Silly you, for picking a BA major with no way to get work experience, let alone good job prospects. Maybe you should have been more willing to take a job not strictly in your field.Originally Posted by Loki
You mean like how you troll around here? Stop being silly Mister Pot.You're reading far too much into it. When it doubt, assume he's trolling.
That number was $260k in 2008, which implies that you are not looking in the right places.
I have no knowledge of the housing market in Mass. But if it's that bad in the entire state, you should consider moving.
No, I'm saying those factors make it more difficult to succeed, but they don't prevent people from succeeding. Even though the deck might be stacked against them, they still have to make the individual decision to do stupid things. A decent portion don't make those choices, and they're the ones who get out of poverty.Hello? The structural problems are why people end up making bad choices. You're deluded if you think "those people" (who grow up in poverty with crappy schools and crappy role models, gang powers and constant violence), have the same type of individual choices that others "more fortunate" have.
You make it sound like they're victims by choice, and just have to choose to be smarter to do better. If enough of "them" could just see the err of their ways, the world would be ponies and butterflies.
Hope is the denial of reality
Let's not forget also about the insane amount foreclosures that are still going on. That really drives down the mean prices, especially when if one were to (incorrectly) utilize mean square footage -- small shacks will have very cheap per-sq.foot price, just like cheap CPUs have incredible per-score-point-value, but are not actually able to run anything.
And people do seem to use this measure, especially when these people are actually enormous government-owned mortgage holders requiring ridiculous appraisal schemes for refinancing.
Because of course the number of jobs out there is a fixed number...
That being said, *everyone* going to college just means going to college does not give anyone a leg up since everyone would have done that. But not everyone is going to do it. Some people will make bad choices. *NOTE* As an aside I think college education is fairly worthless in 80% of jobs in terms of having the technical and mental ability to do the job. However its a sad reality that you will command a better wage with a college degree then without one even if person without a college degree may do the job better. So unless you plan on starting your own business (and if so more power to you!!) the intelligent choice is to get a degree.
If you ever go to college, take an English class.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
You have no knowledge of housing markets at all, let alone regional COL or job markets. T'would make this discussion much better if you'd just admit that.
Otherwise, you sound Lewkowskian, throwing the premise out there, that if people just moved where the jobs are, or took any available job, or took community college classes in-between their two part-time jobs, or just saved their money, everything would be just fine.....
And I'm saying certain structural flaws in our educational system do, indeed, render a "decent portion" of our society helpless. Victims of circumstance, unable to overcome the odds stacked against them, destined to repeat the cycle of poverty with its consequences.No, I'm saying those factors make it more difficult to succeed, but they don't prevent people from succeeding. Even though the deck might be stacked against them, they still have to make the individual decision to do stupid things. A decent portion don't make those choices, and they're the ones who get out of poverty.
Point of reference: our national capitol, DC. Home to all our branches of government, the White House, the Supreme Court, our congress. Also home to abject poverty and crime. A real disconnect between power and poverty, education and livelihood. The two polar extremes right there, side-by-side. Stray too far from Georgetown, or get the street map wrong, and you're in a different world. Any tourist can confirm that, and even say WTF?
If nothing else, going to college sends a signal to potential employers that you're serious about improving your skills, have a long time horizon, can deal with people, can meet deadlines, etc. You can't see all of those qualities during an interview, so it's not unreasonable for HR people to take a shortcut and look for the college degree instead.
Hope is the denial of reality
You just pulled that out of your ass, didn't ya? Make you feel better about plodding away for your doctorate, or what?
There are now web sites designed to help degree holders in dumming down their education and work experience when they write a resume. That's how desperate the situation has become. Talented, educated, experienced people are trying to learn how to write a resume, without sounding too qualified, or too desperate. And that's just to GET an interview.
There's an entire literature in economics about signaling and how it applies to the job market.Why do you think your average frat boy with a college degree is still going to be more employable than a hard-worker without one? If you're in Human Resources, you're going through hundreds of resumes each day. You can't stop long enough to look at a particular case to see if there's a reason they don't have a degree. That resume just gets tossed in the trash. The HR people know that someone without a degree can still be qualified, but they also know they don't have enough time to find out.
And getting a Ph.D. doesn't necessarily send the best signals in terms of salary expectations. There's a reason most professional degrees pay better than doctorates.
Hope is the denial of reality
Do your academic economists also figure in how HR operations has changed? Are you stuck on large corporate employers, and how they've decided to find new employees? They don't pay HR people to sit at a desk and thumb through resumes. Not any more. Depending on the place hiring, a degree may not even matter. When time is money, they don't bother paying HR people. They'll just hold a cattle-call type of group applications, and work their way up from there.There's an entire literature in economics about signaling and how it applies to the job market.
And getting a Ph.D. doesn't necessarily send the best signals in terms of salary expectations. There's a reason most professional degrees pay better than doctorates.
Loki, when's the last time you applied for a job?
I love how you always assume you know better than the experts. If you thought of something, chances are some economist thought of it decades ago. The economists who study this know far more about the current HR process deal with HR people far more than you do.
Probably after you started assuming that you're the only wise person on the planet.
Hope is the denial of reality
I see why in some instances people do that but it seems silly when your looking at internal promotions and flat pay increases just for having X degree. To move into a management position at my job its a requirement to either have a 4 year degree or taking classes to complete a 4 year degree. While that helps me out personally I find it absurd that its a requirement.
I mean its not like getting a 4 year degree requires any amount of real academic effort. At least not at state universities.
And I love how you claim to know the experts, while trying to become one. Maybe that feeds your chutzpah?
I've never claimed to have one single original thought, not once. Not on economy, politics, or philosophy. I'm not that intelligent. Not even clever enough to pretend.
Still, I can read. You've mentioned HR a few times, in a couple of threads. I don't think you really know how HR works today from an employer view, let alone employment from an applicant view. New college grads have an automatic benefit that old college grads have lost. Universities partner with employers to weed out extraneous applicants, their job fairs are more specific, certain schools have preference.
When's the last time you applied for a job?
While college or graduate degrees are of course at times unnecessary to do a job, that's not true for a wide range of professions. Generally, the wage premium of an education goes much higher for so-called 'useful' degrees (e.g. STEM) rather than more fluffy ones (e.g. Music Theory). That means that even though there's some minimal value placed on the more vague things you learn in college, there's a lot of value placed on the specific skill sets and knowledge you learn in application-oriented coursework. We have a great deal of specialization in society, and that level of specialization frequently requires more knowledge and skills than are imparted to a high school student.
I personally don't think that a 4-year degree is necessary or even a good idea for everyone, but there definitely are reasons for the wage premium.
I guess this goes here. It gives an opinion about why unemployment extensions are more important than extending tax cuts for the rich.
The Unemployed Held Hostage, Again
Other opponents would have you believe that the nation cannot afford to keep paying unemployment benefits: a yearlong extension would cost about $60 billion. The truth is, we cannot afford not to. The nation has never ended federal benefits when unemployment is as high as it is now, and for good reason: Without jobs, there is inadequate spending, and that means ever fewer jobs. A wide range of private and government studies show that unemployment benefits combat that vicious cycle by ensuring that families can buy the basics.Nor do jobless benefits bust the budget. Just the opposite. They do not add to dangerous long-term deficits because the spending is temporary. And because they support spending and jobs, they contribute powerfully to the economic growth that is vital for a healthy budget. Extending the Bush high-end tax cuts would be budget busting, because they are likely to endure, adding $700 billion to the deficit over 10 years. Tax cuts for the rich provide virtually no economic stimulus, because affluent people tend to save their bounty.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Being, you should really stop linking to the NYT. It's a left wing liberal propaganda machine. Their experts have an agenda! tsk.
Also, you and I should be ashamed for posting in this forum. Our spam *and absurdity* is keeping current members from posting, and holding back new people from joining, too!
Let's go sulk in the corner, with our tails between our legs. Master Loki says we are bad dogs, and haven't learned the proper tricks. He will show us the way, though....soon, very soon.
Last edited by GGT; 11-28-2010 at 07:24 AM. Reason: *
I know what you mean. But that also means sharing a value system based on need, not just knowledge.
Example: most of us can find medical help on the internet. Diagnosing rashes or sore throats, migraines, back pain or obesity. Plenty of that information can empower us, and we can act on recommendations. We can learn how our bodies work, and how to make them work at optimum levels. That's a good thing.
However, other things aren't so easy, like cars. I can learn what bad suspension sounds or feels like, or how performance suffers from misaligned steering, but I can't fix that by changing fuel or keeping the tires inflated. I really need a mechanic for my car. A car isn't like a human body, where prevention and self-help or nutrition goes a long way.
Based on that, auto mechanics should earn more than physicians.
Are you kidding me?! Car trouble is far easier to diagnose than body trouble, and much easier (and cheaper and safer) to fix. The level of knowledge and expertise doesn't even come close.
I'm not talking about physician specialists or surgeons. They are a highly specialized group of doctors. I'm talking about the basics.
We all know basic health screening and level I diagnostics can be done by an RN or PA, often by the patient themselves. You can't say the same about your car. Not many people have the computer diagnostics, or the lift, or the materials. Most people can't even change their own oil even if they wanted to.
Apples and oranges. The fanciest car repairs require expert help (though said help doesn't require as much knowledge or training as an MD), but the vast majority of stuff can be done on your own with fairly basic tools. If you want to compare the fanciest and most expensive car repairs to routine medical treatment, you can, but that's extremely disingenuous.
No, I'm comparing our vast amount of knowledge and self-help for our own bodies vs vehicles. Humans have many temporary ailments that are either self-limiting, or simple to treat. Colds, flus, headaches, sprains, nausea, diarrhea. OTC meds and devices.
No such thing for a car: if there's a problem, there's a problem. Chicken soup and rest won't change a damn thing for a car, they don't self-repair like humans. That's why mechanics charge at least $65/hour. They do earn that, though. Anyone who's gone to a physician to be told they have the flu, drink fluids and rest, and gets a $100 bill for that 15 minutes knows exactly what I'm saying.
Oh, whatever. You can replace tires, brakes, wipers, lights, filters, oil, etc. all on your own. Going to the doctor for a cold is as absurd as going to a mechanic to get your car washed or your gas topped up.
The point is that for most car repairs you can read a manual and figure it out. For most everyday body problems, you can wait things out with some basic meds. But the level of equipment an expertise needed to accurately diagnose and treat something really wrong with your body is miles beyond that of your car. Worse comes to worst, you can buy a new car.
You can? How do you get the old tire off the rim and put the new one back on the rim...without taking it to a shop?
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
True *wiggin*. But you started this out by saying 4 year degrees aren't always necessary. I agree with that. When you mentioned a wage premium, I brought in the car analogy. And yes, mechanics earn their $65/hour. Even from people who only earn $10/hour.
Have you really replaced your brake pads, shoes, calipers? Adjusted your clutch and all the gear timing, replaced an O2 sensor or catalytic converter? Most people can't do these things.
We can buy otoscopes and sphygmomanometers at a Walgreen's. We can buy lancets, glucometers, and insulin. We can even buy insulin pumps. Some things require a physician order. Would be nice if we could buy a quick-strep test at Walgreen's, and take the results to the pharmacist to get Ampicillin, especially for kids who get strep throat. But we've had so much over-prescribing that strep is mutating and becoming immune to PCN. So we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. And we end up hauling kids to the pediatrician after 3 days of fever and swollen throats or ear aches. Paying the $100/15 minutes.
Last edited by GGT; 11-28-2010 at 07:09 PM. Reason: *
All you need is a tire spreader. The real problem is that you need the lugnuts tightened by more than just hand, which you can normally swing by a shop to get done for cheap/free if you don't have the equipment.
My wife is straight out of college and her billables are way more than $65/hour ($150ish?).
No, but that's because my time is more valuable than the mechanic's. Most of that stuff is pretty easy to do if you have time, and you'll save a lot of money. Detailed instructions for most repairs are readily available on the internet, and anything not involving really expensive equipment (i.e. expert work that's not the majority of car repairs) isn't that difficult.Have you really replaced your brake pads, shoes, calipers? Adjusted your clutch and all the gear timing, replaced an O2 sensor or catalytic converter? Most people can't do these things.
I don't even get where you're going any more. All I'm saying is that most fancy degrees that pay you a lot of money do so because the degree actually is worth something, rather than just an imaginary sense that a degree is necessary.
Spoken like a true engineer.I'd argue the same for most non-technical fields as well. The ability to think analytically, write tell, and give good presentations are necessary for almost all important business positions. Anyone who pays attention in college will be better at those skills than someone who does not. Even someone who goes into college with a good level of those skills should improve by the time they leave.
Hope is the denial of reality
It's sad that those skills aren't taught when they're in high school, though, it's not such a big deal and 20-somethings living with their parents are just embarrassing
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I was saying not everyone needs a fancy degree that "pays a lot of money". Those degrees may not be as valuable, in the end, as a steady well-paying job like an auto mechanic. And $65/hr is nothing to sneeze at. Also, not to sound too snobby that right out of college your wife bills way more ($150ish). The time will come when you'll pay for a great auto mechanic or a great plumber.
They're taught better in some schools than in others. But you're right: on average, the quality of secondary education in the US abysmal. Having said that, you should improve at each of those skills in college even if you had a good secondary education.
Hope is the denial of reality
You've never taken a tire off the rim, have you? And you've obviously never tightened the lugnuts either since you swing by a shop to have it done.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
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