Finland: Broadband Access is a Legal Right

[Nessus]

How is it ironic? Any discussion with you is like guesting on the fucking Colbert report

[Dreadnaught]

You're so intelligent, I never realized it was masking parochialism.

[Nessus]

You're so intelligent, I never realized it was masking parochialism.

*shrug* You and Low-key seem to share tendencies. It's not narrow-minded if one's not willing to indulge your fetishes, you know

[Dreadnaught]

Yeah, because he and I have a lot in common.

[Nessus]

Yeah, because he and I have a lot in common.

It's because of stuff like this that one doesn't like to post with you, you know? Well obviously you can't know, but the point stands

[Dreadnaught]

'Doesn't. You're assuming because Lewk and I agree on maybe one or two issues, we're anything alike. And thus you shouldn't engage with me. What garbage.

I came here asking for your perspective and deferring to your knowledge of something that seems to have been sensationalized in foreign media. Instead you declined and mumbled that I'm like Lewk.

That's ridiculous. You've just never had much of a penchant for going into details on something, despite your obvious intelligence and attention to detail.

[Ominous Gamer]

While we have all made our fair share of comparing recent Dread to Lewk, Lowkey stands for Loki right?

[littlelolligagged]

Lowkey=Icky=Loki.

It could conceivably be helpful for some people if we could just change everyone's usernames to what Nessie and I choose to call them, but since we have differences of opinions on some of you that could get irritating.

[Dreadnaught]

It appears I also didn't pay attention to details and misread. But Nessie's point is still garbage. Loki and I have a few more views in common, but we still have very different styles. And it still seems like this is just Nessus not wanting to actually discuss something and educate people.

[Ominous Gamer]

are you honestly throwing a digital tantrum because conversations with you suck?

[Dreadnaught]

No, because they don't. Nessus just can't have an exchange with someone and possibly disagree and discuss the details. Even details about why I apparently suck and why I'm like Loki. Or why Loki sucks.

The reason I can tell is because, as I said before, I'm deferring to her to run through how this looks on her end. I'm not going to jump down her throat, I'm not going to rant at the Godless Finns. I think I view this place less by the personalities than by the particular lifestyles and issues that surround everyone. But some people tend to view this place more through the prism of personalities.

[Loki]

I'm confused where the "price ceiling below cost" claim came from.

Unless I'm wildly off-mark here, the purpose of this legislation is to force companies to provide broadband to people in rural areas at prices not far above what they charge people in urban areas. The reality is that if the relevant companies did not take a loss on providing such services, those services would already be provided, and there would be no reason for the legislation. Instead, the Finnish government is forcing companies to provide broadband when the amount they can charge does not justify the cost of providing the service.

are you honestly throwing a digital tantrum because conversations with you suck?

Wait, Nessus has been trolling for half a dozen posts, and you're accusing Dread of throwing a tantrum? Are you totally incapable of viewing people yo udisagree with as something other than stupid, malevalent villains?

[Aimless]

The reality is that if the relevant companies did not take a loss on providing such services, those services would already be provided

Steely said just a few posts back that Finns could get satellite broadband at approximately that cost

The reality is that not all companies care about the margins. If the world were as you describe it in the above quote, then we'd have a lot more services and products than we have now. The reality is that sometimes companies prefer to make greater profits over smaller ones Starbucks profits from selling you a short cappuccino but they refuse to put it on the menu because they prefer to sell you a tall one instead.

Are you totally incapable of viewing people you disagree with as something other than stupid, malevalent villains?

[Nessus]

It appears I also didn't pay attention to details and misread. But Nessie's point is still garbage. Loki and I have a few more views in common, but we still have very different styles. And it still seems like this is just Nessus not wanting to actually discuss something and educate people.

You are different from Low-key in many ways, yes, but that's hardly a reason to have a discussion with you. At least with Low-key one tends to know where they stand, you're often utterly un-relatable. Case in point,

I think I view this place less by the personalities than by the particular lifestyles and issues that surround everyone. But some people tend to view this place more through the prism of personalities.

What the fuck is even going on here? It reads to me like a huge load of pretentious rubbish, which probably just means I didn't understand what you were getting at behind the feel-good advertisement speak. How do you expect me to "educate" you (Jesus Christ there's another pound of pomp for everybody) when we're too alien to converse?

Wait, Nessus has been trolling for half a dozen posts

I don't think that word means what you think it does. I genuinely was not interested in an exchange with Dread and was saying so; I would have been trolling if I wanted to see him plead for my words of experience or something. The drama explosion up there was not my intent, and it's usually the intent that dictates the severity of the crime, isn't it

[Aimless]

Well in that case please enlighten me, because I have nfi what you were talking about either

[Nessus]

Well in that case please enlighten me, because I have nfi what you were talking about either

It's actually mostly unrelated to this piece of Glenn Beck rage, but one that'd probably have him crapping his pants all the same. What I meant was that if the holotubes are going to be a state-guaranteed right, it will most likely mean that the various county and state offices, such as the ones feeding all of the people who failed at the bootstrap maneuver, can no longer decide whether to accept cybertronic forms and papers on a case-by-case basis.

Incidentally, vis a vis your Starbucks point at Low-key, this is another classic example of where the free markets offer a solution, but not the best one for the people involved, where best is defined as something other than generating the most profit. I don't know why he's crying about companies being forced to do this and that like we're building a bunch of Internet-gulags, though, I'm of the impression that the infrastructure for this is already largely available. But ideology comes first, as usual.

[Nessus]

On second thought, since this place seems to thrive on grudges that last years:

I'm sorry I was flippant, Dread. I made a stupid grammar joke and figured I'd get back to you with a more serious and thought-out response the next day, when I wasn't lit up like Macy's parade. It's unfair to withhold information even if one has to wade through your increasingly right-wing rhetoric in the process!

[RandBlade]

Unless I'm wildly off-mark here, the purpose of this legislation is to force companies to provide broadband to people in rural areas at prices not far above what they charge people in urban areas. The reality is that if the relevant companies did not take a loss on providing such services, those services would already be provided, and there would be no reason for the legislation. Instead, the Finnish government is forcing companies to provide broadband when the amount they can charge does not justify the cost of providing the service.

Except the Finnish ISPs are already providing satellite broadband for relatively cheap.

[Steely Glint]

Actually, the link I provided was for a British ISP. I was just looking for an indication for cost. Though they do do all of Europe. Anyway, the "price ceiling" is way above what you'd expect to pay for 1meg Internet anywhere, urban or rural.

[Nessus]

Actually, the link I provided was for a British ISP. I was just looking for an indication for cost. Though they do do all of Europe. Anyway, the "price ceiling" is way above what you'd expect to pay for 1meg Internet anywhere, urban or rural.

GUBMENT IS BOOGEYMAN

GUBMENT EVIL

GUBMENT NEMESIS

ADAM SMITH!

[Aimless]

Actually, the link I provided was for a British ISP. I was just looking for an indication for cost. Though they do do all of Europe. Anyway, the "price ceiling" is way above what you'd expect to pay for 1meg Internet anywhere, urban or rural.

And since it's not even as if the ISPs will bear the cost of hooking up the last few thousand Finnish homes it's like...

It's actually mostly unrelated to this piece of Glenn Beck rage, but one that'd probably have him crapping his pants all the same. What I meant was that if the holotubes are going to be a state-guaranteed right, it will most likely mean that the various county and state offices, such as the ones feeding all of the people who failed at the bootstrap maneuver, can no longer decide whether to accept cybertronic forms and papers on a case-by-case basis.

Probably save you lot a ton of money in administrative costs (= fired administrators )

Incidentally, vis a vis your Starbucks point at Low-key, this is another classic example of where the free markets offer a solution, but not the best one for the people involved, where best is defined as something other than generating the most profit. I don't know why he's crying about companies being forced to do this and that like we're building a bunch of Internet-gulags, though, I'm of the impression that the infrastructure for this is already largely available. But ideology comes first, as usual.

I dunno, maybe he gets as mixed up about what could be/should be/is as I do

If the objection is that it'll result in higher prices for consumers, then that's one thing. But the notion that it'll lead to losses for companies strikes me as inaccurate (unless you count the inability to exploit a monopoly or oligopoly as an unacceptable loss ).

The objection that a law such as this is unnecessary strikes me as petty and shows a lack of foresight, but that's just me.




I wonder how this legislation may end up affecting the pricing-schemes of the ISPs in question. I also wonder if they'll include an internet grant for people on welfare

[Nessus]

I wonder how this legislation may end up affecting the pricing-schemes of the ISPs in question. I also wonder if they'll include an internet grant for people on welfare

Probably. At least immigrants on welfare get TVs and such, goddamn darkies

[Khendraja'aro]

It appears I also didn't pay attention to details and misread. But Nessie's point is still garbage. Loki and I have a few more views in common, but we still have very different styles. And it still seems like this is just Nessus not wanting to actually discuss something and educate people.

Yeah, you have the style of not answering questions and trying to evade those questions if you don't like the answers they'd force you to give.

[Ominous Gamer]

As suspected, and already mentioned...

it will be difficult for the authorities to cut off people suspected of illegal file-sharing.

Law was an attack againist the retarded trend of "3 strikes, you're offline" and the industries' hardon for turning the government and ISPs into their personal police force.

[Aimless]

US is hopping on the broadband train:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...-countries.ars

[Dreadnaught]

This whole thing is probably a waste of money.

That being said, if we're going to do this, we should lay-down the best and most comprehensive fiber network possible given the budget. This does seem like a low goal.

[Ominous Gamer]

US is hopping on the broadband train:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...-countries.ars

FCC responses translated:

The rationale is that this is the best they can do with a legislative branch in the pocket of telecom providers.

A slightly older article on the $200 billion, mostly unaccounted for, to support broadband plans.
Its amazing the promises made by FIOS that have thus far fallen flat. Thanks to a monopoly of broadband providers almost everywhere, FIOS currently isn't any better than what cable providers offer, in quality and price. People bitch about how spread out America is, how comparing America to smaller countries in terms of broadband speed isn't fair. Thats bullshit. America has cities and locations that are as dense or denser than locations in other countries that have 10x the access speed we have. What happens in these American cities? Providers like AT&T and Comcast buckle under bad configurations and poor service, and the consumers get blamed for abusing the service

Google is already sticking its dick in consumer fiber access, it needs to hurry the fuck up. Maybe after that they can fix their google checkout, and if the world was perfect set up something to challenge ticketmaster.

[Aimless]

This whole thing is probably a waste of money.

That being said, if we're going to do this, we should lay-down the best and most comprehensive fiber network possible given the budget. This does seem like a low goal.

I'm not sure why this would be a waste of money. Broadband internet is an excellent way to connect a home to the rest of the world. Connect it to everything from youtube to your place of work. I'm beginning to think this sort of intiative is as sensible for a government as the building and the management of good roads and railroads would be.

[Dreadnaught]

Yes, but we have enormous highways in some places that don't go anywhere productive and sit there nearly empty most of the time. I hesitate on the "if you build it, they will come" mentality of this. Building a new fiber-optic trunk to Utica, NY isn't going to save the economy of Utica, NY because it's still generally a terrible place to do business.

[Illusions]

What happens in these American cities? Providers like AT&T and Comcast buckle under bad configurations and poor service, and the consumers get blamed for abusing the service

Cablevision through Optimum Online actually offers 100 mbps download and 15 mbps upload speeds through their fiber network...

...however there is a one time setup fee of $300 and it costs almost $100 a month.