God's Chosen....

    http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceno...ess.html?rss=1

    Tracing the Roots of Jewishness

    Who are the Jews? For more than a century, historians and linguists have debated whether the Jewish people are a racial group, a cultural and religious entity, or something else. More recently, scientists have been weighing in on the question with genetic data. The latest such study, published today in the American Journal of Human Genetics, shows a genetic connection among all Jews, despite widespread migrations and intermarriage with non-Jews. It also apparently refutes repeated claims that most Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Central Europeans who converted to Judaism 1000 years ago.

    Historians divide the world's 13 million living Jews into three groups: Middle Eastern, or Oriental, Jews; Sephardic Jews from Spain and Portugal; and Ashkenazi Jews from Europe. Although the Bible traces Jewish roots back to the time of Abraham some 4000 years ago, most historians have concluded that the actual Jewish identity dates to only a little over 2000 years ago.

    The origins of today's Jews have been less clear, especially those of the Ashkenazis, who make up 90% of American Jews and nearly 50% of Israeli Jews. Ashkenazi Jews settled in Germany in the 9th century C.E. and developed their own language, Yiddish. Some writers, notably Arthur Koestler in his 1976 book The Thirteenth Tribe, have argued that the Ashkenazis stem from a Turkic tribe in Central Asia called the Khazars, who converted to Judaism in the 8th century. And historian Shlomo Sand of Tel Aviv University in Israel argues in his book The Invention of the Jewish People, translated into English last year, that most modern Jews do not descend from the ancient Land of Israel but from groups that took on Jewish identities long afterward.

    Such notions, however, clash with several recent studies suggesting that Jewishness, including the Ashkenazi version, has deep genetic roots. In what its authors claim is the most comprehensive study thus far, a team led by geneticist Harry Ostrer of the New York University School of Medicine concludes today that all three Jewish groups—Middle Eastern, Sephardic, and Ashkenazi—share genomewide genetic markers that distinguish them from other worldwide populations.

    Ostrer and his colleagues analyzed nuclear DNA from blood samples taken from a total of 237 Ashkenazi and Middle Eastern Jews in New York City and Sephardic Jews in Seattle, Washington; Greece; Italy; and Israel. They compared these with DNA from about 2800 presumably non-Jewish individuals from around the world. The team used several analytical approaches to calculate how genetically similar the Jewish groups were to each other and to the non-Jewish groups, including a method called identity by descent (IBD), which is often used to determine how closely two individuals are related.

    Individuals within each Jewish group had high levels of IBD, roughly equivalent to that of fourth or fifth cousins. Although each of the three Jewish groups showed genetic admixture (interbreeding) with nearby non-Jews, they shared many genetic features, suggesting common roots that the team estimated went back more than 2000 years. Ashkenazi Jews, whose genetic profiles indicated between 30% to 60% admixture with Europeans, nevertheless clustered more closely with Middle Eastern and Sephardic Jews, a finding the researchers say is inconsistent with the Khazar hypothesis. "I would hope that these observations would put the idea that Jewishness is just a cultural construct to rest," Ostrer says.

    Other researchers praise the work. It's the largest to date on this question, and using the IBD method to tackle it is "innovative," says geneticist Noah Rosenberg of the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. Sarah Tishkoff, a geneticist at the University of Pennsylvania, says that "this is clearly showing a genetic common ancestry of all Jewish populations." Nevertheless, says Rosenberg, although the study "does not appear to support" the Khazar hypothesis, it doesn't entirely eliminate it either.

    The study does not address the status of groups whose claim to Jewishness has been controversial, such as Ethiopian Jews, the Lemba from southern Africa, and several groups from India and China. But given the findings of a common genetic origin plus a complex history of admixture, geneticist David Goldstein of Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, says that neither of the "extreme models"—those that see Jewishness as entirely cultural or entirely genetic—"are correct." Rather, Goldstein says, "Jewish genetic history is a complicated mixture of both genetic continuity from an ancestral population and extensive admixture."
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  2. #2
    As usual, you misinterpret the data. The results imply that there is a common population/ancestry of Jews somewhere longer than 2,000 years ago, but then they split into multiple groups. As this roughly coincides with the last major Jewish dispersal to different places in the diaspora, this is not a surprising finding. If anything, the data support claims among various Jewish groups to common ancestry in current-day Israel during and prior to the Roman period. It says nothing about tracing back to Abrahamic times (~3700 or so years back).

    So, the study tells us something we already knew - there are both ethnic/genetic and cultural/religious components to Judaism. Surprise.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender
    As usual, you misinterpret the data.
    Harsh toke, dude
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  4. #4
    According to Egyptian state television, the link is in the bank account numbers.

    Funny, I guess I don't often stop to think about the vague religious-social identity of Jews can seem so quizzical to many people. To be honest, at least in the American experience, I think it's partly also a function of being a minority group. Albeit not always an easily recognizable one, but similar.

  5. #5
    To be honest, I think it's a silly question. No one wastes their time arguing about other non-proselytizing religions as to whether they are 'ethnic' or 'religious' or whatever identities; for some reason there's just this fascination with the concept of Judaism as an ethnicity. To be honest, I think most Jews identify with it as a religion, an ethos, or a nationality, and not as an ethnicity. For example, many Jews in the US 50 years ago would have been horrified if their children brought a non-Jew home as a significant other, but wouldn't have particularly cared if they brought a Jew of African or Asian or Hispanic descent **as long as they were legitimately a Jew** (e.g. Black Hebrews might not be as welcomed).

    Additionally, I could walk into a Jewish community in the middle of nowhere (Yemen or India or Ethiopia or whatever) and find a warm welcome (not to mention a common language) despite the fact that our closest common ancestor has been dead for more than two millennia. To be honest, this isn't even uncommon - it's pretty much SOP for a practicing Jew to look up the local community of a place they are visiting, and they're likely to be offered places to stay and meals from complete strangers. The point is that this connection and identity has little to do with a common ethnic heritage (though technically most Jews are related to one another) and everything to do with shared cultural and religious practices. In fact, Jews have specifically excluded ethnically related brethren from the 'identity' of Jews at various points in history when their belief and practice strays too far from core Jewish principles. Obviously, the reverse also works, where converts are readily accepted, regardless of ethnicity.

  6. #6
    Probably because Jews themselves talk about "who's Jewish or not", depending on maternal genes, and Israel citizenship, and all that.

    It's almost like the Sammy Davis, Jr. confusion of decades ago.

  7. #7
    But no Jewish organization (or country) defines it as an ethnic identity. It's either religious, social/cultural, or national. The debate ignores ethnicity entirely

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    But no Jewish organization (or country) defines it as an ethnic identity. It's either religious, social/cultural, or national. The debate ignores ethnicity entirely
    Really? Then why are there debates about defining JewishNess via maternal genes?

  9. #9
    YHWH lives in the fallopian tubes
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Really? Then why are there debates about defining JewishNess via maternal genes?
    Matrilineal descent is contrasted with patrilineal descent, not with no descent at all. Supporters of both sides (e.g. matrilineal vs. patrilineal) agree that a valid conversion can allow one to join the Jewish people either way, they just dispute the specific method of descent in the absence of conversion. Furthermore, I could argue that membership in a community by descent is a national and not ethnic distinction. It doesn't matter what you look like, it just matters that your parent(s) are Jewish - the could be converts, or from any region of the world, and it doesn't particularly matter. Compare to, say, American citizenship, which is predicated on the citizenship of your parents and not your ethnicity.

  11. #11
    Jus sanguinis and jus soli aren't equally popular, but both are in place in some nations. Not sure what that has to do with anything, though.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  12. #12
    Yes, but I'm using citizenship as proxy for national identity (which I will admit it not identical). I think a good argument can be made that even in the absence of a legal right to citizenship by descent, one still retains part of that national identity if one's parents profess to that nationality.

  13. #13
    The state in question does care whether one is a citizen or just feels like one, though. Similarly, just because I decided I'm now Jewish because my father's father was one, I'd still have to prove my worth through conversion to a synagogue who felt Jewishness is a matrilineal trait. Right? I guess what I'm asking is whether it's enough to self-identify as a Jew. This is somewhat the case with Christianity, although certainly not always, but Jewishness isn't that simple?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  14. #14
    Citizenship != nationality

    As for everything else, it all depends (this is the Jewish answer to every question). To be accepted into the general Jewish fold, some Jewish ancestry or identity is all that's necessary - for example, an aspiring convert will become part of the community prior to a full conversion, people with some Jewish ancestry are often accepted in their identification with 'Judaism', etc.

    However. When it comes to specifics - marriage, participation in some Jewish ritual observances, leadership positions in the Jewish community, etc. - generally those are reserved for those who meet some objective criteria (rather than just a vague 'identification' with Judaism). These criteria change for different branches of Judaism, but they generally boil down to either a conversion or Jewish descent of one form or another. Notably, being a practicing Jew is not one of these criteria, though it often helps for leadership positions.

  15. #15
    Citizenship != nationality
    That's why I said "the state" cares. Because in this analogy the Jewish community is the gubment of the nation our Johnny Foreigner feels he's part of. See?

    I can decide I'm a Jew every odd Tuesday but that doesn't mean diddly insofar as actual Jews are concerned.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    That's why I said "the state" cares. Because in this analogy the Jewish community is the gubment of the nation our Johnny Foreigner feels he's part of. See?
    *shrugs* Okay, let's just lose the analogy - we're getting tied up in semantics that don't really address the question of whether Judaism is an ethnicity.

    I can decide I'm a Jew every odd Tuesday but that doesn't mean diddly insofar as actual Jews are concerned.
    Yes and no. If you become a member of a Jewish community and join in communal practices, it would mean something. It wouldn't be 'official' until a conversion, but such an individual would have a fundamentally different treatment in the eyes of the Jewish world than someone who didn't adopt that identity.

    Essentially, converts to Judaism (or descendants of Jews who choose not to assimilate) are consciously writing themselves into the Jewish story. This is a very personal shift in identity; sure, it is later formalized by a vetting process of some sort, but the underlying shift happens due to a personal decision. It's not quite the same as some movements of Christianity (which more or less require a declaration of faith and that's about it), but neither is it a closed club like the Druze faith.

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