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Thread: UN climate conference opens poorly

  1. #1

    Default UN climate conference opens poorly

    UN climate talks low on expectation


    By Richard Black Environment correspondent, BBC News


    This year's UN climate summit has opened in Mexico, with expectations of significant progress generally low.

    In contrast to last year's summit in Copenhagen, there is a general belief that no new global deal will emerge.

    The basic divisions are as stark as ever, and some nations and observers are arguing that smaller, less formal pacts are the way forward.

    However, countries appear to want the UN process to survive, so major public disputes are unlikely.
    Another contrast to Copenhagen is that very few heads of state or government are expected to attend.
    The summit takes place against the backdrop of forecasts that carbon emissions are set to start rising again after a brief interlude from the recession, and analyses showing that countries' current pledges are not big enough to keep the global average temperature rise within bounds that most nations say they want.

    On Friday, former UK deputy prime minister Lord Prescott - who led the UK delegation to the 1997 climate summit that agreed the Kyoto Protocol, and played a key role in negotiations there - called for governments to acknowledge that the UN process is failing.

    "The legal framework is falling apart. Let us be practical, recognise that it has happened, and go for an alternative," he said.

    "Each country is still trying to cut carbon emissions in its own way - the US has a programme, the EU has a programme, China has a programme.

    "Let each of them go ahead voluntarily... but let's at least agree on a few basics of fairness and transparency."


    However, this approach is diametrically opposed to the stance taken by some developing countries, which insist that Western nations must live up to promises they have made at key points along the UN route that began in 1992 at the Rio de Janeiro Earth Summit.

    This stance is echoed by most environmental organisations, which see the UN framework as the only way of providing a comprehensive raft of solutions to the issues posed by climate change.

    "Only an equitable, comprehensive and legally binding agreement will bring the much needed international commitment to manage the climate crisis," said Stewart Maginnis, director of environment and development with the International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN).

    "What governments should focus on in Cancun is ensuring that confidence in the UNFCCC (climate convention) process is rebuilt, which will bring us a step closer to that final deal."

    For some governments, Cancun will be a success if it generates a constructive atmosphere of constructive dialogue, rather than descending into the rancour that characterised the Copenhagen gathering.

    Others, however, are looking for concrete progress on issues such as transfer of clean technologies from the industrialised world to developing countries, the provision of funds from the west to help poorer nations adapt to climate impacts, and reducing deforestation.
    But even these matters are unlikely to prove straightforward.

    Developed countries have put forward "fast start" finance, as they pledged to do in Copenhagen.

    But not all of it is transparently new money, as it is supposed to be.

    Movement towards an agreement on Reducing Emissions from Deforestation and forest Degradation (REDD) has aroused the ire of some indigenous peoples, who regard it as an excuse for not cutting carbon emissions from fossil fuel burning.

    "REDD and other false solutions like agrofuels and carbon sink plantations are ways to grab productive land in the South so that more cheap resources and food can be accessed by industrialised countries," said Blessing Karumbidza from the South African group Timberwatch.

    They are also calling on any REDD deal to respect fully the rights of indigenous peoples who live in and off forests.

    The main issues, though, are economic and geopolitical in nature.

    Many governments are worried about losing their economic competitiveness through curbing emissions, particularly against key global or regional rivals.

    Main players in the summit itself are optimistic that something worthwhile can emerge, despite these obstacles.

    Christiana Figueres, executive secretary of the UN climate convention, recently said: "At this point, everything I see tells me that there is a deal to be done.

    "Cancun will be a success, if parties compromise."
    The lesson of Copenhagen, though, is that this is likely to prove a very big "if".
    One step forward, two steps back. It seems increasingly unlikely that a global deal can be forged that'd have any meaningful effect in slowing down climate change. Which means that we'll have different types of talks 10 years down the line when ecological shit starts hitting the fan. As Chambalaya likes to point out, humanity is forever reactive instead of pro-active. Ah well
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  2. #2
    Odd Point That is Somewhat Related: we don't see any (illegal) price fixing agreements with more than a handful of companies because it is impossible to determine volume levels fairly. When all the companies involved are close to bankruptcy, no one will go for being the sucker and not cheating on their volume levels in order to survive.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    One step forward, two steps back. It seems increasingly unlikely that a global deal can be forged that'd have any meaningful effect in slowing down climate change. Which means that we'll have different types of talks 10 years down the line when ecological shit starts hitting the fan. As Chambalaya likes to point out, humanity is forever reactive instead of pro-active. Ah well
    How far above sea level is Finland generally? Your nation's probably got more to gain than lose, regarding climate warming. Sure, you might have issues with malaria with all those lakes, but you could do like we did in Michigan and fill in / drain all the wetlands (90% since Europeans first showed up ) They make great farm land.
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  4. #4
    I've been saying "seaside property" quite a lot lately. 2030 would do nicely. I'd be close to 60 and can spend my golden years fishing with perhaps a small business of renting out fishing boats.
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  5. #5
    You have to buy in the right location. That sea shore thing isn't going to be so reliable in the not so distant future. And there's probably going to be bigger storms. I personally don't care much for the coast. Hurricanes aside, I don't like deep water and I don't generally like people who do.
    The Rules
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  6. #6
    I don't like deep water either. That's what the boat is for.
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    I don't like deep water either. That's what the boat is for.
    <sigh> I don't like being on it any more than in it. Did you ever see pics of the Titanic? Hello!
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    <sigh> I don't like being on it any more than in it. Did you ever see pics of the Titanic? Hello!
    Icebergs. Global Warming.

    Hi!
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  9. #9
    This is why I rent. Why pruchase a house if its going to require scuba gear by the time the mortgage is up?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    Icebergs. Global Warming.

    Hi!
    The Rules
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    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    This is why I rent. Why pruchase a house if its going to require scuba gear by the time the mortgage is up?
    Good old American pragmatism.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    This is why I rent. Why pruchase a house if its going to require scuba gear by the time the mortgage is up?
    Nonsense. Some third-world backwater might be affected by rising sea-levels if they happen, but even if they happen here we have the know-how to control it. Much of the Netherlands is below sea-level but they have really well built dams etc and can control it. New Orleans while not a shining example stood for a long time with the twin problems of being below sea-level and in a hurricane zone. Were it not for the twin issues of badly maintained dams (which were known to be poorly maintained) and the hurricane Katrina, it would not have had a problem. Rising sea levels don't scare me.

    Terraforming is more practical potentially than prevention.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    Icebergs. Global Warming.

    Hi!
    Hi,

    global warming may lead to more icebergs breaking off from glaciers.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Nonsense. Some third-world backwater might be affected by rising sea-levels if they happen
    Hi,

    poor people are people too.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  14. #14
    I'm struck by how chavvy the nations of the world are in the context of the world.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  15. #15
    They've given up. Think of the investment opportunities. Growth to be had in the civil engineering sector.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
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    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Much of the Netherlands is below sea-level but they have really well built dams etc and can control it.
    Florida has around 6 times as much coastline as the Netherlands
    Possible to protect? I'm sure to some degree.
    Practical? No.

    Florida, most of Georgia, and the entire East coast up to and beyond Canada dissappears at 60 meters, which is a conservative figure from what I've seen (60% of Greenland and the West Antarctic glacier melting).

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Hi,

    poor people are people too.
    And? How does that relate to my fact that an affluent American not buying a house due to sea levels is ridiculous?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Florida has around 6 times as much coastline as the Netherlands
    Possible to protect? I'm sure to some degree.
    Practical? No.
    It's also 50% bigger, has a lower water percentage and 15% more GDP than the Netherlands.

    It's perfectly practical to do it if the desire is there.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    One step forward, two steps back. It seems increasingly unlikely that a global deal can be forged that'd have any meaningful effect in slowing down climate change. Which means that we'll have different types of talks 10 years down the line when ecological shit starts hitting the fan. As Chambalaya likes to point out, humanity is forever reactive instead of pro-active. Ah well
    No country is going to allocate significant resources for a such a long-term project during an economic downturn. I think talks will seriously resume in a few years once the global economy picks up.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    And? How does that relate to my fact that an affluent American not buying a house due to sea levels is ridiculous?
    It doesn't, I just wanted to remind you of the fact that poor people are people too, even if they live in a "third-world backwater" that may be severely harmed by your globe-warming shenanigans.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  21. #21
    Well, at least Rand isn't denying the science this go around.

  22. #22
    Apparently the cooling trend may in part be attributed to changes in measurement methods, ugh.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Apparently the cooling trend may in part be attributed to changes in measurement methods, ugh.
    I do remember a frequent skeptic claim being that the warming trend, in part, was due to poor/inadequate measurement methods.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  24. #24
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Florida has around 6 times as much coastline as the Netherlands
    Possible to protect? I'm sure to some degree.
    Practical? No.

    Florida, most of Georgia, and the entire East coast up to and beyond Canada dissappears at 60 meters, which is a conservative figure from what I've seen (60% of Greenland and the West Antarctic glacier melting).
    Keep in mind we used to have a lot more coastline! But yeah, it'd be a huge project, and expensive. I think they're estimating it's going to cost us a billion a year to keep our sea defenses up to date and up to rising sea levels.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    Well, at least Rand isn't denying the science this go around.
    I've never denied the science.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    Well, at least Rand isn't denying the science this go around.
    I thought to be a science, a field has to have objective and easy to interpret results?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I thought to be a science, a field has to have objective and easy to interpret results?
    Ah, Prince of Lies distorting the truth. I've got a challenge for you. How about you go through one debate without lying? Objective measurements is what I said, Lie-ki. Not interpretation. Objective measurements. You know, like CO2, NO2, temperature, etc. Not "the degree religion played in a civil war."

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    <sigh> I don't like being on it any more than in it. Did you ever see pics of the Titanic? Hello!
    I hate you.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    Ah, Prince of Lies distorting the truth. I've got a challenge for you. How about you go through one debate without lying? Objective measurements is what I said, Lie-ki. Not interpretation. Objective measurements. You know, like CO2, NO2, temperature, etc. Not "the degree religion played in a civil war."
    The causal link between those measures and global warming is subjective. Correlation doesn't equal causation and all that. There certainly aren't any controls involved.
    Last edited by Loki; 12-01-2010 at 01:37 PM.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    I hate you.
    You LIE!
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

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