Ah, well I know what Fourth Estate means, in American terms. Third Estate means the middle classes?Originally Posted by Being
Ah, well I know what Fourth Estate means, in American terms. Third Estate means the middle classes?
That sounds like an imperative to make lower and middle class money-spending more valuable. If only their earned wages are doing something that helps the rest......
That sounds fucked up. If "everyone in total" equals one millionaire, the price of bread would still be $2. One millionaire putting his money in a secret vault won't change the number of people buying bread. Seems like you want to conflate the money supply in an economy with liquidity, and commodity prices. Sounds like a perverse definition of supply and aggregate demand, where wealthy money matters more than everyone else's.But this analysis assumes that not a single rich person does anything with their money, and that prices adjust much quicker than they really do...
EXAMPLE:
A rich person has $1,000,000, and everyone else has $1,000,000 in total. The rich person continually spends and/or invests this money. A loaf of bread costs $2. If that rich person puts his money in a secret vault and disappears, a loaf of bread will cost only $1, because the money supply has shrunk.
...
If the rich people's income is taxed more, which reduces the deficit, that can be good because it reduces problems for everyone in the country. If the income is taxed less, it means a small number of actually investing rich people (and government) will hold a large sway over what the economy does -- that can be bad.
But I could be wrong.
Estates of the realm
The Third Estate includes some of what would now be considered middle class—e.g., the budding town bourgeoisie. What united the Third Estate is that most had little or no wealth and yet were forced to pay disproportionately high taxes to the other Estates.
National Assembly (1789)
On 10 June 1789 Abbé Sieyès moved that the Third Estate, now meeting as the Communes (English: "Commons"), proceed with verification of its own powers and invite the other two estates to take part, but not to wait for them. They proceeded to do so two days later, completing the process on 17 June.[21] Then they voted a measure far more radical, declaring themselves the National Assembly, an assembly not of the Estates but of "the People." They invited the other orders to join them, but made it clear they intended to conduct the nation's affairs with or without them.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
OK, so who's making or eating cake here? In current day US of fucking A, in the 21st century?
You are wrong. It barely changes how much bread is bought, of course (the only difference is that the rich person is possibly not eating the town's bread anymore). It does change what the price of the bread is. The price of the bread is relative to the money supply. If there was only $1 in the whole economy, would bread cost $1 still? No, almost because no one would be able to trade anything.
What are you trying to defend or explain, exactly? Central bankers printing money to increase money supply?
*bang*
*dies*
In this case, the price of bread. . .
Huh? Aggie, if you're using the price of bread, or how much bread is bought, in order to justify lower taxes to the top income earners......then you'll have to try harder.
And goddammit, does the price of bread help us define the Middle Class? Is bread buying the metric we're going to use?
Last edited by GGT; 11-20-2010 at 04:18 AM.
25% of people are poor, 25% are rich, the remaining 50% are in the middle. Now it's easy.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Holy crap! If 25% of Americans are poor, then they can't afford bread without a subsidy?
13% of our population lives on food stamps. How many others don't have an address to qualify for them?Holy crap! If 25% of Americans are poor, then they can't afford bread without a subsidy?
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Don't do this, really, just don't. I can't take much more negativity. I know full well how many seek help from charitable food pantries, and it's quite sad. They don't qualify for food stamps or WIC, their unemployment insurance has run out, they can't find a job. They swallow their pride to come to our pantry, to get a couple of bags of groceries. We used to be able to give them an extra bag of toiletries, small bottles of shampoo and toothpaste, a comb and a roll of toilet tissue, that kind of thing. But then the corporate sponsorship ended.
These folks end up with canned soups and canned veggies. We have no milk now, not even evaporated or dehydrated. Families with children get a bottle of apple juice from concentrate. A can of Treet, a jar of peanut butter, some frozen sausage patties. On a good week we have frozen chicken parts. Frozen blueberries were a blessing, but they're gone now. This month we could give a 5 pound bag of whole potatoes, that was considered a real treat. The Boy Scouts and the post office ran a food drive, but most of that has already been given out. Grateful people getting a box of Stove Top Stuffing or Jell-O for their Thanksgiving meal.
In America, such a wealthy and strong nation, this goes on. The people line up at the door for food, hours in advance, and we have to turn so many away, divert them to the soup kitchen serving homeless people. Proud parents saying they won't go there, they're not homeless or addicts, they are just out of work right now, but their unemployment benefits ran out. They try to sound optimistic, saying they are "between jobs", but their children are hungry and there's no food at home......and school will be closed soon for the holiday. Many of these children only get nutrition at school. Adults swallowing their pride to ask for help. Many of them get choked up and hold back the tears, especially the men.
In America. Land of Plenty. Greatest nation on earth.
And technicalities prevent this from being called a depression. Depressing, isn't it?
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Indeed. I know many in this forum said I was being overly pessimistic, waving my arms around in chicken little fashion. Or that I was being too emotional about the whole thing. Studies show.....experts state.....data says....the recession is over but growth is sluggish.....we are on the upswing.....everything will be fine.....it's just another cycle.....or another bubble bursting.....hang on for the long slog....this is America and we are great....we can't fail....it's not in our vocabulary or our mindset....failure is not an option...because we are the US of fuckin' A.....
Hey, stop stealing my thunder! I said over a year ago on the old forums that nothing was improving after the government announced the recession was over.... and I got piled on! :-X
I'm a dang prophet! Hey guess what the next bubble is going to be? You heard it here first, folks: the health care bubble. Too many people getting employed in health care, and then it'll all fall like a stack of dominoes... doctors will be looking for jobs! Watcher!
Don't worry too much, though. I figure there will be a minor gold bubble next year and gold prices will halve, then the economy will gain steam again until the health care bubble of 2015.
How did I pick 2015? Well, the time-honored economist talking head way... I picked it out of a hat!
You're a day late and a dollar short. Join the crowd.
You know what is really funny? Universities pricing themselves out of the game. Students are going to start outsourcing their education.You're a day late and a dollar short. Join the crowd.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
That's not funny.
I've read that university professorial pay is at an all time high, especially for administrators. And that tuition will nearly double in almost every state, at a time when federal funds are questionable. A few student groups are protesting going into debt just to go to college, but not making much headway. America doesn't value higher education, obviously. Go go USA #1!
Did you read this, Squanderville?That's not funny.
I've read that university professorial pay is at an all time high, especially for administrators. And that tuition will nearly double in almost every state, at a time when federal funds are questionable. A few student groups are protesting going into debt just to go to college, but not making much headway. America doesn't value higher education, obviously. Go go USA #1!
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
No, not yet. It sounded negative at a time when I need to find positive. The title kinda gives it away, ya know.
Expensive tuition isn't necessarily a bad thing, though it has been getting fairly expensive even for already expensive universities. It's a relatively free "market" (so far, compared to Europe, for instance, where tuition is made artificially much lower than the real costs) and the US exports university education by the truckloads, even with our relatively expensive tuition.That's not funny.
I've read that university professorial pay is at an all time high, especially for administrators. And that tuition will nearly double in almost every state, at a time when federal funds are questionable. A few student groups are protesting going into debt just to go to college, but not making much headway. America doesn't value higher education, obviously. Go go USA #1!
Also: wouldn't America's willingness to pay often outrageous tuition prices actually show that we do value education? Or, perhaps the now rich foreigners (even the Chinese) are pricing "native" Americans out of the market? (but really, there is no shortage of professors and from what I have seen, professor (not administrator) salaries remain low and the jobs are scarce.
Expensive tuition and low professor salaries? It's a lot of contradictions. Perhaps evidence of another place where the market isn't as free as we might think. (a free market doesn't have crazy contradictions like this)
High tuition is definitely a bad thing for smart but poor students. We may have high-priced education, but that doesn't mean it's the best. When dedicated and smart students end up in hock (often to the tune of $200,000) to become Physicians, something is very wrong.
Is that another litmus test for "middle class"? If you need grants or loans to attend medical school, you're middle class or lower? If your family doesn't qualify for tuition assistance, you're middle class or higher? Very few HS students get full rides to universities. They either have good grades and economic need, or they have excellent grades and need isn't even considered.
Some top notch universities have promised full tuition for the best students, regardless of family wealth. That sounds great! Until we ask about K-12 education for poorer students, kids that don't have the Middle Class schools, and if they are competing on a level playing field.
Since I'm all alone this time of night, I'll do a little rant about higher education in America. I'm all for helping smart but poor kids get a college education. But I draw the line at sports talent. It's crazy that talent scouts lure the fastest runner, the biggest blocker, the best guard. Regardless of their academic ability. At the behest of universities. It's even crazier that fans encourage this, to the point of state tax payers subsidizing athletic talent over academic talent.
I eagerly await the US student immigrant wave of 2012, moving to Finland to exploit our free higher education. I wonder if someone at Arkadia Hill had this sort of scenario in mind when they started making noises about placing fees on Johnny Foreigners. What a world.That's not funny.
I've read that university professorial pay is at an all time high, especially for administrators. And that tuition will nearly double in almost every state, at a time when federal funds are questionable. A few student groups are protesting going into debt just to go to college, but not making much headway. America doesn't value higher education, obviously. Go go USA #1!
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Palin 2012!
oh. my. god.
That's because education is a business. We're selling, they're buying. But the gut-darnit problem is that a large part of the potential buyers don't actually have any money. Now they're desperate for the product, they'd probably prostitute themselves for tuition money if we asked (some do without prompting, already!), but we as a business need money. Now, a lot of really dumb yokels love watching semi-homoerotic displays of Spartan attitude and lack of empathy so stigmatic of your nation. So that's a money-venture there. As a business, the smaller academic institutions have to pander to the yokel buck to survive. That means artificially floating barely literate beasts within the student register, just to stay solvent. Them's the breaks. But of course, because free markets, the institutions with the best scholars can afford to provide the best teaching, so everybody (who can afford it) wins! Gosh durnit, ain't life grand? (The moral of this week's SVU was academic institutions covering up rapes within the student body due to fear of lowered cash flow, too)Since I'm all alone this time of night, I'll do a little rant about higher education in America. I'm all for helping smart but poor kids get a college education. But I draw the line at sports talent. It's crazy that talent scouts lure the fastest runner, the biggest blocker, the best guard. Regardless of their academic ability. At the behest of universities. It's even crazier that fans encourage this, to the point of state tax payers subsidizing athletic talent over academic talent.
The subsidy thing is hush-hush and anyway, daddy likes to watch some shapely 19-year-old ass during half time, maybe a little subsidy here ain't so bad, I'd rather my tax dollar go towards getting those buttocks a degree than paying for that Johnson kid's operation down the block, that Johnson's such a lay-about loser, maybe this'll show him. Where's my beer?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Palin 2012!
Oh, dear God.
Nessie, you scare me with your realism. It would only be funny if it weren't so damn true. Just look at us, teh Americans, watching our American Idols and Dancing with Stars. Bristol can't dance worth a damn ya know, but the fans have twittered and tweeted their vote. That seems to be the new American Way......15 minutes fame, attention spans of a gnat, better to grab all the social network friends to have a tea party, than do anything else.
Witness our downfall. It will come with textspeak.
’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
“Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!”
He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought—
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.
And as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
One, two! One, two! and through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.
“And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!”
He chortled in his joy.
’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
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