Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 70

Thread: Are we mentally treading water without a meaning to life?

  1. #1

    Default Are we mentally treading water without a meaning to life?

    I found the bolded part of this New York Times opinion piece sort of fascinating. The idea that, without the crushing ideological influence of a feudal lord and/or a religious order, people may lose a sense of why they are living. And that this may be bad.

    Of course, this is assuming people are actually "more sad" in this era than in past eras, which I don't buy.

    But does anyone have any strong thoughts on whether we're "more sad" in modern, secular times and whether mentally treading water is the right way to deal with a life centered around experiences instead of an explicit top-down meaning?

    December 30, 2010
    The Arena Culture

    By DAVID BROOKS

    Academic life encourages specialization and technical thinking, and, oddly, there are few fields in which this is more true than philosophy. The discipline that should be of interest to everybody is often the most impenetrable.

    But occasionally brave philosophers do leap out of their professional lanes and illuminate things for the wider public. Hubert Dreyfus of Berkeley and Sean Dorrance Kelly of Harvard have just done this with their new book, “All Things Shining.” They take a smart, sweeping run through the history of Western philosophy. But their book is important for the way it illuminates life today and for the controversial advice it offers on how to live.

    Dreyfus and Kelly start with Vico’s old idea that each age has its own lens through which people see the world. In the Middle Ages, for example, “people could not help but experience themselves as determined or created by God.” They assumed that God’s plans encompassed their lives the way we assume the laws of physics do.

    For the past hundred years or so, we have lived in a secular age. That does not mean that people aren’t religious. It means there is no shared set of values we all absorb as preconscious assumptions. In our world, individuals have to find or create their own meaning.

    This, Dreyfus and Kelly argue, has led to a pervasive sadness. Individuals are usually not capable of creating their own lives from the ground up. So modern life is marked by frequent feelings of indecision and anxiety. People often lack the foundations upon which to make the most important choices.


    Dreyfus and Kelly suffer from the usual Cambridge/Berkeley parochialism. They assume that nobody believes in eternal truth anymore. They write as if all of America’s moral quandaries are best expressed by the novelist David Foster Wallace. But they are on to something important when they describe the way — far more than in past ages — sports has risen up to fill a spiritual void.

    Spiritually unmoored, many people nonetheless experience intense elevation during the magical moments that sport often affords. Dreyfus and Kelly mention the mood that swept through the crowd at Yankee Stadium when Lou Gehrig delivered his “Luckiest Man Alive” speech, or the mood that swept through Wimbledon as Roger Federer completed one of his greatest matches.

    The most real things in life, they write, well up and take us over. They call this experience “whooshing up.” We get whooshed up at a sports arena, at a political rally or even at magical moments while woodworking or walking through nature.

    Dreyfus and Kelly say that we should have the courage not to look for some unitary, totalistic explanation for the universe. Instead, we should live perceptively at the surface, receptive to the moments of transcendent whooshes that we can feel in, say, a concert crowd, or while engaging in a meaningful activity, like making a perfect cup of coffee with a well-crafted pot and cup.

    We should not expect these experiences to cohere into a single “meaning of life.” Transcendent experiences are plural and incompatible. We should instead cultivate a spirit of gratitude and wonder for the many excellent things the world supplies.

    I’m not sure this way of living will ever prove satisfying to most readers. Most people have a powerful sense that there is a Supreme Being over us, attached to eternal truths. Though they try, Dreyfus and Kelly don’t give us a satisfying basis upon which to distinguish the whooshing some people felt at civil rights rallies from the whooshing others felt at Nazi rallies.

    But Dreyfus and Kelly might help invert the way we see the world. We have official stories we tell about our culture: each individual is the captain of his own ship; we are all children of God. But in practice, willy-nilly, the way we actually live is at odds with the official story. Our most vibrant institutions are collective, not individual or religious. They are there to create that group whoosh: the sports stadium, the concert hall, the political rally, the theater, the museum and the gourmet restaurant. Even church is often more about the ecstatic whoosh than the theology.

    The activities often dismissed as mere diversions are actually central. Real life is more about serial whooshes than coherent meaning.

    We can either rebel against this superficial drift, or like Dreyfus and Kelly, go with the flow, acknowledging that the autonomous life is impossible, not seeking totalistic theologies, but instead becoming sensitive participants in the collective whooshings that life offers.

    This clarifies the choices before us. This book is also a rejection of the excessive individualism of the past several decades, the emphasis on maximum spiritual freedom. In this, it’s a harbinger of future philosophies to come. Our culture is defined by arenas. Our self-conception just hasn’t caught up.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/31/opinion/31brooks.html

  2. #2
    They don't half put a load of bollocks in newspapers these days.
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    They don't half put a load of bollocks in newspapers these days.
    What he said +1

  4. #4
    My life has no meaning. I'm more likely to kill you than myself, however. Fucker.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  5. #5
    Why are you asking this of a group of extremely unhappy misanthropes?



    I do think there is a great deal of sadness and frustration in our highly developed and wealthy societies. We need to let each other chill out and to love time for this institutionalised independence/loneliness to come to an end. I am not the sum of my imperfect choices anymore than I am a plot of farmland
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Why are you asking this of a group of extremely unhappy misanthropes?



    I do think there is a great deal of sadness and frustration in our highly developed and wealthy societies. We need to let each other chill out and to love time for this institutionalised independence/loneliness to come to an end. I am not the sum of my imperfect choices anymore than I am a plot of farmland
    I agree, I do register a lot more of unhappiness in more developed environments than in lesser developed, poorer parts. And I also believe that the mere fact of belonging does help people to feel better.

    As a person I am quite aloof, but the infrequent moments I (almost artificially) whip myself into a group frenzy I actually do feel better. I even noticed that feeling about death changes according to how crowded the funeral is.
    Congratulations America

  7. #7
    I guess the question is what is it about increasingly developed worlds that reduces that feeling of belonging? I honestly am not sure I feel it, but I do feel that aloof-ness sometimes. But maybe that's just human? Maybe everyone feels that way and we're just projecting something on less "developed" societies.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I guess the question is what is it about increasingly developed worlds that reduces that feeling of belonging? I honestly am not sure I feel it, but I do feel that aloof-ness sometimes. But maybe that's just human? Maybe everyone feels that way and we're just projecting something on less "developed" societies.
    I don't think it's projection, I think that inter-dependence is felt more accutely in lesser developed societies. The feeling of belonging follows suit.

    Yesterday we had a very toned down NYE party, from the usual big do, to dinner and drinks with close friends. One British guest who was invited by a housemate told me our house made him think of 'Tales of the City'.
    Congratulations America

  9. #9
    It's a typical David Brooks column. Most of what he writes reads like a mid-life crisis or identity ambivalence, beginning with his book Bobos in Paradise.

    The authors he mentions do bring up a good point about the Sports explosion filling a void, though. It's become one of the few ways to get large groups of people together, being sociable, cheering for their team, feeling part of something bigger than themselves. Even our universities use sports to 'merchandise' loyalty and identity, calling it Spirit. May be a modern form of Hero Worship, dunno.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I found the bolded part of this New York Times opinion piece sort of fascinating. The idea that, without the crushing ideological influence of a feudal lord and/or a religious order, people may lose a sense of why they are living. And that this may be bad.

    Of course, this is assuming people are actually "more sad" in this era than in past eras, which I don't buy.

    But does anyone have any strong thoughts on whether we're "more sad" in modern, secular times and whether mentally treading water is the right way to deal with a life centered around experiences instead of an explicit top-down meaning?
    Anyway, Brooks aside.....

    I'd agree with the premise that our modern societies don't seem to value "spiritual moments", but it's more related to progress than anything. The kind of progress that we don't have to do many things as groups, the worker in the cubicle. The progress in our e-world that isolates people, removes intimacy, even though we can "talk" over cell phones and internet 24/7 across the globe. Might be one reason why so many blog and tweet practically their whole day, to feel a connection even though it's virtual.

    The whooshing away (living perceptively at the surface) doesn't work well in large cities, where people have to block out unpleasant assaults at every turn---stench of urine or garbage, sign pollution, homeless in the alley, angry or impatient people, rudeness. All the ant workers rushing to work, the bustling hive, dog-eat-dog you're on your own mentality. The whooshing at sports events is different, but (to me) it's not really a satisfying experience.

    When Dreyfus and Kelly can't see the difference in public whooshing between civil rights marches and Nazi rallies, they sound ignorant about human behavior. Mob behavior is group behavior, but not all groups act as mobs. Depends on the anger and frustration, sometimes just raw excitement at a concert or soccer match can make groups stampede and crush others. Nowadays, the internet can "mobilize" thousands or millions into crowds or swarms, they become joiners or upstarts, to feel part of something....while alone with their keyboard or smart phone?


  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I guess the question is what is it about increasingly developed worlds that reduces that feeling of belonging? I honestly am not sure I feel it, but I do feel that aloof-ness sometimes. But maybe that's just human? Maybe everyone feels that way and we're just projecting something on less "developed" societies.
    Or maybe increasingly developed societies are being lured by anonymity as a way to belong? Isn't that a relatively "new" concept to being human?

    Feeling aloof to bums in the alley, homeless with shopping carts sleeping on steam covers, the plight of poverty in our own areas---let alone "other states"---that's not normal.

    Humanity is more humane to animals sometimes, and that's not normal either. While I love animals and admit a penchant for domestic strays, neglected or abused, plus wild or feral creatures, it drives me nuts the amount of time and money spent on dogs-cats-horses, even zoos. Because there is human neglect and need that goes unattended, in our own back yard as well as across the globe.

    It's also kinda weird that others haven't posted in this thread much. What's up with that?

  12. #12
    The 'developed' world's economies require a great deal of time from their citizens. That makes people less happy. A study from something like ten years ago or so concluded that Mexicans were on balance happier than Americans. The reasoning was the Mexican life-style was much less stressful and demanding which resulted in more happiness. Sure, they don't have the Stuff we have, but apparently the happiness factor in owning tons of Stuff you never have the time to enjoy doesn't balance the happiness of having the time to enjoy a less Stuffed life.

    Supporting that is the evening of gender life expectancies in Americans. Now that women are working their lives away for the Man too, they're dying of the same kinds of things as men. Now that's affirmative action in action.

    Getting on about the meaning of life, the essential answer to that question - what is the meaning of life - is that there isn't an answer. You can take that into nihilistic despair - with Nessus - or you can take it as an exhortation to find your own meaning to life and run with it. Recent research has shown that churchy people are happier and live longer than non-churchy people. People crave meaning and purpose even when its clear there is none and whever they find it, they're happier.

    Damn. Its a hell of a contradiction, just like everything else. You can be wealthy, powerful and secure, and at the same time give up the right to spend your time being happy, instead busting your fuckin' ass your whole hollow, useless and unhappy life. Or you can beat the drums of worship for some myth or other and find happiness in community and following the mystic's rules. Is it worth it to have a poor economy, little or no safety net, just for the time to live life? Is it worth it to have the strongest economy in the world when your life is chopped up and served to the Man for brunch?

    Conundrums abound.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  13. #13
    How is it that our economies require an aggregate of more time for our work? I'm not sure I quite see how that works.

  14. #14
    It's more efficient than having two employees who each work less. More profitable.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  15. #15

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    It's more efficient than having two employees who each work less. More profitable.
    Not according to the Netherlands. They're using part-time and flex-time work to attract people, giving Daddy Days Off. Something like 75% of Dutch women are in the work force, but most are part-timers. They value family time and leisure, with support from their government. (Story in NYT a while ago)



    edit: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/30/wo...workers&st=cse

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Not according to the Netherlands. They're using part-time and flex-time work to attract people, giving Daddy Days Off. Something like 75% of Dutch women are in the work force, but most are part-timers. They value family time and leisure, with support from their government. (Story in NYT a while ago)


    cse[/url]
    FUCK the Netherlands. It's a pissant bullshit postage stamp of a Eurotrash under sealevel shit hole. I'm talking about big powerful nations that dominate the world economically and militarily. Hello? Duh. FUCK!
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Not according to the Netherlands. They're using part-time and flex-time work to attract people, giving Daddy Days Off. Something like 75% of Dutch women are in the work force, but most are part-timers. They value family time and leisure, with support from their government. (Story in NYT a while ago)



    edit: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/30/wo...workers&st=cse
    I have a contract under which I am supposed to work little under 22 hours a week. In reality I work 3 30 hours weeks after which I take one full week off. I am extremely flexible when it comes to work-hours. Basically the idea is, that I work when it's most practicle; under normal circumstances I work from noon till 18.00, but if there are meetings or hearings or I need to make international phonecalls I can shift my workday as needed. The 4th week out of every 4 weeks I am free. Friday's of the 3rd week I start a little bit earlier, so that I can quit in time to take the 17.35 THY flight to Istanbul. I fly back 9 days later.

    People are a bit surprised when they hear about the flexible arrangement I have negotiated, but my manager and I both know that with my puny hours I put in more work than most full timers relatively and more than some full timers in absolute numbers. It's got to do with the way I plan ahead and make sure that 'empty wait time' mostly falls into my week of freedom.

    Side effects; I have to take time off if I want to work less than 6 hours on a normal work-day even if I have already worked more than 22 hours in a week (to minimize accounting) and when I feel a bit under the weather I have to think really really really hard if I need to call in sick because that allso results - in practise - in me taking time off from my own paid vacation.
    Congratulations America

  19. #19
    Do we escape to holiday destinations to simplify things, or to absorb the different environmental vibrations that 'change' brings?
    I use 'escape' rather liberally, vacations are pure indulgence, respite from suffocating normality in order to reinvigorate our ability to feel differently for a short period.

    The 'sadness' to me manifests as more recognition of the routine and thus mundane, withdrawing our enormous receptiveness to external troves of happiness such as family, disposable income, hobbies and sports, etc. This is in favour of self-examination, obsessive reviewing of emotions, the working day, or ironically those instances that interrupt routine, such as car accidents and parties. When they mention "the autonomous life" is that the freedom to explore simple liberties or the appreciation that we are able to do so? Thus sadness at a lack of opportunities??
    The article is irritatingly vague in some points, does it argue that our lives need structure in order for important decisions to be made?

    We/I could just be talking shit.

  20. #20
    I don't think it's about decision making. I think it's saying that we've allowed ourselves an enormous amount of personal freedom, but with freedom can sometimes come a lack of definition to our lives.

    Then again, who says our lives lack definition just because our local church/nobleman isn't grinding one into us with a mortar and pestle?

  21. #21
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  22. #22
    sorry, wrong one!

    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  23. #23
    Personal freedom is nothing without the time to exercise it. Maybe I'm just exceptionally busy. You don't know what busy is until you have a pair of children with two working parents with demanding jobs. Choices choices choices of course, but this is what I was brought up to do. It's the middle American way. I don't know another way that doesn't involve trailer parks and economic troubles.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  24. #24
    Odd that 50% of the same people who are happier than Americans (Mexicans) would immigrate to the US if given the opportunity...I think how happy individuals are is in large part determined by their culture. In some cultures, people are expected to complain about everything, and are therefore not happy (I think that was Denmark). I would be extremely weary of assuming that people who claim to be happy are really happy.

  25. #25
    I don't know what the criteria for determining the happiness of Mexicans vs. Americans was. Also, how do you know 50% of Mexicans want to emigrate to the US? Last, even if that were true, It could simply be a grasses greener thing. Regardless of how happy they are, they may have the belief they would be happier still here. (Until they get here and find they are exploited, discriminated against, poverty stricken and/or find themselves doing horrible work...) It says nothing whatever about happiness there vs here.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I don't know what the criteria for determining the happiness of Mexicans vs. Americans was. Also, how do you know 50% of Mexicans want to emigrate to the US? Last, even if that were true, It could simply be a grasses greener thing. Regardless of how happy they are, they may have the belief they would be happier still here. (Until they get here and find they are exploited, discriminated against, poverty stricken and/or find themselves doing horrible work...) It says nothing whatever about happiness there vs here.
    http://www.cis.org/ZogbyPoll-EffectsOfAmnesty (looks like the number fell a bit)

    Yeah, because all those Mexicans who come to the US realize that Mexico is better and leave, right? It would explain the low number of legal and illegal Mexicans in the US.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Personal freedom is nothing without the time to exercise it. Maybe I'm just exceptionally busy. You don't know what busy is until you have a pair of children with two working parents with demanding jobs. Choices choices choices of course, but this is what I was brought up to do. It's the middle American way. I don't know another way that doesn't involve trailer parks and economic troubles.
    Price of Progress? The paradox of being elevated from hunter-gatherer subsistence to an easy civilized life, warm and fed in our cubicles filled with high tech, means more time for the brain to wander into Existentialism.

    And yeah, it was your choice to be busy in a demanding job, with two working parents and two kids, to attain a certain life-style. The alternative isn't necessarily a trailer park or being poor. But lots of rich people have admitted they'd rather have been poor(er) in exchange for time with their family, time to smell the roses, less time on the gerbil wheel or concrete jungle.

    The grass is always greener on the other side of the septic tank

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    http://www.cis.org/ZogbyPoll-EffectsOfAmnesty (looks like the number fell a bit)

    Yeah, because all those Mexicans who come to the US realize that Mexico is better and leave, right? It would explain the low number of legal and illegal Mexicans in the US.
    The sarcasm isn't necessary Loki.

    That said, people don't often choose the life that will make them happy. Mexicans here working are thinking about sending money home to their families, about giving their children here opportunities they don't have in Mexico and so on. In short they are sacrificing for some goal. Life decisions are rarely about what will make you overall more happy. Hell, it's difficult even to know what it is that will make you happy.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Price of Progress? The paradox of being elevated from hunter-gatherer subsistence to an easy civilized life, warm and fed in our cubicles filled with high tech, means more time for the brain to wander into Existentialism.

    And yeah, it was your choice to be busy in a demanding job, with two working parents and two kids, to attain a certain life-style. The alternative isn't necessarily a trailer park or being poor. But lots of rich people have admitted they'd rather have been poor(er) in exchange for time with their family, time to smell the roses, less time on the gerbil wheel or concrete jungle.

    The grass is always greener on the other side of the septic tank
    True enough. On the one hand I crave more free time, but on the other I'm pretty secure economically, and today not a lot of people can say that.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  30. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I don't know what the criteria for determining the happiness of Mexicans vs. Americans was. Also, how do you know 50% of Mexicans want to emigrate to the US? Last, even if that were true, It could simply be a grasses greener thing. Regardless of how happy they are, they may have the belief they would be happier still here. (Until they get here and find they are exploited, discriminated against, poverty stricken and/or find themselves doing horrible work...) It says nothing whatever about happiness there vs here.
    True, all of it. I have this thing about Turks wanting to move to Europe and it beats the hell our of me how exactly their life is going to be significantly better.
    Congratulations America

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •