Immigration cauldron boils over in Arizona

[']['ear]

I agree Termite, Obama really is bucking the polls on this. But in the process he's also appearing to be radical. A few years ago my thinking was to reform/open-up the immigration process and the border would become more secure and controllable. But it's become clear that the border is a freaking mess, and I'm getting appalled that this administration seems so unwilling to seriously control it.

What do you mean "control it?" A large part of this is Bush's mess, Obama has increased the border patrol, and illegal immigration dropped precipitously with the recession. The "mess" is a lot less worse than it was four or five years ago, when a housing boom provided lots of great construction jobs for illegals.

We're never going to have a healthy debate about this issue until our southern border is less of a convenient route for trafficking, which BTW is destabilizing other parts of Latin America besides Mexico.

That is, nonetheless, a separate issue from illegal immigration. But yes, I very much agree that the drug trade is a huge problem, and border control is part of it. Do you propose that we create "fortress America?

What is the right track?

TACK, you ignoramous. It's a nautical term frequently applied in discussion about strategy, since when and where one tacks is a critical decision in wild-powered nautical events involving sped (races, war). Both England and the US used to rely heavily on wind-powered nautical might, and such metaphors saturate our language. For a crash course, I'd recommend the Patrick O'Brien books. Don't worry, there's nothing dirty liberal about them.

Fun fact: The Gestapo didn't ask for citizens' papers.

Really? I suppose it was more peons doing that. SA?

We all know this whole thing is race-driven, regardless of what the language is. Guaranteed cops will be saying "yeah, that guy looks like a wetback. Pull him over." I've got no problems with enforcing immigration laws in the course of normal law enforcement. I'm VERY much opposed to pulling people over just as part of dragnet searches. And I'd imagine that any anti-government conservative would feel the same way about increasing police intrusiveness. I know how Cain would feel about this, and I'd agree with him.

[Nessus]

Really? I suppose it was more peons doing that. SA?

The SA was a grass-roots organization comprised of rowdy, violent and young people who certainly didn't bother with I.D., inasmuch as such existed in Weimar Germany, they simply beat down on those perceived as "wrong" and alien.

[Dreadnaught]

What do you mean "control it?" A large part of this is Bush's mess, Obama has increased the border patrol, and illegal immigration dropped precipitously with the recession. The "mess" is a lot less worse than it was four or five years ago, when a housing boom provided lots of great construction jobs for illegals.

That is, nonetheless, a separate issue from illegal immigration. But yes, I very much agree that the drug trade is a huge problem, and border control is part of it. Do you propose that we create "fortress America?

Dude, does this really have to be an Obama-Bush contest to see who can felate which President?

My point is we can't decouple border security from immigration anymore. Obama's piddly dispatch of some troops is a weak gesture and it hasn't helped -- the fact that Arizona would pass a law like this is basically a cry for help at a situation that, as you said, has only gotten worse over the past five years. Are we even a functioning nation if we can't enforce our own border from large numbers of illegal migrants and drug traffickers who are tearing-apart our southern neighbor?

I don't deny the positive role that the people who have illegally immigrated play in our society and our economy. And I think many should have a way to become citizens. But they are nonetheless part of a total loss of control on our southern border that you and I don't have to directly live with because we don't live along our southern border.

If Mexico keeps stumbling down the path towards being a failed state, are you confident that we could shut down the border if we tried?

[LittleFuzzy]

TACK, you ignoramous.

In his defense "the right track is also regular usage.

[Illusions]

In his defense "the right track is also regular usage.

I'd say it lines up more with Lewk's thinking style as well, as with a sailboat you can usually go where-ever the wind takes you, where-as with a train you're pretty much limited to going in the same direction once you choose a track, unless you can make a stop along the way or new track options appear...

[Lewkowski]

I'm actually asking what Tear's border policy would be.

[']['ear]

Dude, does this really have to be an Obama-Bush contest to see who can felate which President?

So you're admitting to felating Bush?

My point is we can't decouple border security from immigration anymore. Obama's piddly dispatch of some troops is a weak gesture and it hasn't helped -- the fact that Arizona would pass a law like this is basically a cry for help at a situation that, as you said, has only gotten worse over the past five years. Are we even a functioning nation if we can't enforce our own border from large numbers of illegal migrants and drug traffickers who are tearing-apart our southern neighbor?

Actually, I made the point that things had gotten substantially better since the recession.

And this bill has nothing to do with drug trafficking, so your repeatedly trotting it out is flat-out dishonest. Totally agreed, we need to control drug trafficking at the border, and haven't done enough in that regard. Profiling motorists throughout the state is hardly going to help that.

I don't deny the positive role that the people who have illegally immigrated play in our society and our economy. And I think many should have a way to become citizens. But they are nonetheless part of a total loss of control on our southern border that you and I don't have to directly live with because we don't live along our southern border.

Ask the local restauranteurs, farmers and builders how horrible it is to live with it. No jobs = no illegals. The business community has no interest in stemming the flow of illegals, which is why the GOP has dodged this issue time after time (and which is why blaming Obama for it is the height of hypocrisy. Where was Bush on this issue 2001-2007?). Nor do folks who enjoy cheap landscaping, nannies, etc. It's the most hypocritical mess I've ever seen. People likes their cheap services and goods. But they also like to scapegoat the little brown illegals.

If Mexico keeps stumbling down the path towards being a failed state, are you confident that we could shut down the border if we tried?

We have quite a large army, and I'm sure they'd prefer to patrol THAT desert than others.

Besides, it's our own stupid drug policies and our inability to enforce them that is driving Mexico to failure at the hands of drug lords. Look to your sanctimonious "thou shalt not do drugs" neighbors if you want to get pissed off about narcotraffick and the mess that is Mexico. Garden variety illegal immigration, driven almost sntirely by jobs, is NOT what you're pissing about.

I'm actually asking what Tear's border policy would be.

No jobs = no illegals. Prosecute aggressively for people who hire illegals. They KNOW these guys are illegal. You have to have documentation to hire somebody, because you need to do paperwork on them.

But I don't actually have much problem with it as long as there aren't problems with violent crimes (and there aren't). Throughout the US people love the cheap services and goods we get because of illegals. And generally they work harder at tougher jobs than most effete Americans are willing to do. That's a free market, chum. Businesses want cheap labor, and they get it. FAR, FAR easier to police that than to emulate Israel and build some ridiculous wall from the Gulf to San Diego.

[Dreadnaught]

Nice deflection, dude. I wasn't talking about the specifics of the law, but about how out-of-control our border is. It's so out of control that a law like this can be passed. Various elements of our country are out of touch with the loss of control we've had at the border.

[Lewkowski]

No jobs = no illegals. Prosecute aggressively for people who hire illegals. They KNOW these guys are illegal. You have to have documentation to hire somebody, because you need to do paperwork on them.

SS fraud does exist you know. BTW the AZ law DID go after businesses somewhat. Heck there was an Op-Ed from the right complaining about the law for being anti-business.

But I don't actually have much problem with it as long as there aren't problems with violent crimes (and there aren't).

Oh wow that's news to me... so how many crimes are too much?

Throughout the US people love the cheap services and goods we get because of illegals. And generally they work harder at tougher jobs than most effete Americans are willing to do. That's a free market, chum.

Of course. The benefit is cheaper goods and services. The cost is lower wages. I'm not in favor of keeping all immigrants out. I would be in favor vastly increasing the amount of legal immigration that occurs as long as they know how to speak English and don't have a criminal record from where they come from. This nation was founded on immigrants, I just want to keep out the trash and bring some much needed law and order to it.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I just want to keep out the trash

So emigrate already.

[Khendraja'aro]

Nice deflection, dude. I wasn't talking about the specifics of the law, but about how out-of-control our border is. It's so out of control that a law like this can be passed. Various elements of our country are out of touch with the loss of control we've had at the border.

Hey, we have some experience with building a wall! Need some help?

[Aimless]

Germany's brilliant new stimulus-plan??

[']['ear]

Nice deflection, dude. I wasn't talking about the specifics of the law, but about how out-of-control our border is. It's so out of control that a law like this can be passed. Various elements of our country are out of touch with the loss of control we've had at the border.

Really? How out of control is it? I mean, compared to your usual gigantic border? I think you have yet to prove this point.

SS fraud does exist you know. BTW the AZ law DID go after businesses somewhat. Heck there was an Op-Ed from the right complaining about the law for being anti-business.

So the Right has attacked the only part of the bill that makes sense?

And every employee has a fake ID and SS card? Bullshit. Sure a small minority does, but most just walk in, get paid in cash, and walk out. Many are hired on a week-to-week or even day-to-day basis. Employers know damn well who is legal and who isn't. And frankly I don' blame them, nor think that they should be punished. They want cheap labor, they have cheap labor.

But if you're going to crack down on illegal immigration, the employers is the only rational point to do so. Much better than building a thousand mile wall and staffing it with many tens of thousands of armed enforcers, and much better than fascist pulling people over and asking for papers.

Oh wow that's news to me... so how many crimes are too much?

I just don't give a shit that they are here illegally. They drive our economy, they don't do any harm. Immigrant families tend to be a lot less violent than actual citizens.

Of course. The benefit is cheaper goods and services. The cost is lower wages. I'm not in favor of keeping all immigrants out. I would be in favor vastly increasing the amount of legal immigration that occurs as long as they know how to speak English and don't have a criminal record from where they come from. This nation was founded on immigrants, I just want to keep out the trash and bring some much needed law and order to it.

Ah, the truth comes out. You don't like brown people who speak Spanish. Guess what, ace? They work harder than good white Americans like you. I was just talking to our Costa Rican custodian as she emptied trash cans last night. She was saying how tired she was because she started house cleaning at 9, and then reported to work for her second job as a custodian at 4:30. Top that, you snotty bigot.

So emigrate already.

You can have him. We don't need his kind of trash. Certainly he brings no exceptional skills to our country.

[Nessus]

And every employee has a fake ID and SS card? Bullshit. Sure a small minority does, but most just walk in, get paid in cash, and walk out. Many are hired on a week-to-week or even day-to-day basis. Employers know damn well who is legal and who isn't. And frankly I don' blame them, nor think that they should be punished. They want cheap labor, they have cheap labor.

But if you're going to crack down on illegal immigration, the employers is the only rational point to do so. Much better than building a thousand mile wall and staffing it with many tens of thousands of armed enforcers, and much better than fascist pulling people over and asking for papers.

While Lewk most likely isn't quite clever enough to be crypto-anything, you might consider that some of the libertarian-leaning anti-gummint ding-a-lings aren't really against gray economy, particularly the kind which exploits cheap labour and helps circumvent safety regulations and so on. Be the labour immigrant or not.

[']['ear]

I'm well aware of that. The fact that his not wanting "trash" in his country trumps his automatic pro-business attitudes speaks volumes about him.

[Nessus]

I'm well aware of that. The fact that his not wanting "trash" in his country trumps his automatic pro-business attitudes speaks volumes about him.

But as long as they're a derided, feared and loathed under-class, they can be exploited 'til the Rapture, and he won't even have to look at 'em in his tighty-whity neighbourhood. The ones captured by the police can be detained or deported, but ostensibly his pro-business thinking also includes the idea that the dirty Messicans will have a perpetual impetus to keep flowing to the US to be exploited and then spat out again. And the crime they bring with them, mostly in the form of illegal narcotics and prostitution, can be dealt with by quartering and drawing, and so on.

[']['ear]

Could be. But as you said, that would require him to be crypto-something.

I do think you've nailed it though. I think that certain political powers that be are just manipulating fear and bigotry to maintain the status quo while appearing to be "bold men of action." My bet is a wink wink at the businessmen, and then only modest enforcement t "send some of that trash back where they came from." The question is whether they lose more of the Latino vote. The whiff of bigotry, which is definitely floating around this, might turn a lot of otherwise good Republicans away. Funny how that always happens with the GOP and minority groups!

The other gullible group is the Dreads, who think a) that the border is some horrifically dangerous place, and b) that this law would do jack shit about the drug trade that feeds so much US crime and destabilizes Mexico. Hey, just fucking get rid of the demand (illegality of drugs) and the organized crime will just evaporate.

[Nessus]

If anything, the perception that the rest of society is constantly hostile towards illegals, and thus exposure via complaining or speaking up would lead to expulsion/lynching/gang rape or what have you would only benefit those employers who exploit illegal immigrant labour.

As for the Latino vote, well. It's been my impression that the impoverished racial minorities in the US have a long history of voting against their own interests, though I suppose this black movement behind daddy 'Bama is proof otherwise. However, the Democrats are currently tangling with the issue of gay marriage and other topics that send ripples of hostility through the Latino community, so it's not that cut and dry.

[']['ear]

Dried. Cut and dried. Your English is so impressively idiomatic that I get a woody at catching you in a rare mistake.

[Nessus]

I'm actually a Chinese room

[Aimless]

Few native speakers "understand" idioms.

[Aimless]

I'm actually a Chinese room

Obviously a broken one

[Nessus]

Obviously a broken one

Undergoing repairs, though

[Dreadnaught]

Really? How out of control is it? I mean, compared to your usual gigantic border? I think you have yet to prove this point.

Are you actually arguing that our border with Mexico hasn't become more permeable and violent in the past decade? When was the last time you spent some time in a border state dude.

I don't think we should have low standards when it comes to border security, whether our border is gigantic or not.

Dried. Cut and dried. Your English is so impressively idiomatic that I get a woody at catching you in a rare mistake.

"Cut and dry" is sort of a legitimate variant though, a lot of people don't say "dried" in the past tense when they use that phrase out loud.

[GGT]

There were articles from a migrant farm worker union titled, "Take Our Farm Jobs, Please!"

Not so much from the illegal standpoint, but what migrant farm workers do for crap wages and working conditions, with no benefits. Back breaking work in the hot sun, following the harvest trail from state-to-state or season-to-season. Or filling small towns with meat packing plants, doing the dirty work many citizens won't.

Thousands of jobs have been posted for laborers, but just a handful of unemployed have taken the offer. There's the void that illegal immigrants fill. Until that's addressed, none of these bills or laws are going to go anywhere good.



EDIT gosh, this forum has turned into like a small town, where the streets are rolled up at midnight?

Anyway, as much as many posters here deride unions or organized labor, I almost wish that's how this had been solved. Instead of focusing on who's illegal, or crossing the border to be cheap labor, or "taking away jobs from citizens" or "costing tax payers money", sometimes I think it would have worked better to focus on working conditions. Period.

No matter who's doing the work, if their conditions were the priority (proper breaks, safety precautions, decent wages, sanitation needs) maybe we'd have made more progress by now. Instead of near sweat-shop environments, where the most desperate can be exploited for the lowest expectations/bottom dollar, we might have some minimum standards. We really could treat laborers with some dignity and fairness, as a matter of conducting Good Business.

Hell, even the Chinese are doing this now for their factory workers. It would raise the prices of our food a bit, but it might be worth it overall.

[GGT]

....Of course. The benefit is cheaper goods and services. The cost is lower wages.

Of course. There are other "costs" you never mention, probably because they're Humanitarian. Like hard-working humans forced to urinate or defecate in the corn or strawberry fields they're laboring in, because the closest porta-potty is five miles away. Or the allergic skin rashes or URI infections from being in direct contact with the chemicals sprayed on the produce, no way to get rapid treatment once they've been exposed, let alone ways to reduce their exposure risks. That would mean a benevolent employer who sees the workers as human beings instead of cheap replaceable laborers. And/or a gummint agency of some sort that protects the worker from exploitative employers.

I'm not in favor of keeping all immigrants out. I would be in favor vastly increasing the amount of legal immigration that occurs as long as they know how to speak English and don't have a criminal record from where they come from.

You're really saying you approve of cheap labor, as long as it's "legal". Speaking English has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of US citizens who can't speak English very well, or not at all.

This nation was founded on immigrants, I just want to keep out the trash and bring some much needed law and order to it.

And how do you define "trash", exactly? Whatever your definition is, we've had plenty of "trash" before any illegals started crossing borders. Indeed, many of our first immigrants were considered "trash", before we romanticized immigrants of another era that built our nation. You're probably related to them, as most of us are.

You also like to bandy about our "Law and Order" without giving credence to laws that protect workers from being, basically, exploited and stuck in servitude. No wonder you object to schools with ESL, and use language as the metric of "who belongs or not" at the same time.

Some circles of people would call that being hypocritical at best, and bigoted at worst. But if you wrap yourself in the American flag and call it conservatism, you expect to get a pass?

[earthJoker]

Dried. Cut and dried.

The dictionaries say both are correct to use. But from the original context dried is more precise. Anyway something that is dried is also dry, the opposite isn't always true. (You can argue if something is still dried if it was dried and wetted again after, would that be wet dried herbs?)

[GGT]

I say "cut and dry".

That means the deed is clearly done, it's over; a cut flower without water means no blooming buds. Technically, drying or being dried is another process.

[Nessus]

Quit killing his creepy boner, guys

[GGT]

But it's funny and entertaining! After all, this forum seems to close shop at midnight EST.