How is one a land barron if you just own land and don't do anything with it? And what about conservation?
But more generally, I'm concerned that property taxes harm people on fixed incomes or who simply want to unplug from society. If I want to buy 10 acres and squeeze out a meagre subsistence existence without participating in our economy, why do I have to pay property taxes on it?
Because then you're a lolbertarian nut-job, and deserve all the scorn and punishment society throws at you?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Wanting people to have the chance to unplug from capitalist society makes me a right-wing demon?
Anyway, this is sort of a distraction from OG's house hunt...
Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
You're paying for federal and state protection of your land and property rights.
. . .
I'll only reply once since I didn't want to derail the thread (and I don't think I care enough to make a big deal of it). In principle, I don't have a problem with 'land barons' except that they can be an impediment to intensive development of land. Of course, my definition doesn't include someone holding onto a small chunk of land, but rather a wealthy individual owning vast tracts of low-yielding land. It's an inefficient use of space, which is most definitely a finite resource.
As for conservation, it actually works the other way - urban sprawl is generally encouraged by current property taxes (not land value taxes) since low-yielding undeveloped land will have higher taxes than can be afforded (especially as a city starts to spread around the land and property values go up) but too much development will jack up the taxes without a commensurate increase in profit. Land value taxes would remove this incentive to develop but only lightly.
Obviously, parks and the like need to have exemptions carved out for them, but most parks in the US are government owned anyways so it doesn't matter much.
One last point: I do feel that property taxes are to some extent a wealth tax, which I generally oppose (not to mention that you have to pay property taxes even if the property is mortgaged to the hilt!). Yet wealth is not a finite resource, while useful land most definitely is. I think governments have some reason to want to encourage the productive use of a limited resource by making a small penalty for owning the resource.
What?My parents have an assist-push lawnmower and I don't think they ever did any maintenance on it since they bought it more than a decade ago and it works just fine.
I looked up your property tax thing on wiki, and it seems your rates are really high (in the order of percentages). Over here most are below a promille, I think.
That makes sense. And you are probably allowed to use the services offered by the government, even if you don't use them you can always call the police, fire department, send your kids to the schools, use the roads, etc.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
Sounds like the mafia.
Such is Life...
Lolbertarians aren't "right-wing demons" (until you put them in positions of power, I guess), they're just stupid.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I would think you of all people would appreciate giving people the choice to [mostly] opt-out of industrial capitalist society if one so pleases.
Why?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Mowing an acre every week (or 3 days) means changing the oil, filter and plugs, and sharpening the blade.What?
Yep. My school taxes alone are $7,000/yr.I looked up your property tax thing on wiki, and it seems your rates are really high (in the order of percentages). Over here most are below a promille, I think.
Because my leftie friends seem to worship those who do this and I'm generalizing their views onto you.
But seriously, the option to "unplug" seems important, non?
I dunno. The cat's out of the bag, in the sense that we're all in this together, and there's quite a many of us. Pitching in seems like the best way to utilize a human life. Other nihilists like Linkola have more or less unplugged themselves from mainstream society but he's all for killing a vast majority of mankind.Because my leftie friends seem to worship those who do this and I'm generalizing their views onto you.
But seriously, the option to "unplug" seems important, non?
As long as you consume, you should contribute in some way. To your abilities, of course. Even tilling your own land means you're taking up that land. Of course Murika (and Finland, come to think of it) are pretty sparsely populated, so in theory there's plenty of land to go around. But working at sustenance-level means you're throwing your own potential contribution to society down the shitter, and that's not very nice, now is it.
You always have one way of unplugging, and guns are still relatively freely available even in godless Finnistan.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I'm uncertain how to word this appropriately, but I'm wondering if your friends hold left leaning opinions that are rational, or are of the sort where, when they showed up at protests in college, when faced with a dissenting viewpoint backed by logic, rationality, facts, etc. would either blankly stare like a deer stunned by headlights before launching into soundbite wrapped chanting, or would just plow into the chanting immediately at the first whiff of a different opinion?Because my leftie friends seem to worship those who do this and I'm generalizing their views onto you.
Pretty much this.
. . .
Well, define "consume"? If I grow vegetables on my own land and sell them at a local marketplace, I owe an income tax. This strikes me as fair.
But why does simply having a chunk of land mean the government can basically tell me I should be getting a certain amount of income from that land and paying them a regular cut (even if I'm making no money from the land)?
Though interesting point about reneging on your obligations to society by being a subsistence farmer. I hadn't thought of that. Though I suspect eco-extremists would argue that being a subsistence farmer was actually a heroic thing to do.
Should this be split into a separate thread?
Here's the answer again...
. . .
And paying a sales tax doesn't cover that?
We all know that property taxes are mainly used to fund schools after all.
I'm sure paying sales tax might cover that, however public schools have to be funded some way, property tax seems to be the way its currently handled, but this is beside the point. I'm completely baffled why you've decided to view these connections so concretely though. Property tax being linked to funding public schools is likely arbitrary, and done for ease of budgeting what is essential one common pot of how to spend all collected tax income for the State or Federal government. This link is not, nor would I assume to be the justification originally for collecting property taxes; I'm assuming the original link was that if you expected the State or Federal government to protect your land and property rights, something that would cost them money, then you should be expected to pay for it. This protection of land and property rights is actually quite vast, ranging from anything such as acting as an arbiter in land disputes, to ensuring that if someone shows up on your property guns blazing that they can dispatch someone to take care of it, or if some less than considerate corporation decides to use your land as its personal landfill you can take them to court to sue for damages and cleanup. These are just some minor examples.
. . .
My point isn't what the taxes are being used for (you brought that up, not me). My point is what kinds of activities those taxes curtail. Property taxes are asset taxes; you pay a tax for something even if it doesn't make any money. I don't think that concept is so enshrined in many other places in the tax code.
Taxes aren't levied because you've made money, your making (or exchanging) money is evidence that you've used something that is relying on government services to operate in its current state, and this is why you are taxed. Your owning land is the same thing, evidence that you've used or are using something that is relying on government services to operate in its current state.
. . .
The government taxes the exchange of money. It taxes the earning of money. All of these are portions of what is actually earned or exchanged.
Does the government charge you for just sitting on your ass? Why should they? I'm not arguing against taxation, I'm arguing against a particular kind of taxation because it charges people what is basically an arbitrary number based on what the government thinks you should be making from land.
They may as well do a survey of people with your education and set your income tax dues based on what you should be making relative to your peers. Compared to simple income and sales taxes, it's unrealistic and sort of oppressive.
How would you prefer to pay for essential protection?
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
They don't tax you for this, I don't know how I can make this any clearer. I'm not even sure where you're getting this idea from. I explained what the justifications for taxation are, across the board. Money is used as a rough indicator of how much government services you've likely used, and your ability to pay for it. Lets follow this here...
Sales Tax. You're not being taxed because you've spent money. You're being taxed to pay for recognition of the exchange of ownership of a certain good, or the result of a service, and the continued future protection that these ownership rights entail.
Income Tax. You're not being taxed because you've made money. You're being taxed because money is a form of property, which needs recognition and protection, amongst other things, and you likely used some government service to acquire it.
Property Tax. You're not being taxed because it could earn you money. You're being taxed because its property, which needs recognition and protection, its monetary value being a rough indicator of how much protection its likely worth to you or someone else.
Last edited by Illusions; 09-24-2010 at 05:37 AM.
. . .
And even if the money goes towards schools instead of guns for Space Marines, arguably that's money going towards your homestead's defence too, since keeping the kiddy-winks in school and teaching them about the sanctity of human life reduces the amount of roving raiders threatening your little farm-plot.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
You're making direct links between specific taxes and specific services that the taxers themselves aren't making. For the third time, I'm not railing against taxation in general. I'm railing against tax on something that may or may not sit there, and the government saying that one "should" be making a certain amount of cash from a plot of land.
When the government tells you that you have to pay an arbitrarily calculated tax on your land just for having it sit there, you are not being taxed for "government services you've likely used." You are being taxed based on a formula that is divorced from reality.
It's not like sales taxes directly and exclusively contribute towards commercial regulators. Most taxes go into a general pool of money, and governments mostly try to budget according to the revenue raised.
Once again, I am not railing against taxation in general. I'm railing against a tax on an asset that may or may not just sit there.
How would you like it if the government charged you a tax every year for owning a computer? They would try to calculate the monetary value of what everyone in the country did on their computers, then send you a bill for your part every year. Even if you were just a poor student. Would that make any practical sense?
Yep. We pay a per capita tax (just for living here), and a professional tax (for doing business here), plus some other resident taxes. But PA is provincial that way.Does the government charge you for just sitting on your ass?
Also, you pay property tax on vacant land because it's still connected to roads and utilities. If not, the tax is super low. If you have farm land, the tax is lower than if it's developed land (an incentive to keep farmers around). Some people buy acreage and plant a bunch of trees, to get the tree farm deduction.
For the last damn time, I am not drawing a direct link, I am explaining the justifications for why they are taxed. Are you honestly this dense? You do understand the difference between a justification and a direct link right? One is why you should be taxed, ie. a justification, and the other is how tax money is collected and then what it is spent on, ie. a direct link. The government provides services related to, protection of, and recognition of your property and property rights as an owner of that property. The government charges you for these services. It does not matter WTF they use this money for after they collect it as they are still providing those other services. I'm honestly trying to understand how it is you arrived at such conclusions that are so divorced from sense and reality. If you bought a can of soda at a store, giving someone money for providing you with a soda, do you get pissed off if the money then goes to stocking the store with bagels? Do you get pissed if someone else comes in to buy a bagel and the store then uses that money to make sure the next time you come in theres another soda available for you to purchase? No? Well then WTF does it matter if the government, a service provider like all others, does the same exact thing? This wouldn't piss me off so much if you didn't likely possess a college degree in business or economics, and I didn't possess a degree in art. ART.
In case you still don't get it: You should be taxed for owning land because the government has to recognize your ownership of that land, and protect that ownership. They also provide additional services related to your ownership. It does not matter what the hell they do with the money after they collect it so long as they are still upholding their agreement to recognize and protect your ownership.
And here's a further idea...ownership, and the idea of owning something, only truly works in a society that recognizes and protects what you think you own, otherwise you're just temporarily hanging on to it until you either die, or someone comes along and takes it from you. Take your parcel of land that you think you're unjustly being taxed for in our next hypothetical situation. Say the US Government spontaneously collapses. Do you own that land anymore? No, you're just temporarily occupying it until someone else who wants it comes and takes it from you.
. . .
If you just have land (that is protected in the broad sense of the word), it doesn't make pay any sales tax does it?
As far as funding schools go - if you live somewhere you have the right to use the local public schools, so in essence by paying property taxes you pay for services provided to that property, whether you use them or not. It also gives you the right for firemen to show up when you have a fire, police show up when you are robbed, all kinds of services linked to your property.
That said, your property taxes are way higher than ours, so you might be right that the current calculations are a bit divorced from reality. But I don't see what's (in principle) wrong with taxing for property that just sits there, since even sitting property enjoys government protection and entitles the owner to certain government provided services.
I also think it's weird that over there certain services (like public schools) are so directly linked to one specific tax, instead of dipping in the big government fund which is filled by all taxes. Makes it more vulnerable to fluctuations in tax revenue, too.
It's not about whether it makes money or not, just by being there it enjoys protection and gives the owner the right to government services. Even if you sell nothing (no sale tax), and don't have any income (no income tax), you still make use of that. Hence, property tax.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
If the nation of Finland had a fixed number of computers, yes, I think that'd make perfect sense, since I'd be using a limited resource and if I didn't feel like owning a computer was worth the tax, I must not need one that badly, and the computer can go to someone who does need it.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Zoning. Conservation, agriculture, residential, business, mixed-use, industrial.....they have different tax rates. It's not as random as you assume.
If you want 10 acres in the middle of nowhere, with no improvements, the taxes will be very, very low. They might tax for that dirt or gravel road or water culverts, in case you need police or fire assistance. But if you've got 10 acres in the middle of suburbia, there are paved roads, sanitary sewer, storm drains, plus more services. That'll be your municipal tax. The school tax is high because of population density and the need for multiple K-12 (which means more roads and services).
Elderly or fixed income folks do get hurt by rising property taxes, even with a homestead exemption. That's why many move to apartments or condos. Makes sense in a way, because how would an aging suburb with fixed taxes be able to maintain the infrastructure and services, or attract young people, if they never moved out? Trick is getting multiple types of zoning and uses, with a varied tax base that's sustainable over time.
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