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Thread: Foreclosuregate

  1. #31
    An alarming report on Bank of America, compiled by Branch Hill Capital, a San Francisco hedge fund, circulated widely on Wall Street Thursday. Branch Hill suggested that the bank, the nation’s largest, could be facing more than $70 billion in losses from mortgage securities that it may have to repurchase from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, as well as private investors.

    “We think this is a very important issue, and the liability will be substantial,” said Manal Mehta, a partner at Branch Hill. “There has been pervasive bad behavior throughout the system.” The fund is betting that Bank of America shares could decline because of the potential liability.

    Bank of America declined to comment Thursday. But the company’s chief executive, Brian T. Moynihan, said last month at an investor conference that adequate reserves had been taken to protect against any losses that could materialize if it was forced to repurchase mortgage securities. “This will be manageable over time, but it has cost us a lot of money so I’m not making light of it,” he said. “We’ll continue to manage it.”

    On Wednesday, JPMorgan said it added $1 billion to its reserves to cover faulty home loans that it was obligated to repurchase from Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and private insurers. It has set aside a total of $3 billion for potential repurchases.

    Even if the larger losses envisioned by Mr. Mehta do not materialize, the foreclosure issue remains a worry. In a report, Paul Miller, an analyst with FBR Capital Markets, forecast that the controversy would cost the banking industry $6 billion to $10 billion. He estimated that each month’s delay cost the banks $1,000 per home loan, so if there was a three-month delay on the roughly two million homes currently in foreclosure, that translated into a $6 billion hit.

    In addition to the losses directly caused by the delay, Mr. Miller foresees additional charges totaling $3 billion to $4 billion to cover lawsuits stemming from faulty foreclosure procedures.

    For now, bank executives are not making any predictions how long the foreclosure halt will last.

    “If you’re talking about three or four weeks it will be a blip in the housing market,” said Jamie Dimon, chief executive of JPMorgan Chase, in a conference call Wednesday. “If it went on for a long period of time, it will have a lot of consequences, most of which will be adverse on everybody.”
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Mortga...dlbWVzcw--?x=0

    Followed by some interesting comments by readers. Like questioning PMI and title insurance company roles and liability in this mess....

  2. #32
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    Cool, the secure assets are coming home to roost
    Congratulations America

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    You really should stop trying to label people. You are rarely correct.
    What you're suggesting is overly damaging to the system, and frankly not a strong enough deterrent to stop what they are doing. The banks have all 50 state AGs on them. You're looking at 7-8 figure fines here. The mess they put themselves in is figured to cost them billions. What you want, that wouldn't allow the market to price properties at their truth worth. What you're suggesting would only come to light in 1 of 2 ways. 1) Bank doesn't own mortgage, never did own mortgage, the people they harassed get nothing because the house they live in wasn't owned by the bank to begin with. 2) Bank wants to foreclose because the owners weren't fully up to date on their payments. You want to give people homes they shouldn't have been able to afford. You would be taking homes off of the market from people who honestly deserve them. Honestly, how many homes have been foreclosed on by a bank, against one of their own customers, when they were fully up to date on their mortgage? Possible? Sure, is that the majority of whats happening? No.
    The current freeze after all only came to light because of a whistleblower admitting to signing thousands of papers a month. The process of a bank not being able to foreclose because the owners knew enough to ask for proof was working pretty well up until that point. Does it need tweaking? Yeah. The expense needs to be put more on who is foreclosing while in court, but I'm not aware of many (or any) cases, that didn't have the bank paying court fees at some point.
    You label people all the fracking time and you're never correct. And the reason I'm saying I'm surprised is that I've never heard you talking about how the market prices anything. But let's move on.

    I don't think this has as much to do with the market pricing of a home. The issue is hard to resolve, but fundamentally simple and should be resolved quickly to maintain accurate market pricing on homes. If this issue is allowed to languish across large chunks of the housing market, it will inevitably screw up pricing on homes. Having the ownership of many homes be completely uncertain is a major distortion.

    My thinking on this isn't directed to people who were fully up to date on their mortgages. It's specifically oriented towards those who have made some payments to a bank claiming the title to a home they can't prove is in their possession. In such instances, the bank has been accepting payments for contracts/mortgages it doesn't own. That's a huge problem in my eyes, and one that's disproportionately weighed against the consumer.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I've never heard you talking about how the market prices anything. But let's move on.
    We've gone over this before dread. There are threads you simply don't follow, and threads that after a point (usually when you're in a corner) you simply give up on following. Before you pull some bullshit move of "this isn't you" you really need to pay attention more.

    I don't think this has as much to do with the market pricing of a home. The issue is hard to resolve, but fundamentally simple and should be resolved quickly to maintain accurate market pricing on homes. If this issue is allowed to languish across large chunks of the housing market, it will inevitably screw up pricing on homes. Having the ownership of many homes be completely uncertain is a major distortion.
    I've already covered the problems that the freeze is going to cause, but you want to give people homes they can't afford, meaning thats fewer homes for the people who can afford them. Thats wrong on just about every level you can think of. You're inflating the prices of homes, and hurting the people that least deserve it, to get vengeance on bad banking paperwork.
    My thinking on this isn't directed to people who were fully up to date on their mortgages. It's specifically oriented towards those who have made some payments to a bank claiming the title to a home they can't prove is in their possession. In such instances, the bank has been accepting payments for contracts/mortgages it doesn't own. That's a huge problem in my eyes, and one that's disproportionately weighed against the consumer.
    Its a problem, yes. But its also a problem they home owner walked into. The owner signed the papers to pay Bank X for property Y, so its not like the bank is trying to profit off of a property that someone else claims to be owning.
    No the bank shouldn't be allowed to skirt the law when it comes to evictions, but the home owners walked into these homes knowing they owed a mortgage, and who to pay that mortgage towards.

  5. #35
    I agree with you that the bankers who screwed up deserve to bleed; if they can't prove they hold the mortgage, then they shouldn't just lose the case. They should be made to pay for the suffering of the home-owners on whom they falsely forclosed.
    The homeowner isn't the victim. They didn't pay their note.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    You really should stop trying to label people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    We've gone over this before dread. There are threads you simply don't follow, and threads that after a point (usually when you're in a corner) you simply give up on following. Before you pull some bullshit move of "this isn't you" you really need to pay attention more.
    Um, yeah sir. The ego. . This is a familiar pattern for you too, sir. Anyway.

    I've already covered the problems that the freeze is going to cause, but you want to give people homes they can't afford, meaning thats fewer homes for the people who can afford them. Thats wrong on just about every level you can think of. You're inflating the prices of homes, and hurting the people that least deserve it, to get vengeance on bad banking paperwork.

    Its a problem, yes. But its also a problem they home owner walked into. The owner signed the papers to pay Bank X for property Y, so its not like the bank is trying to profit off of a property that someone else claims to be owning.

    No the bank shouldn't be allowed to skirt the law when it comes to evictions, but the home owners walked into these homes knowing they owed a mortgage, and who to pay that mortgage towards.
    Comrade, beyond your stunning defense structureless free markets, we're dipping into contract law here. And the core principles of contract law are somewhat emphatic on this: when someone can't prove the terms of a contract, they may be unable to enforce the contract or settle for less than what they (the banks) believe the contract is worth. And that final number could be zero. This is why people who are savvy always ask debt collectors to prove that a contracted debt actually exists. It's also why creditors have the burden of proof on debitors.

    Separately, I think there's a bit of moral hazard in allowing the banks to effectively be "bailed out" on this. At this point, we don't know how bad this is. But what does it say if an entire industry screws up the paperwork, can't prove actual ownership but still gets the revenue stream at 100 cents on the dollar?

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    This is a familiar pattern for you too, sir.
    Awesome tit for tat mod justification

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    we're dipping into contract law here. And the core principles of contract law are somewhat emphatic on this: when someone can't prove the terms of a contract, they may be unable to enforce the contract or settle for less than what they (the banks) believe the contract is worth. And that final number could be zero. This is why people who are savvy always ask debt collectors to prove that a contracted debt actually exists. It's also why creditors have the burden of proof on debitors.
    Now you're repeating me This still however doesn't doesn't justify giving homes away for free. It may mean a debt may not be collected, or enforced, and thats means no envictions. That doesn't mean free land. You don't give party A something because they've made a minuscule payment to party B, who may or may not be able to prove current ownership in a certain time span. What happens when Party C comes in and its discovered they own the property, but were never notified of any proceedings?

    Separately, I think there's a bit of moral hazard in allowing the banks to effectively be "bailed out" on this. At this point, we don't know how bad this is. But what does it say if an entire industry screws up the paperwork, can't prove actual ownership but still gets the revenue stream at 100 cents on the dollar?
    As I've already said, again, if the titles come back after 15/30/40 years, if the mortgage was paid properly, then this wouldn't be a show stopping problem. Something that needs corrected, perhaps fined, sure. I'm not aware of any of the banks actually fully losing the paper trail on a house. Even the article stats its a volume problem at this point, and the problem was because of nonpayment.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 10-17-2010 at 04:19 PM.

  8. #38
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    Just to be sure that nobody gets confused about issues; the bank owns nothing. The bank has a contract, or as is the case obviously in the US in a lot of cases, claims to have a contract with a home-owner. What both OG and Lewk are saying that just because some home-owners didn't pay to the organisation that demanded money from them that organisation should have the right to take away their homes. Regardless of the question if they were even entitled to recieve the money in the first place.

    And besides that legal problem, we have the moral problem ( a lesser consideration I will agree ) that those banks set up the home-owners to be the fall guy in case the deal went sour. They very often were very aware of the buyer not being able to service the debt, but they told them not to worry. Now, not so long ago one would say 'if you can't trust your bank to know if you can afford a mortgage who can you trust'. Clearly we were wrong.
    Congratulations America

  9. #39
    About the paperwork, and Limiting Signing Officers:

    "When Stephan says in an affidavit that he has personal knowledge of the facts stated in his affidavits, he doesn't. When he says that he has custody and control of the loan documents, he doesn't. When he says that he is attaching 'a true and accurate' copy of a note or a mortgage, he has no idea if that is so, because he does not look at the exhibits. When he makes any other statement of fact, he has no idea if it is true. When the notary says that Stephan appeared before him or her, he didn't."
    The court's ruling on GMAC's "bad faith" is already being taken up by foreclosure defense lawyers around the country. Mr. Cox "did a remarkable job of proving the lenders not only rubber-stamped these loans on the front end, but they rubber-stamped them on the back end," said Mr. Saunders of the legal aid group.
    http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate...realestate-buy

    If one step in the process is fraudulent, let alone two or three (like Notary Public falsifications) it's going to be pretty complicated to prove who actually owns the Title.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Awesome tit for tat mod justification

    Now you're repeating me This still however doesn't doesn't justify giving homes away for free. It may mean a debt may not be collected, or enforced, and thats means no envictions. That doesn't mean free land. You don't give party A something because they've made a minuscule payment to party B, who may or may not be able to prove current ownership in a certain time span. What happens when Party C comes in and its discovered they own the property, but were never notified of any proceedings?


    As I've already said, again, if the titles come back after 15/30/40 years, if the mortgage was paid properly, then this wouldn't be a show stopping problem. Something that needs corrected, perhaps fined, sure. I'm not aware of any of the banks actually fully losing the paper trail on a house. Even the article stats its a volume problem at this point, and the problem was because of nonpayment.
    No mod hats were donned.

    I don't see how you can say it's fair that the debt is not repaid (which is fine), but the home is given away for free (which is not fine). If the mortgage is declared invalid due to lack of proof that it exists, well then yes, the logical recourse is that the home is no longer owned by the bank.

    If Party C comes and finds that Party B is foreclosing, I think the burden is on Party B to have solved this. But I think you underestimate the potential paper trail crisis when stuff like this is happening: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/16/yo...s/16money.html

  11. #41
    What both OG and Lewk are saying that just because some home-owners didn't pay to the organisation that demanded money from them that organisation should have the right to take away their homes. Regardless of the question if they were even entitled to recieve the money in the first place.
    And what you are glossing over is that everyone involved knows the company that is foreclosing is the company that bought the mortgage. The issue is a technicality where the transfer of lien was not completed appropriately.

    They very often were very aware of the buyer not being able to service the debt, but they told them not to worry. Now, not so long ago one would say 'if you can't trust your bank to know if you can afford a mortgage who can you trust'. Clearly we were wrong.
    Sure some mortgages were not underwritten properly but how does this excuse the person who read the contract fully and signed it? Who knows the personal finances of a family best, the mortgage company or the consumer? Just because I could get a 50k car loan doesn't mean I *should* get a 50k car loan.

  12. #42
    What about the investors who bought MBSs or CDOs (not the synthetic kind)? They also had a contract that's now probably worth squat, even though they had teams of attorneys to review all the legalities and details. It's probably not considered a technical lien on the property, but they can hold up a foreclosure or sale by suing investment firms.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    And what you are glossing over is that everyone involved knows the company that is foreclosing is the company that bought the mortgage. The issue is a technicality where the transfer of lien was not completed appropriately.
    Sure about that? FHA took up $billions of mortgages from tanking banks in a secondary market, but the bank still services the loans.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    What both OG and Lewk are saying that just because some home-owners didn't pay to the organisation that demanded money from them that organisation should have the right to take away their homes. Regardless of the question if they were even entitled to recieve the money in the first place.
    Um...no. I've specifically said that eviction should not be an option if the mortgage owner can't prove ownership. Just as giving the home away for free shouldn't be an option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    No mod hats were donned.
    and?
    I thought we had new rules that were supposed to be curbing the childish tendencies in the D&D. I thought I was doing pretty good, then you went and started down the other road dropping trolling remarks that hint I'm not acting normal. The comrade was a nice touch too. Of course you had your bullshit called, and you justified it by pointing out how posters had acted previously
    I don't see how you can say it's fair that the debt is not repaid (which is fine), but the home is given away for free (which is not fine). If the mortgage is declared invalid due to lack of proof that it exists, well then yes, the logical recourse is that the home is no longer owned by the bank.
    Are the courts truely ruling the mortgages invalid, or are they sending the banks back home to work out the correct paperwork? I consider it separate entities that the home owner deserves a property title after fulfilling his/her end, and the bank being able to evict due to non-payment.
    If Party C comes and finds that Party B is foreclosing, I think the burden is on Party B to have solved this. But I think you underestimate the potential paper trail crisis when stuff like this is happening: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/16/yo...s/16money.html
    So you're saying party C is shit out of luck. Awesome.
    Because in all other aspects of American life, what Party B did was theft. Thus party C would be entitled to get its property returned. But we can't do that because you gave it away to someone else. If the property wasn't given away its as simple as taking all paid amounts from Party B.
    This is very common with cars, especially classics. It doesn't matter how many times it changes hands or sits unclaimed, once the paper trail is completed its returned to the original title owner. Which crossing over to this subject, would be the bank.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 10-17-2010 at 10:03 PM.

  14. #44
    Let's keep in mind that what set you off is me saying "I honestly didn't expect you of all people to oppose this kind of punishment."

    Being offended at this and calling it childish is, itself, childish.

  15. #45
    Sure about that? FHA took up $billions of mortgages from tanking banks in a secondary market, but the bank still services the loans.
    Just because a bank services the loan doesn't mean the note isn't owned by another bank.

  16. #46
    I don't know any closing that doesn't require Title Insurance, provided only after a thorough title search. If they didn't find a first mortgage or other liens, then they'll have to pay the claimant. As well as PMI providers. But that's just it....the insurers got into guaranteeing risky mortgage bonds as well. AMBAC and MBIA are underfunded and lost their AAA ratings. Aren't we clever?


  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Just because a bank services the loan doesn't mean the note isn't owned by another bank.
    Fannie Mae isn't a bank. So I think you're the one glossing over who owns what, or who does the foreclosure process.


    <Should be interesting to see what this is all about: My mortgage originated with Sovereign Bank, but then Santander bought the company. Shortly thereafter, they sold my loan to Fannie Mae. I received a message from Sovereign on Friday about "some important business regarding your mortgage", and to call back ASAP. Their office hours are Monday through Thursday. >

    EDIT: Man, they must be desperate to keep their paying borrowers. They called Friday the 15th to say they hadn't received my payment yet, and the last timely date was the 16th, a Saturday. I'd used an e-payment that hadn't cleared yet.
    Last edited by GGT; 10-18-2010 at 06:24 PM.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Um...no. I've specifically said that eviction should not be an option if the mortgage owner can't prove ownership. Just as giving the home away for free shouldn't be an option.


    and?
    I thought we had new rules that were supposed to be curbing the childish tendencies in the D&D. I thought I was doing pretty good, then you went and started down the other road dropping trolling remarks that hint I'm not acting normal. The comrade was a nice touch too. Of course you had your bullshit called, and you justified it by pointing out how posters had acted previously

    Are the courts truely ruling the mortgages invalid, or are they sending the banks back home to work out the correct paperwork? I consider it separate entities that the home owner deserves a property title after fulfilling his/her end, and the bank being able to evict due to non-payment.

    So you're saying party C is shit out of luck. Awesome.
    Because in all other aspects of American life, what Party B did was theft. Thus party C would be entitled to get its property returned. But we can't do that because you gave it away to someone else. If the property wasn't given away its as simple as taking all paid amounts from Party B.
    This is very common with cars, especially classics. It doesn't matter how many times it changes hands or sits unclaimed, once the paper trail is completed its returned to the original title owner. Which crossing over to this subject, would be the bank.
    The house is at NO point owned by the bank. The bank may have a lien on it, if that lien has been voided that what you end up with is a person who still owns his home but now free of any liens.

    Your idea that the bank owns the house because there is a mortgage is simply wrong; it may be what people say, but that doesn't mean it's a real representation of the legal reality.
    Congratulations America

  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I wish I could say I remembered an old Chaloobi that cared more about preventing his country from bankruptcy than he did about imposing his totalitarian views upon others, but I'd be lying.
    Did you really just say "totalitarian?"

    Ass.

  20. #50
    Now it's getting creepy. After I'd called Sovereign Bank servicing HQ in Reading, to confirm my mortgage e-payment went through (since they'd called to remind me about a fricking weekend), I received a call message from a local Sov. Bank loan rep. Couldn't have been more than 60 minutes between calls. Offering me some "mortgage rate adjustment special" they're promoting......

  21. #51
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    You better start thinking about how your furniture will fit in a double wide
    Congratulations America

  22. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    You better start thinking about how your furniture will fit in a double wide


    I've paid my note on time, in full, for 8 years. I have more than 50% equity, even going by the lowest possible real estate values. My neighborhood has no foreclosures. But they do know I have a college-aged son, and another one in HS.

    I think they want to sell me a home equity loan or something.

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Now it's getting creepy. After I'd called Sovereign Bank servicing HQ in Reading, to confirm my mortgage e-payment went through (since they'd called to remind me about a fricking weekend), I received a call message from a local Sov. Bank loan rep. Couldn't have been more than 60 minutes between calls. Offering me some "mortgage rate adjustment special" they're promoting......
    Sovereign, eh? My building's commercial mortgage is with them. We just refinanced. We waited an extra two months for the payoff letter from Sovereign to refinance with a new loan to Sovereign. Lost a few dozen thousand in interest rate locks down that black hole.

    But I did read some speculation that the banks may want to aggressively pursue these modifications for two reasons-

    1) If they are worried about the paper trail for your mortgage being dubious, getting you to sign a new one solves that problem nicely.

    2) You mentioned a call, have you been late on any payments? They may be using automated systems to detect a whiff of default/strategic default and are trying to nip it in the bud.

    What did they offer you? It may be worth it depending on the fees/rate change.

  24. #54
    It was a voice message. No, I've never been late. Not sure how my paper trail would be dubious---this house was built in 1968 and I'm only the third owner. I don't have any liens, or any other loans, not even a car loan. No real debt other than this mortgage.

    But I get creeped out with this stuff, when (following our divorce) I found out my ex husband's debts were still showing up under my credit report. That took some work and time to undo. Now he's getting remarried, and doing all sorts of work on their new property, while his is left to basically rot. He has some other properties in another county, too, that shouldn't have my name on the loan or deed any longer, but these things never seem to work the way they're supposed to. I've also received some of his mail and calls from collection agencies recently, so it sets me on edge.

    I hope/think they're just trying to sell me a new product, since I'm a reliable client whose not underwater. I'd debated paying off the loan entirely recently, but then decided I want to sell and move within the next four years, ater my youngest graduates from HS. Gah, this really isn't they type of thing a neurotic insomniac needs right now.

    edit: Second call came last evening, same branch, new person. Turns out it was their sales department, wanting to get me into a home equity loan at today's record low rates!.
    Last edited by GGT; 10-20-2010 at 02:12 PM.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Sovereign, eh? My building's commercial mortgage is with them. We just refinanced. We waited an extra two months for the payoff letter from Sovereign to refinance with a new loan to Sovereign. Lost a few dozen thousand in interest rate locks down that black hole.
    That's what banks do; the final payment went out of my savings account one day and appeared in the checking account the next day. Within the same bank. The transfer has been made to the lender, they are processing it now.
    Congratulations America

  26. #56
    Fed Wants Banks to Buy Back Some Bad Mortgages

    By NELSON D. SCHWARTZ
    Published: October 19, 2010



    Two years after the Fed bought billions of dollars in mortgage securities as part of the financial bailout, its New York arm is questioning the paperwork — and pressing banks to buy some of the investments back.

    The Federal Reserve Bank of New York and several giant investment companies, including Pimco and BlackRock, have singled out Bank of America, which assembled more than $2 trillion of mortgage securities from 2004 to 2008.

    Bank of America is already dealing with the fallout from the fight over whether foreclosures were handled properly. It insists that no foreclosures have been initiated in error, and on Monday announced it would resume the foreclosure process in 23 states where court approval is required to go ahead.

    But while the human toll of the foreclosure crisis has grabbed the headlines, the fight over how these loans were created in the first place could last longer and ultimately cost the banks much, much more. And it is setting the stage for a huge battle between mortgage holders like the government, hedge funds and other institutional investors on one side and the big banks on the other.

    “It’s very serious,” said Glenn Schorr, an analyst with Nomura Securities. “The numbers are all over the map.”

    If the Fed and the investors succeed, it could cost Bank of America billions of dollars. On Wall Street and in bank boardrooms, the question of whether investors can force banks to buy back, or “put-back,” the bad mortgages to the banks that sold them is dominating the debate and worrying analysts, money managers and banking executives.

    It also makes for some strange bedfellows. After all, it was the government that bailed out Bank of America — twice — during the financial crisis, the same government that includes the Fed.

    And it is going to be a fight. On Tuesday, after watching its shares get pummeled again, Bank of America went on the offensive, vowing to “defend the interests of Bank of America shareholders,” and hire more lawyers.

    “It’s loan by loan, and we have the resources to deploy in that kind of review,” said Brian T. Moynihan, Bank of America’s chief executive, on a conference call to discuss the bank’s results for the third quarter.

    Although the bank turned in better results than expected, much of the call was given over to the put-back issue. “We have thousands of people who are willing to stand and look at these loans,” Mr. Moynihan told analysts. “We’d love never to talk about this again and put it behind us, but the right answer is to fight for it.”

    The legal battle turns on the question of whether the banks properly represented the loans they put together into mortgage-backed securities when they sold them to investors. If the banks ignored evidence that the underlying mortgages did not conform to underwriting standards or they lacked the proper paperwork, the banks could be obligated to buy the troubled mortgages back.

    The Federal Reserve Bank of New York and the other large investors are pressing Bank of America to buy back a portion of the $47 billion in mortgages it originated, most of which were assembled by Countrywide Financial just before the real estate boom turned to bust in 2005, 2006 and 2007.

    Countrywide, which specialized in subprime mortgages, was acquired by Bank of America in July 2008.

    “People did not think bondholders would be able to organize themselves, but they can,” said Kathy Patrick, a Houston lawyer who is leading the effort. “It’s a large amount of money but the principle is simple. When you promise to do something in an agreement, you should do it.” A letter from Ms. Patrick detailing the claims was obtained by The New York Times.

    The danger posed by angry — or opportunistic — investors ‘putting-back’ mortgages to the banks is hardly limited to Bank of America. Other giants like Citigroup and JPMorgan Chase face similar claims, and last week JPMorgan set aside $1.3 billion just for legal costs, including put-backs.

    JPMorgan has said it expects repurchases of mortgages to run at about $1 billion a year, but that expense should be covered by $3 billion it has earmarked specifically for put-backs.

    At Bank of America, repurchases have been running at about half a billion dollars a quarter. The bank estimates total put-back claims stand at $12.9 billion, as of Sept. 30. In the third-quarter, Bank of America recorded an $872 million expense for put-backs.

    Besides the major institutions, hedge funds like York Capital and Moore Capital have been jumping into the game recently, buying up bad debt in the hopes it will eventually be bought back, according to traders and money managers. Both funds declined to comment.

    And smaller ones are sniffing around, hoping to ride the depressed securities higher as the fight over put-backs gathers steam.

    “Any hedge fund with a distressed desk is contemplating this trade,” said one analyst who insisted on anonymity. “The idea of bottom-fishing vulture funds buying this stuff up for a nickel on the dollar so they can sue the banks to get 100 cents must be pretty odious for the Treasury, which bailed out the banks in the first place.”

    Indeed, the group that includes the Fed is one of two coalitions that is gearing up for a fight with the banks.

    Bill Frey, chief executive of Greenwich Financial Services, leads a group of investors that holds just under $600 billion worth of mortgage-backed securities.

    But it is the recent controversy over foreclosures that has jump-started interest by pension funds, hedge funds and other players. “In the last two weeks, there has been a flood of new investors,” Mr. Frey said. “We haven’t even had a chance to do the arithmetic, that’s how fast they’re coming in.”

    Besides all the lawyers that billions can buy, the banks have other weapons in their arsenal. Some hedge funds and other investors are nervous about challenging the banks too forcefully, because they trade with them daily.

    There is risk too for the government, despite the Federal Reserve claims. If the banks are indeed forced to spend tens of billions to buy back securities, they could turn once again to the federal government for help.

    Given the legal resources available to the banks, though, that is unlikely to happen quickly. And for now, broader conditions in the financial services are improving. On Wednesday, Bank of America reported that operating earnings in the third quarter hit $3.1 billion, in contrast to a loss a year ago.

    A substantial portion of the profit gain came from the expectation of lower losses among credit card and mortgage borrowers, rather than new business, but the bank was able to recapture money it had earlier set aside. It released $1.8 billion from reserves, compared with a release of $1.45 billion in the second quarter.

    On a noncash basis for the quarter, the bank reported a loss of $7.3 billion because of a $10.4 billion write-down in the value of its credit card unit, attributed to federal regulations that limit debit fees and other charges.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/20/bu...0bond.html?hpw


  27. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Stalin was pretty demonic. If you want something more drawn out, I refuse to characterize the entire banking industry as criminal or unduly responsible for our economic condition. Doesn't mean I don't think many bankers are stupid and should feel the full wrath of bad business decisions, including possibly losing their right to foreclose because they've lost important documentation.
    What's a demon? Something that is absolutely evil not just in action, but in intent. I don't think many bankers intended to risk collapsing the global economy to make a buck. Some savvy market watchers, knowing what was going on however did root for the collapse as they stood to make a pile of money. But that's something else and no I don't think they were demons either. Was Stalin demonic or was he paranoid, brutally callous, and too powerful? Do you think he cared about the Soviet Union?

    Chaloobi, I don't see how me wanting to make bankers pay for losing paperwork (and awarding homes to the debt servicers) really reeks of me caring about money more than people. Can you please explain that?
    What Nessus said. And I was mostly teasing. I'm sure you're still a pretty nice guy when you're not thinking in abstract policy terms. Anyone that sits down to pee so as not to embarrass his lady roommates is a, well, pretty standup guy.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  28. #58
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    What's a demon?
    Easy.

    Even easier.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  29. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    What's a demon? Something that is absolutely evil not just in action, but in intent. I don't think many bankers intended to risk collapsing the global economy to make a buck. Some savvy market watchers, knowing what was going on however did root for the collapse as they stood to make a pile of money. But that's something else and no I don't think they were demons either. Was Stalin demonic or was he paranoid, brutally callous, and too powerful? Do you think he cared about the Soviet Union?

    What Nessus said. And I was mostly teasing. I'm sure you're still a pretty nice guy when you're not thinking in abstract policy terms. Anyone that sits down to pee so as not to embarrass his lady roommates is a, well, pretty standup guy.
    The semantic point about "demonic" is pretty semantic and irrelevant given all the text after the "something more drawn out".

    But seriously, you do seem to think I'm in bed with the bankers even though I want to hang them out to dry on this one. It's like you're doubling-down on your own misconceptions.

  30. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    But seriously, you do seem to think I'm in bed with the bankers even though I want to hang them out to dry on this one. It's like you're doubling-down on your own misconceptions.
    You want bankers to dot their i's and cross their t's? You do realize they have more say about that than you, right? Didn't banks make loans based on no i's and no t's? Yes, they did. What difference does it make if they dot them or cross them if they don't exist?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

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