It's Hiroshima Day
I almost forgot, its August 6th, the day the first atomic bomb was dropped on a populated city 65 years ago. I understand that a US diplomat and the UN Secretary General attended the service in Hiroshima's Peace Memorial Park for the first time. I wondered if Google would mark the anniversary in the letters on their web site. They didn't. Neither did Bing post a beautiful front page picture of the city today. Too soon, I guess. It may always be too soon.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Duh, both of those are American sites, what did you expect?
But hey, America helped with that Hiroshima Peace Memorial thing right oh wait
http://whc.unesco.org/archive/repco96x.htm#annex5
The United States is dissociating itself from today’s decision to inscribe the Genbaku Dome on the World Heritage List. The United States and Japan are close friends and allies. We cooperate on security, diplomatic, international and economic affairs around the world. Our two countries are tied by deep personal friendships between many Americans and Japanese. Even so, the United States cannot support its friend in this inscription.
The United States is concerned about the lack of historical perspective in the nomination of Genbaku Dome. The events antecedent to the United States’ use of atomic weapons to end World War II are key to understanding the tragedy of Hiroshima. Any examination of the period leading up to 1945 should be placed in the appropriate historical context. The United States believes the inscription of war sites outside the scope of the Convention. We urge the Committee to address the question of the suitability of war sites for the World Heritage List.”
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#1. I would fully support a picture of the city today without any commentary. Why not? I don't feel shame for what was done and I think the wealth and prosperity the city has returned to is a good thing.Originally Posted by Supermarioman
Duh, both of those are American sites, what did you expect?
But hey, America helped with that Hiroshima Peace Memorial thing right oh wait
http://whc.unesco.org/archive/repco96x.htm#annex5
#2. Not sure about the quote and whether it should be on the World Heritage list.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
#1 America has a nasty habit of burying the shameful bits of it's history under the rug. That goes for it's corporations as well.
I think they should have run a picture today, but they won't because they don't like talking about it.
#2 I don't see how anyone could debate it being on the World Heritage list, it's one of the most important sites in modern human history.
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Before continuing any debate on this, are you aware of Japan's more heinous actions that it committed during WWII?
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This being stated in a discussion about Japan is just hilarious.
Yeah, Japan's government at the time was a crazy murderous dictatorship.
What does that have to do with the thousands of random civilians in Hiroshima?
Japan being bad at owning up to it's failures doesn't excuse the U.S from owning up to it's own.This being stated in a discussion about Japan is just hilarious.
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Is this directed at me?
I think the same joke can be made about practically any nation. Hiding the bad and and exaggerating the good is nationalist SOP.
There's a direct cause/effect relationship there for starters. And in my mind Hiroshima's important for the weapon used, not for the body count. Many more died horribly in a night of fire-bombing over Tokyo than died at Hiroshima. Indeed, every major city in Japan was fire-bombed to ash except two, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Amazing the sort of thing that was acceptable just 65 years ago vs. the comparative egg shells the US military walks on today in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Then you understand why China is opposed to this as well, correct?
No, its not always about you Choobs
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Are you trying to make some kind of connection between Nanking and this?
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There was a lot more than the rape of Nanking. China is opposed to this as well, and you can't claim its because they want to cover up or hide the fact that they nuked two Japanese cities. So why do you think China is opposed? Do you think their reasoning is valid?
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No, I think their reasoning is bunk.
http://whc.unesco.org/en/criteria/
If the site of the first nuclear bombing in history is not a site of outstanding universal significance, I don't know what is.vi. to be directly or tangibly associated with events or living traditions, with ideas, or with beliefs, with artistic and literary works of outstanding universal significance. (The Committee considers that this criterion should preferably be used in conjunction with other criteria);
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You completely skipped the qualifying portions of that sentence.
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Thanks for the condescending hostility. And please remember to either quote who you're speaking to or address them directly in your posts to avoid confusion in the future.No, its not always about you Choobs
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
You didn't read the quote posted above that about the WHC's own criteria for picking a site.
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I was actually joking around with you, and its traditionally accepted that if your reply is directly below the person you are replying to, you don't necessarily need to quote them.
I read both, and I personally don't see it meeting any of the criteria. If the WHC were to add criteria for recognizing particularly terrible actions in human history, that helped change the course of it, then I would not see any problem with Japan nominating the site.You didn't read the quote posted above that about the WHC's own criteria for picking a site.
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Sorry. I'm not used to that from you.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
So, In your opinion, the site of the first use of the world's first superweapon that changed the balance of power on Earth, probably for the rest of time, is not significant enough?
Really?
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Not the first time. Wont be the last. The other places are miles better.
Your weird frenzy to make this political point notwithstanding, the common denominator among these things is positivity. See the full list at the bottom of this post. Big powerful weapons first detonation would have to be squashed pretty hard to fit in. Even if you did it, you would be filling the letter and not the spirit.
Im not familiar with the full list of sites, but do they include similar things? E.g man on the moon, the holocaust, the manhattan project, human genome mapped? Because really, Hiroshima only really affected things for 50 or so years. A miniscule blip in world history. Now everyone has nukes and its a big yawnfest.
Selection criteria:
- to represent a masterpiece of human creative genius;
- to exhibit an important interchange of human values, over a span of time or within a cultural area of the world, on developments in architecture or technology, monumental arts, town-planning or landscape design;
- to bear a unique or at least exceptional testimony to a cultural tradition or to a civilization which is living or which has disappeared;
- to be an outstanding example of a type of building, architectural or technological ensemble or landscape which illustrates (a) significant stage(s) in human history;
- to be an outstanding example of a traditional human settlement, land-use, or sea-use which is representative of a culture (or cultures), or human interaction with the environment especially when it has become vulnerable under the impact of irreversible change;
- to be directly or tangibly associated with events or living traditions, with ideas, or with beliefs, with artistic and literary works of outstanding universal significance. (The Committee considers that this criterion should preferably be used in conjunction with other criteria);
- to contain superlative natural phenomena or areas of exceptional natural beauty and aesthetic importance;
- to be outstanding examples representing major stages of earth's history, including the record of life, significant on-going geological processes in the development of landforms, or significant geomorphic or physiographic features;
- to be outstanding examples representing significant on-going ecological and biological processes in the evolution and development of terrestrial, fresh water, coastal and marine ecosystems and communities of plants and animals;
- to contain the most important and significant natural habitats for in-situ conservation of biological diversity, including those containing threatened species of outstanding universal value from the point of view of science or conservation.
"Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.
Looking at that full list Spawnie quoted, I have to agree, it's pretty hard to fit the dome into that. You might, with a great deal of effort, manage to fit it into 4. and 6., but if it's that hard to justify, it's probably not something that fits the intent of marking World Heritage sites.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Does everyone having lightbulbs make Edison inventing them less important?
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[2 cents] Ending the possibility of all out warfare for the forseeable future is a pretty big deal, especially when you consider how horrific all out conventional warfare had become. /[2 cents] (But should the Manahattan Project / Los Alamos be honored for that or should the first city to get nuked?)
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Well, you've certainly won that argument. I'm giving you a gratis round of applause for your sterling work. Keep it up.
"Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.
Er, well, as for positivity Auschwitz is on the list innit
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/31
Yep.
Your joking aside, Spawnie, prevalence != irrelevance.Well, you've certainly won that argument. I'm giving you a gratis round of applause for your sterling work. Keep it up.
I enjoy blank walls.
It even lists how it meets the criterion. Hiroshima and Nagasaki do not. The only reason you continue on with this is because these two cities were destroyed and the people within killed by a unique type of bomb.
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You think it doesn't meet the criteria.
The world opinion is that it does.
Are we quite finished here?
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If the world claimed 2 + 2 was 5 they would still be wrong. As would you.
I'm not even certain you understand why Auschwitz is on the list and why it meets the criteria, while Hiroshima and Nagasaki do not.
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According to both pages, they meet the criteria for the same reasons.
If you think Hiroshima doesn't meet the criteria, then neither does Auschwitz. If you think Auschwitz meets the criteria, then so does Hiroshima.Criterion (vi): be directly or tangibly associated with events or living traditions, with ideas, or with beliefs, with artistic and literary works of outstanding universal value.
You can't have it both ways, Illusions.
I enjoy blank walls.
The concentration camp at Auschwitz was specifically constructed to be a death camp where millions would be sent to die/exterminated over the course of years, where-as Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not constructed as cities populated to be hit with an atom bomb. Auschwitz had a very specific purpose related to its inclusion, Hiroshima and Nagasaki do not.
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