"Zarmina's World" -- Astronomer's Zeroing in On Habitable Extrasolars

[Wraith]

2. It might have an atmosphere, but it's not going to have a breathable atmosphere. So everyone's going to have to live indoors.

I don't think this is a safe assumption. If life evolved somewhat like life here, it could very well be breathable.

3. Everyone's going to want to live indoors. The light is going to be sickly red and the sun's going to be huge in the sky because the planet is so close. So, for me at any rate, windows are out. Sounds like a nightmare.

The sun's smaller, isn't it? Wouldn't it appear not too much bigger than our own sun?

4. The gravity's going to be hell too. Double to triple your weight here on Earth depending on the density of the planet. That's just going to suck. Joint replacement surgery's giong to be big business....

If it's closer to double, humans could adapt. I wouldn't want to be one of the colonists trying to adapt though. There'd probably be a much bigger emphasis on keeping off the fat...

[EyeKhan]

Native Americans were in the Americas before the arrival of European colonists...

True. But how many? How did they live before the giant plague. How big was the plague? I've heard a number of conflicting claims on all these topics. What was the state of the 'wilderness' that was the Americas? I've some hypotheses that the land was managed a lot more than we have assumed. Etc.

[EyeKhan]

I don't think this is a safe assumption. If life evolved somewhat like life here, it could very well be breathable.

But #1. established the baseline premise there is no life there. Duh.

The sun's smaller, isn't it? Wouldn't it appear not too much bigger than our own sun?

The planet is closer to the star than Mercury is to our own. Its still got to be pretty big, don't you think? I'm sure someone egghead like Kenny can calculate it....

[Wraith]

The planet is closer to the star than Mercury is to our own. Its still got to be pretty big, don't you think? I'm sure someone egghead like Kenny can calculate it....

Seems a silly thing to ask someone to do math for; ultimately it probably doesn't matter much. It's got to be roughly the same amount of solar power per unit area on that planet as our own, but I'll admit I'm not sure how that works out with respect to apparent star size. I don't think it'll be too huge a difference though.

If you can somehow con Khen or someone into doing the math, I'll take whatever they say.

[EyeKhan]

Seems a silly thing to ask someone to do math for; ultimately it probably doesn't matter much. It's got to be roughly the same amount of solar power per unit area on that planet as our own, but I'll admit I'm not sure how that works out with respect to apparent star size. I don't think it'll be too huge a difference though.

If you can somehow con Khen or someone into doing the math, I'll take whatever they say.

Rather than fooling with the math, I'm just going with its much bigger than our sun. As you said the amount of solar energy has to be close to our own in order for it to be in the habitable zone. Since this star is much dimmer than our own, then the planet has to be much closer. Now, there's the off chance that the smaller size and the closer distance cancel each other exactly and the star appears the same size in the sky as our own. Since that seems like a stupid coincidence some '70s scifi movie maker would use to justify not spending money on the special effects for pumping the sun up in size, I'm going with it looks bigger. In fact, I'm stating flatly not only does the star appear larger in the sky, its a LOT larger: 5X the size of our own star. It looks huge. It looks fucking blood red. And its gorgeous, if you're just visiting. If you live there, it will drive you fucking crazy in a matter of weeks. So, the domes have to be painted blue on the inside surface or everyone gets cabin fever and goes postal.

[Nessus]

Just do the math, fuckface, it's not that hard

[Wraith]

Rather than fooling with the math, I'm just going with its much bigger than our sun. As you said the amount of solar energy has to be close to our own in order for it to be in the habitable zone. Since this star is much dimmer than our own, then the planet has to be much closer. Now, there's the off chance that the smaller size and the closer distance cancel each other exactly and the star appears the same size in the sky as our own. Since that seems like a stupid coincidence some '70s scifi movie maker would use to justify not spending money on the special effects for pumping the sun up in size, I'm going with it looks bigger. In fact, I'm stating flatly not only does the star appear larger in the sky, its a LOT larger: 5X the size of our own star. It looks huge. It looks fucking blood red. And its gorgeous, if you're just visiting. If you live there, it will drive you fucking crazy in a matter of weeks. So, the domes have to be painted blue on the inside surface or everyone gets cabin fever and goes postal.

I'm also not willing to do the math right now, so I think we're at an impasse.

With the red sun, would that impact the color of any naturally evolving plants?

Just do the math, fuckface, it's not that hard

Do it for us!

[EyeKhan]

Just do the math, fuckface, it's not that hard

You do it if its so damn easy ya arrogant hyper educated Finn. You're the damn astro-fuckin-physicist - you probably do this shit every damn day.

[Nessus]

You do it if its so damn easy ya arrogant hyper educated Finn. You're the damn astro-fuckin-physicist - you probably do this shit every damn day.

I'm not an astrophysicist, nor will I reward your bad behaviour by doing your work for you.

[EyeKhan]

I'm also not willing to do the math right now, so I think we're at an impasse.

With the red sun, would that impact the color of any naturally evolving plants?

Probably. But there's no life there, remember?

[EyeKhan]

I'm not an astrophysicist, nor will I reward your bad behaviour by doing your work for you.

I respectfully apologize. Your intellect knows few bounds and I know you are something akin to the fabled Rocket Scientist. Please calculate the apparent size of the star and provide the results in a form dumbed down enough for me to understand. Thank you in advance for your help.

[Nessus]

4.5 times bigger, roughly.

(Hate you )

[EyeKhan]

4.5 times bigger, roughly.

(Hate you )

Not a bad ballpark estimate, eh? <takes bow>.

Anything else you'd like me to estimate the shit out of for you?

As a followup, any idea what the actual apparent color of the star would be? Would it really appear red?

[Nessus]

The amount of fecal matter produced by humanity in one week.

[EyeKhan]

The amount of fecal matter produced by humanity in one week.

Not a problem. But first, a few questions:

1. Do you want the answer by weight or volume?

2. Are you concerned strictly with human feces or by "humanity" do you mean human civilization and thus ecompassing all our food and entertainment animals as well? (Note - the latter would take some time to come up with)

[Nessus]

Weight over volume, please. As for 2, go nuts if you want.

[EyeKhan]

Weight over volume, please. As for 2, go nuts if you want.

Ok, lets do this.

#1. The average human shits about .79 lbs/day. (And that's an average of over fed, rightly fed, and underfed people and does take into account people who shit less regularly than daily).

#2. There's an average of 7 days in every week. So, that gives us 7 x .79 = 5.53lbs of shit per week, per person. (lets round that to 5.5 to keep the numbers simple )

#3. There's approximately 6 billion people living in the world based on my last count. So, 6 billion people x 5.5 lbs of shit / per person / week = 33 billion lbs of shit / week

#4. Answer: Humanity produces 33 Billion Lbs of Shit / week. (Incidentally, this is enough shit to permanently plug 8 of the ten most active volcanoes on the planet (not including undersea volcanoes)).

[LittleFuzzy]

As for 2, go nuts if you want.

I'm pretty sure you're both already nuts.

[Timbuk2]

33 Billion Lbs of Shit / week.

By metric tonnage please.

[Nessus]

Ok, lets do this.

#1. The average human shits about .79 lbs/day. (And that's an average of over fed, rightly fed, and underfed people and does take into account people who shit less regularly than daily).

#2. There's an average of 7 days in every week. So, that gives us 7 x .79 = 5.53lbs of shit per week, per person. (lets round that to 5.5 to keep the numbers simple )

#3. There's approximately 6 billion people living in the world based on my last count. So, 6 billion people x 5.5 lbs of shit / per person / week = 33 billion lbs of shit / week

#4. Answer: Humanity produces 33 Billion Lbs of Shit / week. (Incidentally, this is enough shit to permanently plug 8 of the ten most active volcanoes on the planet (not including undersea volcanoes)).

But this time you actually did the math, which you pointedly refused to do with the stellar problem.

Now, how much pig shit do we generate in a week if we assume that, out of the 1800 kcal per day, about 500 come from pork? That's pretty generous, but let's go with it. And how much do the pigs fart greenhouse gases? And how much oil is burned to distribute the pig flesh to consumers? Let's leave the oil used to feed and warm the pigs out for now.

I'm pretty sure you're both already nuts.

It's much more fun this way!

[Timbuk2]

But this time you actually did the math, which you pointedly refused to do with the stellar problem.

There's a reason for that.

[Nessus]

There's a reason for that.

Stars aren't fueled by poop?

[Timbuk2]

No. Chabooby's intelligence does not stretch to mathematical computations of the astronomical kind.

He's more at home with shitty little sums.

[EyeKhan]

By metric tonnage please.

Given there are .00045 lbs per metric tonne, then it would be 14,850,000 metric tonnes of human shit per week.

But this time you actually did the math, which you pointedly refused to do with the stellar problem.

I did some of the math. Of course I had to estimate the shit/day/human, the number of people living on the planet, and the number of days/week.

Now, how much pig shit do we generate in a week if we assume that, out of the 1800 kcal per day, about 500 come from pork?

Your estimate of an average of pork kcal/day in the human diet is way off. I estmate about 1/4 people on the planet are either Jewish, Muslim, vegetarian, and/or too poor to eat meat. And most people don't eat that much pork anyway. I'd say its more like 107 kcal/day. Based on that number, the number of people in the world, and the average weight of a typical pig bowell movement - taking into account that (rural) Asians eat small pigs and Westerners eat large ones, pigs produce approximately 572,000 metric tonnes of shit/ wk.

And how much do the pigs fart greenhouse gases?

Are you looking for volume here or weight. And if its weight, just the carbon or the hydrogen too?

And how much oil is burned to distribute the pig flesh to consumers?

I don't have a good oil data source.

[EyeKhan]

No. Chabooby's intelligence does not stretch to mathematical computations of the astronomical kind.

He's more at home with shitty sums.

Hey!

[Timbuk2]

Given there are .00045 lbs per metric tonne, then it would be 14,850,000 metric tonnes of human shit per week.

15 million tonnes eh? A much more manageble figure for the brain to imagine.

Hey!

[Nessus]

Your estimate of an average of pork kcal/day in the human diet is way off. I estmate about 1/4 people on the planet are either Jewish, Muslim, vegetarian, and/or too poor to eat meat. And most people don't eat that much pork anyway. I'd say its more like 107 kcal/day. Based on that number, the number of people in the world, and the average weight of a typical pig bowell movement - taking into account that (rural) Asians eat small pigs and Westerners eat large ones, pigs produce approximately 572,000 metric tonnes of shit/ wk.

Have you seen the people who post on and on about "Malthusian fallacy OLOL OLOL"? They believe in uninhibited, unstoppable exponential growth that can never be ground to a halt due to physical realities. Our little piggy exercise was intended to show the folly in that; if more people lived as we do, there are a lot of considerations people just brush away with "star trek technology will fix everything OLOL OLOL" until they are blue in the face, or have to excuse themselves to expel some of that hot air filling them.

[EyeKhan]

Have you seen the people who post on and on about "Malthusian fallacy OLOL OLOL"? They believe in uninhibited, unstoppable exponential growth that can never be ground to a halt due to physical realities. Our little piggy exercise was intended to show the folly in that; if more people lived as we do, there are a lot of considerations people just brush away with "star trek technology will fix everything OLOL OLOL" until they are blue in the face, or have to excuse themselves to expel some of that hot air filling them.

You mean Rand? (I miss Alber - he was good at that too, and much more imaginative)

[Nessus]

He might be the only surviving one, I'm not sure. And many board optimists stopped talking to me years ago.

[Illusions]

There is also the ever present "I won't be around for it, so why should I care?" mentality that makes me want to verbally throttle people...