Why?

[Nessus]

I have to say so far I agree with Hazir and Lolli so far. Folks are really forgetting what they came here wanting, and underestimating what they asked for.

What does this even mean?

What did we want when we "came" here? It was a reaction to some corporate ass-hole clamping down discussion. That there was such a speedy response, that it was made possible for us to migrate here as some whole, that was extra-ordinary.

But I do not think it is fantastical to have a different set of expectations when one is having a piss on someone's corporate Internet backyard, versus a collective effort to create a community. Not for one milli-second do I underestimate what I ask for, because all too often do I fail those expectations, I cannot behave in a way befitting what I'd like to see from others. We've had years and years within which to grow to hate one another, I don't think it's any great secret that there has been and will continue to be a whole lot of passive-aggressive horse-shit towards each other. In many ways, it is not okay to grow up, or change your mind. You know?

This all sounds like a load and I don't know if you got anything out of it, but there it is. For years, the CC was a pot to take a piss in, just to see what would come out. I admit that it is infinitely childish of me to expect that that self-same pot would come out as anything better now that we're running the show. But I did expect that, and do. This isn't some play-ground or hobby for you and Randy to shove about in your spare time. Maybe it is unfair that we ask for this kind of responsibility from you, because it was all such a speedy reactionary jump, you didn't ask for this responsibility, it was just the safe option in uncertain times. Is it really that out-landish to ask for a common set of rules, among adults? I don't pretend to have some kind of magic bullet here, but to me it speaks volumes that having a simple rules thread took months of teeth-pulling. It speaks about the attitudes involved.

I suspect I am very unfair in what I expect from people running a forum. If we're unable to have any decency towards one another, what is the point of enforcing it from above? But it doesn't exist in a vacuum, we're still in transition from the jackassery that was. It may indeed be possible that we can never escape the passive-aggressive, petulant and childish hatred we've come to have for one another. But it cannot be allowed to dominate discussion, in my opinion. That is what I ask for, from you as moderators. To make it clear that it is not okay to be a dick. Or a cunt. Is that too much?

[Ominous Gamer]

Can't help but wonder if newAtari's reaction to the CC would have been different if it wasn't a treated like a "pot to piss in."
I thought it obvious it wasn't something to aim in repeating, even if most members (thats me!) revert to the behavior that encourages that image. Not like my bitching on that is new either, I've tried to bring it up before we lost our first home.

[Nessus]

Can't help but wonder if newAtari's reaction to the CC would have been different if it wasn't a treated like a "pot to piss in."

She shouldn't have worn that short skirt, huh? I doubt the underlying currents of hate had anything to do with the arbitrary abuse of power. Even if we had all sung Kum-bay-yah til the sun came down, the new administration would have clamped down on us because we didn't loathe faggots, communists or liberals, or whatever it was that was ruining Atari's business.

The disservice we did, and do, was to one another, not to Atari.

[Ominous Gamer]

not the same thing at all. The admins had more than once mentioned that the forums were money makers for Atari; and we were crapping on that in a very violent and spectacular way, being on top of the subforums listed in Google when someone searched for ataricommunity. Yes it was towards each other, but there was a reason so few users made the transition from the game subforums. The idea that users needed a thicker skin to survive the CC was horse shit.

Did Atari royally screw up the transition? Obviously, but it doesn't mean that the intent was wrong.

[Nessus]

Like I tried to write in my latest shit on Dread, there were different expectations then, because it was a different place. For better or worse, Hell I came there to be greeted by ass-holes such as Parmenio who wanted nothing but to loathe people. The atmosphere of passive-aggressive, hateful shit was there to start with; if that lost business to Atari then I'm glad, but what I'm asking for here is that that atmosphere does not have to keep existing under new hosting. Like I said, I'm sure it's a childish and vain hope, but I'd like to air it all the same.

[Loki]

I think it's just a vicious cycle, where people who wouldn't normally be nasty, even on a forum, end up that way because that's the way they are treated and the way they see others being treated. No sense in going over why that is the case, but I think the level of discourse has improved substantially in the last week, and I don't think it required anyone to pull their punches in terms of discussion/debate. The key is that this kind of behavior continues, when it will hopefully become a virtuous cycle. We shouldn't be utopian and expect everyone to continue to play nice, but the reaction to someone who doesn't shouldn't be to flame them, but to report them and for the mods to warn them.

[Nessus]

I think it's just a vicious cycle, where people who wouldn't normally be nasty, even on a forum, end up that way because that's the way they are treated and the way they see others being treated. No sense in going over why that is the case, but I think the level of discourse has improved substantially in the last week, and I don't think it required anyone to pull their punches in terms of discussion/debate. The key is that this kind of behavior continues, when it will hopefully become a virtuous cycle. We shouldn't be utopian and expect everyone to continue to play nice, but the reaction to someone who doesn't shouldn't be to flame them, but to report them and for the mods to warn them.

I suppose part of my bleating stems from that; that there hasn't been a visible response from the moderation to the ass-holery. I would hate to see anyone banned, or things like that, but in some way I think it'd be nice if we had someone around who'd wag their finger and point out that this is not adult behaviour? Most of us are intelligent and can de-construct each other's posts until the cows come home, but sometimes the motivations behind that are petty.

Right now I feel that if I hit the report button, the response will be non-existent! I'm not really sure how to fix that feeling. Can a group of people congregating mostly to heap scorn on one another moderate the tone of that scorn? I honestly do not know.

[Loki]

I suppose part of my bleating stems from that; that there hasn't been a visible response from the moderation to the ass-holery. I would hate to see anyone banned, or things like that, but in some way I think it'd be nice if we had someone around who'd wag their finger and point out that this is not adult behaviour? Most of us are intelligent and can de-construct each other's posts until the cows come home, but sometimes the motivations behind that are petty.

Right now I feel that if I hit the report button, the response will be non-existent! I'm not really sure how to fix that feeling. Can a group of people congregating mostly to heap scorn on one another moderate the tone of that scorn? I honestly do not know.

I agree that some warnings should be dished out (hold off on the bans unless there is no change in behavior), but we both know that the mods will be accused of favoritism or holding grudges if they do so, which gives them a pretty strong incentive to do nothing. I think a few clear and concise rules would do the trick for now, like "no personal insults directed at other members", and maybe provide some examples of what is against the rules and what isn't.

[Nessus]

I agree that some warnings should be dished out (hold off on the bans unless there is no change in behavior), but we both know that the mods will be accused of favoritism or holding grudges if they do so, which gives them a pretty strong incentive to do nothing. I think a few clear and concise rules would do the trick for now, like "no personal insults directed at other members", and maybe provide some examples of what is against the rules and what isn't.

Oh most definitely, Hell I'd probably be the first one yelling at the moderation because I'd be likely to think they hold right-wing biases.

Some of the problem might be that because we're all so smart and cock-sure about it, if we're given an envelope we'll push it right into the ocean. I'm not sure how effective any rule against dickery could be since people'd have a leisurely time trying to work around it. I'm contradicting myself pretty hard here, but I really don't have any answers to offer.

[LittleFuzzy]

I have to say so far I agree with Hazir and Lolli so far. Folks are really forgetting what they came here wanting, and underestimating what they asked for.

I came here because everyone else did when Atari decided they weren't going to allow basic off-topic discussion in their off-topic section anymore. I've been asking for more active moderation from you and Rand for years. There is a middle ground between your preferred almost entirely inactive approach and a massive silencing of the community.

[Loki]

Oh most definitely, Hell I'd probably be the first one yelling at the moderation because I'd be likely to think they hold right-wing biases.

Some of the problem might be that because we're all so smart and cock-sure about it, if we're given an envelope we'll push it right into the ocean. I'm not sure how effective any rule against dickery could be since people'd have a leisurely time trying to work around it. I'm contradicting myself pretty hard here, but I really don't have any answers to offer.

Then the mods should enforce the spirit of the law, even if the letter of it isn't violated. I think there are some very clear cases where people deserve to be warned. For the less clear cases, the mods should use their discretion, but they shouldn't always lean on the side of generosity.

[Hazir]

Oh most definitely, Hell I'd probably be the first one yelling at the moderation because I'd be likely to think they hold right-wing biases.

Some of the problem might be that because we're all so smart and cock-sure about it, if we're given an envelope we'll push it right into the ocean. I'm not sure how effective any rule against dickery could be since people'd have a leisurely time trying to work around it. I'm contradicting myself pretty hard here, but I really don't have any answers to offer.

You can be 100% certain people will find a way to work around such rules. It's not that hard to dish out venomous insults in a nice or civil-like way.

What I don't like about this debate so far is that it really must be about people who are regulars in this forum, but that people are calling out Dread and Rand (where is he in this debate by the way) to do something about 'them'. As if we are talking about some unknown hooligans and are complaining that 'the police isn't doing anything'.

That is not the case, and I also don't think tighter rules is the solution. It's just avoiding your own responsability of confronting people with the fact that you don't want to put up with their behaviour (posting). If you don't like people and think they are trolling, there is an easy way to deal with it; don't feed the troll.

For God's sake people we're talking about a group that's smaller than my family and it's shocking to me that people seriously think we need formal rules to for the interaction in such a tiny group.

[Hazir]

Can't help but wonder if newAtari's reaction to the CC would have been different if it wasn't a treated like a "pot to piss in."
I thought it obvious it wasn't something to aim in repeating, even if most members (thats me!) revert to the behavior that encourages that image. Not like my bitching on that is new either, I've tried to bring it up before we lost our first home.

Oh come on, that place would have gone either way, the rules as they were enforced kept it pretty tidy as forums for adults go. The reason for CC's demise can be found in the fact that its very existence was incompatible with Atari's new policies.

I can assure you that it never was 'a pot to piss in' for me. And neither is this place. I come here to read what other people are writing, sometimes I engage and sometimes I don't. The only thing that annoys me is the silly way in which people are demanding 'sources' all the time as if not providing those are the be all and end all of a debate/discussion on an informal forum.

[Dreadnaught]

You can be 100% certain people will find a way to work around such rules. It's not that hard to dish out venomous insults in a nice or civil-like way.

What I don't like about this debate so far is that it really must be about people who are regulars in this forum, but that people are calling out Dread and Rand (where is he in this debate by the way) to do something about 'them'. As if we are talking about some unknown hooligans and are complaining that 'the police isn't doing anything'.

That is not the case, and I also don't think tighter rules is the solution. It's just avoiding your own responsability of confronting people with the fact that you don't want to put up with their behaviour (posting). If you don't like people and think they are trolling, there is an easy way to deal with it; don't feed the troll.

For God's sake people we're talking about a group that's smaller than my family and it's shocking to me that people seriously think we need formal rules to for the interaction in such a tiny group.

Well said. Nessus, I know a bunch of you have been talking on IRC and think you've identified what's bothering you and that you have to change the moderation here to get what you meant. But you're literally asking us in one post to do things you readily admit you would probably ignore or evade. Do you really want the moderators to approach these things with the idea that some people could get banned for occasional jackassery? Because that's the only way this works.

At Atari I could jump in and ask people to keep it civil, but the subtext was always that this was to prevent someone getting the attention of an Atari exec and shutting the place down. We actually had a close call where a veteran spammed the e-mail addresses of a bunch of folks at Atari with wild claims that Rand and I were anti-American, anti-Semitic racist ghouls. It was a mess, but it gave justification when we dropped in and ask for civility.

I can do that, but it's a bit less consequential unless you are prepared for people to get banned. Because, as you said, people will try to evade the push for civility. Especially if it's a vague mandate to "be civil".

[Ominous Gamer]

For God's sake people we're talking about a group that's smaller than my family and it's shocking to me that people seriously think we need formal rules to for the interaction in such a tiny group.

Again, this is the problem. The idea to act like assholes is ok cause we are so small and close knit. Problem is that would mean the death of a community like this. Its simply not worth the time and money of someone like Wraith to put up with it. We get new signups, from non-atari sources, but they don't stay. Now why you do think that is?

Oh come on, that place would have gone either way, the rules as they were enforced kept it pretty tidy as forums for adults go.

Except it was never meant as a forum for adults. Most of the oldies grew into adults while still on the Atari boards. Doesn't mean that adults aren't welcome. Take a place like the Lego forums as an example of that.

The reason for CC's demise can be found in the fact that its very existence was incompatible with Atari's new policies.

The CC was shut down, while the other subforum community chats remained. That had nothing to do with the new policies, that had to do with us being dicks. The new admins coming to Atari must have experienced one hell of a culture shock seeing the cesspool of the CC. They overreached in their clean up methods, and we responded in kind.

I can assure you that it never was 'a pot to piss in' for me.

You aren't exactly Mary fucking Poppins when it comes to debate, especially when it comes to the EU/EUC. You keep bitching about how the people wanting control are the ones most likely to violate the rules, but I see it as the people asking for moderation at least being able to admit there is a problem.

[Aimless]

You know what, maybe EK's house really isn't ever relevant because its his personal life and he clearly doesn't like it discussed in the horrible context represented by elements of this forum.

I actually agree, I just don't like saying "never"

I actually don't think people's personal lives are relevant to any serious discussion. Everyone is a hypocrite to some extent, but pointing that out in threads serves no purpose other than to inflame. Dismissing someone's argument because they don't live by the logic of that argument or because they might have some ulterior motive for making it is illogical and harmful to debate. I know virtually everyone here has ignored this line of reasoning in the past, including yours truly, but there is no reason to continue to do so in the future.

I know I've been crossing that line more often lately, I dunno why but I keep getting carried away even when I think it's inappropriate for me to do so (even in situations where I can almost justify it to myself by saying "they started it"). I agree though You make a good point about vicious cycles vs. virtuous cycles, and I think that's where we can change things. One way to break the vicious cycle of flaming and dragging old arguments into multiple threads would be for all of us to agree not to punish each other for whatever we see as transgressions.

I dunno 'bout formality, I think we should still be able to tell each other, "Dude, that's just not cool. Leave my mother out of it."

Meh, just rambling here, nvm

[Hazir]

Again, this is the problem. The idea to act like assholes is ok cause we are so small and close knit. Problem is that would mean the death of a community like this. Its simply not worth the time and money of someone like Wraith to put up with it. We get new signups, from non-atari sources, but they don't stay. Now why you do think that is?



Except it was never meant as a forum for adults. Most of the oldies grew into adults while still on the Atari boards. Doesn't mean that adults aren't welcome. Take a place like the Lego forums as an example of that.

The CC was shut down, while the other subforum community chats remained. That had nothing to do with the new policies, that had to do with us being dicks. The new admins coming to Atari must have experienced one hell of a culture shock seeing the cesspool of the CC. They overreached in their clean up methods, and we responded in kind.

You aren't exactly Mary fucking Poppins when it comes to debate, especially when it comes to the EU/EUC. You keep bitching about how the people wanting control are the ones most likely to violate the rules, but I see it as the people asking for moderation at least being able to admit there is a problem.

I'm not going to do that whole CC debate again; it's rather like beating a dead horse.

And yes I know I am not exactly Mary Poppins when it comes to debate yadiydadida. You are also right that I don't see a problem in the way the rule-thumpers see it. What this forum needs to attract more people is not a bunch of nice-rules but a whole bunch of interesting posts. Otherwise we might as well call it quits and simply head over to the home of the IRC maffia.

You'd have exactly the same, without the need to uphold this bulletin-board.

[LittleFuzzy]

I can do that, but it's a bit less consequential unless you are prepared for people to get banned. Because, as you said, people will try to evade the push for civility. Especially if it's a vague mandate to "be civil".

You know how you can lock threads and then unlock them, once you think things have calmed down? I'm pretty sure you're aware of an analogous action with bans. If I'm not mistaken, vBulletin even has temp-bans as a distinct mechanic.

[']['ear]

What does this even mean?

What did we want when we "came" here? It was a reaction to some corporate ass-hole clamping down discussion. That there was such a speedy response, that it was made possible for us to migrate here as some whole, that was extra-ordinary.

But I do not think it is fantastical to have a different set of expectations when one is having a piss on someone's corporate Internet backyard, versus a collective effort to create a community. Not for one milli-second do I underestimate what I ask for, because all too often do I fail those expectations, I cannot behave in a way befitting what I'd like to see from others. We've had years and years within which to grow to hate one another, I don't think it's any great secret that there has been and will continue to be a whole lot of passive-aggressive horse-shit towards each other. In many ways, it is not okay to grow up, or change your mind. You know?

This all sounds like a load and I don't know if you got anything out of it, but there it is. For years, the CC was a pot to take a piss in, just to see what would come out. I admit that it is infinitely childish of me to expect that that self-same pot would come out as anything better now that we're running the show. But I did expect that, and do. This isn't some play-ground or hobby for you and Randy to shove about in your spare time. Maybe it is unfair that we ask for this kind of responsibility from you, because it was all such a speedy reactionary jump, you didn't ask for this responsibility, it was just the safe option in uncertain times. Is it really that out-landish to ask for a common set of rules, among adults? I don't pretend to have some kind of magic bullet here, but to me it speaks volumes that having a simple rules thread took months of teeth-pulling. It speaks about the attitudes involved.

I suspect I am very unfair in what I expect from people running a forum. If we're unable to have any decency towards one another, what is the point of enforcing it from above? But it doesn't exist in a vacuum, we're still in transition from the jackassery that was. It may indeed be possible that we can never escape the passive-aggressive, petulant and childish hatred we've come to have for one another. But it cannot be allowed to dominate discussion, in my opinion. That is what I ask for, from you as moderators. To make it clear that it is not okay to be a dick. Or a cunt. Is that too much?

Bravo! Expressed better in my native tongue than I could, by a Finn.

I came here because everyone else did when Atari decided they weren't going to allow basic off-topic discussion in their off-topic section anymore. I've been asking for more active moderation from you and Rand for years. There is a middle ground between your preferred almost entirely inactive approach and a massive silencing of the community.

Also liked Loki's summary of things.

And no, I'm not IRC mafia, but I strongly agree with this sentiment. There is a middle ground. I don't want to harsh on Dread and RB, because I truly appreciate their efforts. That was then, this is now. Something else is needed.

[GGT]

Strange thread, people. Cutting out the drama, the IRC mafia stuff, or pots calling kettles black....

Maybe separating Debate from Discussion would help better than more moderation?

Some Discussion can be serious and not 'idle' chat at all, or fit in General Chat. Where people expect sources, citations, facts, theory analysis and white paper behavior, that would be Debate Club, with a more 'professional' level of expectations. Personal anecdotes probably won't fit there, let alone personal attacks.

Seems to me that's where all the name-calling and fighting comes from: blurring Discussions and Debates. I've been criticized for starting threads in D & D that "don't belong there", or trying to have fluid conversations instead of academic point-by-point.

If you guys want to attract more pointed Debates with bloggers or think tank readers, then maybe a special spot for Academic Debate would do that? (I thought that was the point of the Blog, but maybe I misunderstood....)


Then people like me would stay in the Discussion threads, where we could discuss philosophies or perspectives and use personal anecdotes, have tangents that ramble, twist and turn, flesh and suss things out....dynamic fluid stuff that might drive an academic nuts.

That's my take on it, anyway. But then, I'm so stupid it's hard to go through life holding my brain in with one hand on my skull. You see. *cough*

[Dreadnaught]

One thing I should mention that OG brought up -- the reason the game-specific CCs stayed at Atari is mainly because Timothy promised he could manage them under the unreasonable rules being proposed. Rand and I maintained the proposed rules didn't make sense and tried to compromise. Oh, and because someone in the CC said something unenthusiastic about America, which offended Phoxe.

[LittleFuzzy]

Strange thread, people. Cutting out the drama, the IRC mafia stuff, or pots calling kettles black....

Maybe separating Debate from Discussion would help better than more moderation?

Some Discussion can be serious and not 'idle' chat at all, or fit in General Chat. Where people expect sources, citations, facts, theory analysis and white paper behavior, that would be Debate Club, with a more 'professional' level of expectations. Personal anecdotes probably won't fit there, let alone personal attacks.[

Then people like me would stay in the Discussion threads, where we could discuss philosophies or perspectives and use personal anecdotes, have tangents that ramble, twist and turn, flesh and suss things out....dynamic fluid stuff that might drive an academic nuts.

That's my take on it, anyway. But then, I'm so stupid it's hard to go through life holding my brain in with one hand on my skull. You see. *cough*

I think any of your discussions can fit in perfectly well in General Chat.

[GGT]

I see. Then I'll just stay in General Chat. Not like there are so many academic threads you start in D & D, to raise the caliber and quality of the place with your debate skills, Fuzzy.

But whatever.

[']['ear]

I think that the distinction between the two forums is pretty unclear. False dichotomy.

But that's a different debate. Having the two different forums hardly alters the tenor of conversations.

[Illusions]

I think that the distinction between the two forums is pretty unclear. False dichotomy.

The distinction is very clear. One is supposed to be for a professional level of discourse and discussion, while the other is supposed to be a lighter atmosphere, like how you'd talk with your friends if you were at a party, gathering, etc., or for discussion of personal topics.

[Aimless]

The distinction is very clear. One is supposed to be for a professional level of discourse and discussion

Er, then clearly there are many different interpretations of those concepts. I don't say this as a criticism but yeah

[Hazir]

The word 'professional' is grossly overstating what D&D is aiming for. It's merely a forum of a more serious nature with topics that are current.

[Aimless]

Just a thought: if we've come to even a vague consensus about being cool at least for a trial period in the D&D then perhaps it might be helpful to notify everyone so that even people who generally ignore the site discussion forum know about the latest forum game.

[']['ear]

The distinction is very clear. One is supposed to be for a professional level of discourse and discussion, while the other is supposed to be a lighter atmosphere, like how you'd talk with your friends if you were at a party, gathering, etc., or for discussion of personal topics.

Oh, I get the ostensible distinction. It just doesn't work very well in practice.

And LOL @ "professional"

[earthJoker]

Just a thought: if we've come to even a vague consensus about being cool at least for a trial period in the D&D then perhaps it might be helpful to notify everyone so that even people who generally ignore the site discussion forum know about the latest forum game.

I indeed have ignored this discussion till now. I have to make up my mind first anyway.