Page 10 of 19 FirstFirst ... 89101112 ... LastLast
Results 271 to 300 of 551

Thread: US Representative Shot in Arizona + Fantasies/Falsehoods about Dreadnt and Guns

  1. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I do trust my perspective. I think you and the others decrying all this "violence" are full of shit. It's not as extensive, and it hasn't changed in volume recently, people are saying otherwise because they're alarmist or because they're looking to score political points. I think quite a few are doing the latter, I've already said in this thread that we're seeing these comments as a variation of "have you stopped beating your wife yet" accusations, and as the latest version of "death-panel" rhetoric. I'm saying that if you want to make a claim which I view as obviously wrong, you should back it up with proof, since, as I pointed out, there are some easy ways to quantify it and poli-sci academics are performing this analysis all the freaking time.
    Two things: 1) Violence in general. Are you saying all the public schools, universities, airports, state/federal office buildings are being "alarmist" with their safety screenings? Those precautions are just to appease an unreasonable or hysterical public? Or is it because we've had more violence in recent years, the kind that harms several people in one fell swoop....

    2) Nastiness in politics. Town Hall meetings where people yell and scream, thinking it's okay to physically approach candidates in a threatening manner, or spit on them. Birthers denying our President is a citizen. A handful of congress wanting to conduct "investigations for anti-Americanism". FBI following threatening phone calls and e-mails in increasing numbers.

    If poli-sci academics analyze this all the freaking time, then where are the reports saying our society has no need for all these new security measures? Sure, they post crime rates, and how violent crimes have remained steady or gone down in most major metropolitan areas. But the type and degree of violence has changed (bombs or semi-automatic guns instead of knives or pistols). I don't mean from Prohibition Bonnie and Clyde days, but the 20th century in general. We don't have airplanes hijacked to Cuba now, we have underwear bombs and terrorists flying planes into buildings. Going Postal means something very different in the last couple of decades, like the DC area sniper hiding in the trunk, Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc. Instead of an isolated Kent State incident, students are attacking and killing teachers and fellow students.

    We have more piracy and kidnappings, mass shootings and bomb threats, murder/suicides, sarin or anthrax threats, violence at the Mexican border, gangs and drug lords that shoot up entire neighborhoods, lots of young people dying en masse, more GSW in the ED than ever. Do you deny all that?

    I'll concede the point that we've always had violence, crime, even assassinations. We're a violent culture. But IMO it has gotten "worse" or escalated, at least since the 80's. If I have a bias, it's not to confirm some existing belief of my own (Loki). Possible it's related to our media tools and 24/7 internet coverage, splayed across screens everywhere? (Kind of like saying our cancer rates are historically the same, they just appear higher now that we can diagnose earlier and more often?) Maybe it's related to the type of weapons that can spray bullets into crowds, planes used as weapons (just one guy will fly into an IRS building), or larger bombs. Maybe it's not frequency but severity.

  2. #272
    http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

    Violent crime - lowest since 1973
    Murders - lowest since 1964
    Rapes - lowest since 1976 (and rapes weren't reported as much back then)

    There's no category of crime that isn't currently at the lowest level in decades...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #273
    These measures do more to limit freedom than increase security. We must decide, and soon, if we want a free and robust society or a safer and restricted one. Will Big Brother be watching, or will we poke him in the eye? I find it reprehensible that people have, and continue to, die for our freedom so we can just give it away to save our own asses. They say freedom isn't free, I say sometimes that price is paid at home. But I'm only one voice in the chaos that fear has created.
    The worst job in the world is better than being broke and homeless

  4. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Lane View Post
    Out of interest and I don't want to go OT beyond this post and your response, but given we share similar parliamentary systems I am interested: how can someone be stripped of being an MP other than for a criminal act? You can lose party endorsement but in the Westminster system parties have no power over an MPs right to sit within the term for which they were elected.
    He was convicted of deliberately lying about an opponent during the election - a type of electoral fraud - in a specially convened election court. Was the first time it's happened in a Westminster election in 99 years. This fell under part of electoral law. Although after the media said for months it was the first time this law had been used in 99 years it turned out it had been used to disqualify a local Councillor who'd deliberately and falsely accused an opponent of being a Paedophile in an election leaflet earlier in the decade.

    There are 4 ways I know of for an MP to lose the seat:
    1: Have the election declared void (which happened following the court-case).
    2: Being convicted and sentenced for 12 months or more in prison (automatic disqualification and by-election).
    3: MPs in Westminster have the power to evict an MP, I don't know the full regulations but this hasn't happened since 1947 when a Labour MP was expelled from Westminster after selling PLP information to a newspaper. This nearly happened just now following a sitting Labour MP's conviction for expenses fraud. Following the conviction he'll likely get a 12 month sentence but if he didn't the other MP's would expel him if he didn't quit.
    4: Take a seat in the Lords, or "payment from the Crown" aka the "Chiltern Hundreds" job (technically you can't resign being an MP, the "Chiltern Hundreds" disqualifies you so is the way to resign).

  5. #275
    It think it's just that the media is so pervasive these days that perceptions of violence seem more alarming than they actually are because it's in our face all day.

    The evening news and newspaper had a half-hour of time, or x amount of columns to tell the big stories, while today, the internet, email, twitter, skype, Facebook, (TWF ) etc. ad nauseum, allows us to hear everything about everything in a way that wasn't possible before.

  6. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

    Violent crime - lowest since 1973
    Murders - lowest since 1964
    Rapes - lowest since 1976 (and rapes weren't reported as much back then)

    There's no category of crime that isn't currently at the lowest level in decades...
    I thought that's what I said. However, I'm not convinced you can separate out the reporting methods, or tracking statistics, from past to present. I admitted my "bias" may be one of awareness and reporting.

    Example: child molestations and pedophilia. People have been trying for decades to re-define what that means, how to get victims to report, or have churches and schools create a policy. Same with rape or spousal abuse, stalking or even bullying.

    If you poll emergency rooms or first responders, or university teaching hospitals, there are more GSWs and violent assaults than ever. To the point that EMTs, MDs, and RNs refer to emergency medicine as war zone triage. Many techniques are transferred from military war experience to the average urban-suburban hospital! Medical professionals are now active in gun control legislation, and social efforts to "combat" violence.

  7. #277
    So violent crime is at a record low, but there are more people than ever being assaulted? Riiight.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    If you poll emergency rooms or first responders, or university teaching hospitals, there are more GSWs and violent assaults than ever.
    I don't believe that, can you provide some evidence please.

  9. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I don't believe that, can you provide some evidence please.
    Not sure what you're asking as definitive "proof", but I mean the US (not the UK).

    United States

    Tracking trauma is the purview of the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control (NCICP) . Data collected by this organization suggest that traumatic injury is the third overall leading cause of death and the number one cause of death in persons aged 1-44 years. Penetrating abdominal trauma affects approximately 35% of those patients admitted to urban trauma centers and 1-12% of those admitted to suburban or rural centers.3

    The mechanism that underlies the penetrating trauma (eg, gunshot wound, stab wound, impalement) relates to the mode of injury (eg, accidental or intentional injury, homicide, suicide). Homicide or intentional injury is the predominant mode of abdominal injury in this patient population. Accidental injury is most common in pediatric home firearm injuries but is uncommon by comparison to the overall levels of homicide and intentional injury. Suicide via penetrating abdominal trauma is uncommon.
    http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/822099-overview

    From the NCICP link dated 2008, related to new coding and reporting data:

    http://www.cdc.gov/violencepreventio...ersion_3-a.pdf

  10. #280
    Erm, that gives the data for now. It doesn't say it's gone up...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  11. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Erm, that gives the data for now. It doesn't say it's gone up...
    There's a reason that medical coding changes and updates. It's not just for specific reimbursement from third party payers, but to reflect new "trends" that didn't previously exist.....

  12. #282
    Except the facts are not on your side. Violent crimes are down sharply.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Except the facts are not on your side. Violent crimes are down sharply.
    Even gun advocates have said that medical research on gun violence has been politicized. It's not so cut-and-dry either way. Like I said, violent crimes by incident may be lower, but one incident can create several victims. I'm not sure that's something being followed statistically.



    New angle to this thread: Dread posted an article from WSJ with "Blood Libel" in its title. Yesterday, Palin released a video mentioning a manufactured "Blood Libel". I wasn't aware that term had negative historical connotations for Jews.
    Last edited by GGT; 01-13-2011 at 10:59 PM.

  14. #284
    Update for some really good news

    The Arizona congresswoman has been sitting up, dangling her legs on the edge of the hospital bed and moving her limbs in response to commands. That's after she spontaneously opened her eyes during visits with her colleagues Wednesday night. She is able to lift both of her legs on command and is yawning and starting to rub her eyes, doctors said.

    "She's becoming more aware of her surroundings," trauma chief Dr. Peter Rhee said during a news conference at the University Medical Center in Tucson, Ariz., Thursday.

    The next milestone will be removing her breathing tube, and perhaps have her sit in a chair on Friday, said Rhee, who has treated soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. Doctors want to make sure Giffords doesn't regress and are watching for pneumonia and blood clots.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41018273...h-health_care/

    Comes on the same day as young Christina Taylor Green's funeral.

    I'd "heard" Westboro was planning to protest at her funeral procession , and a Tucson community group was planning to surround the procession with people wearing angel wings to block out any offensive signs. Not sure if that came to pass. Really, would Westboro stoop that low?

  15. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I'd "heard" Westboro was planning to protest at her funeral procession , and a Tucson community group was planning to surround the procession with people wearing angel wings to block out any offensive signs. Not sure if that came to pass. Really, would Westboro stoop that low?
    This is hardly new depths for them.

  16. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    This is hardly new depths for them.
    It's not confirmed, just something I heard. Was hoping someone had the facts, because I'll be damned to give those freaks another name search hit.

  17. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Like I said, violent crimes by incident may be lower, but one incident can create several victims. I'm not sure that's something being followed statistically.
    I'm pretty sure those are statistics per capita, not per incident.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 01-14-2011 at 12:06 AM.

  18. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Two things: 1) Violence in general. Are you saying all the public schools, universities, airports, state/federal office buildings are being "alarmist" with their safety screenings? Those precautions are just to appease an unreasonable or hysterical public? Or is it because we've had more violence in recent years, the kind that harms several people in one fell swoop....
    I refuse to get drawn into an Alber-argument, where you constantly shift the discussion into broader, more generalized and more vague topics in a desperate attempt to find some ground on which you aren't pretty much just wrong. This thread has a perfectly good topic, violent or violence-alluding speech, specifically in politics.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  19. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I refuse to get drawn into an Alber-argument, where you constantly shift the discussion into broader, more generalized and more vague topics in a desperate attempt to find some ground on which you aren't pretty much just wrong.
    Suit yourself. Contrary to your preconceived notions, I don't have any particular agenda. All along I've been discussing my personal perspective and impressions about civility or nastiness in political discourse, plus my view that American society has become more dangerous/violent. Surely in the last couple of decades. There was a seemingly "mild" level of violence between the 60's and current day. Reagan and the Pope (and even Lennon) being shot led to a new age of security.

    It's not so inane to comment on what children experience today, compared to previous decades. Ditto for air travel, international travel, security measures in general. That's my frame of reference. Sue me.

  20. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Not sure what you're asking as definitive "proof", but I mean the US (not the UK).

    http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/822099-overview

    From the NCICP link dated 2008, related to new coding and reporting data:

    http://www.cdc.gov/violencepreventio...ersion_3-a.pdf
    That says nothing whatsoever to do with the "there are more GSWs and violent assaults than ever." Do you have anything do back up that claim?
    All along I've been discussing my personal perspective and impressions about civility or nastiness in political discourse, plus my view that American society has become more dangerous/violent. Surely in the last couple of decades.
    Dare I ask it, do you have any evidence at all for this claim either?

  21. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    That says nothing whatsoever to do with the "there are more GSWs and violent assaults than ever." Do you have anything do back up that claim?
    You mean definitive data, that's not specific by area? Comparing general emergency room census with border states (immigration), gang presence (border states plus urban centers), urban vs suburban vs rural? No, I don't have that fact sheet off hand. Would one fact sheet convince you, anyway? Specific data collection has a lagging factor. Whether it's violent trauma or communicable diseases.

    But we can make a general assumption about severity and impact, by what emergency departments and first responders are focusing on.

    In other words, HIV has less to do with "frequency" than "virility". GSWs have less to do with "frequency" than "impact".

    Germs and guns have some things in common. Most people don't blink an eye when talking about childhood vaccinations, or STDs. Those "rates" are also lower, historically. That doesn't mean germs simply went away, or pose less of a threat. Indeed, virology and bacteriology has shown us that even "simple" things like malaria or cholera or HIV can kill millions of people.

    But the same people will readily argue about whether gun violence or violent assaults are more frequent by incident or per capita? No big deal, the damage done is less than ever, because violence "in general" is less than ever?


  22. #292
    http://www.theworldforgotten.com/sho...ll=1#post64396

    OPINION | JANUARY 10, 2011
    The Arizona Tragedy and the Politics of Blood Libel
    .....Blood Libel.....I'd like to know if you were aware of its historic meanings before you posted that article from the WSJ, Dread.

    (I'd never heard of it, but apparently it's quite heavy in context. Suggesting Jews killed Christian babies to drink their blood, quite a slur. WSJ used it and so did Sarah Palin, with admonishment from the Jewish community.)

    Comments?

  23. #293
    Doesn't really bother me. At it's most basic, a blood libel is a "big lie" that holds an entire group responsible for some kind of horrific murder of innocents. That's what some elements on the left are doing with this shooting.

    That one of the victims happens to be Jewish is sorta incidental.

  24. #294


    About 3minutes + she mentions the "manufactured" Blood Libel. Yeah, she really said pundints.

    Here's the definition of Blood Libel:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel


    It didn't really bother me, either. Until I read how it upset the Jewish community----that Palin thinks she's being martyred like the Jews?

    Also, who the hell is her advisor and speech writer? If this is the best she can do, she's toast.

  25. #295
    It's upsetting partisan Democratic Jews who didn't read the WSJ use the same analogy a day or two before. And who understandably don't like issues that have historically involved Jews to be turned into catchphrases.

    Which I get, but doesn't mean the comparison isn't at all valid.

  26. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    It's upsetting partisan Democratic Jews who didn't read the WSJ use the same analogy a day or two before. And who understandably don't like issues that have historically involved Jews to be turned into catchphrases.

    Which I get, but doesn't mean the comparison isn't at all valid.
    What? You mean it's valid for her to compare herself to the same kind of "victim" as Blood Libel?

    I think she probably had read the WSJ article, and so did her speech writer. But they had no idea what Blood Libel meant historically for Jewish people.

  27. #297
    What ‘blood libel’ really means
    By Jonathan Zimmerman

    In 1255, an 8-year-old boy named Hugh was found dead at the bottom of a well in Lincoln, England. Rumors spread across the village, and soon everyone knew who had done it: the Jews.

    But the Jews had done more than simply kill “Hugh of Lincoln,” as the young martyr was called. No, villagers said, it was much worse than that. The Jews — always “the” Jews — had kidnapped the boy, fattened him on milk and white bread for 10 days, and then slaughtered him to use his blood in their Passover ritual.

    And that, my fellow Americans, was a real “blood libel.” Not the kind invoked by Sarah Palin, who needs a little history lesson of her own.

    By now, you’ve probably seen or read about Palin’s Facebook response to last weekend’s Arizona tragedy. In an eight-minute video clip posted on Wednesday, Palin lambasted critics who blamed angry political rhetoric for the shooting of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the deaths of six others.

    “Especially within hours of a tragedy unfolding, journalists and pundits should not manufacture a blood libel that serves only to incite the very hatred and violence they purport to condemn,” Palin declared, looking straight at the camera. “That is reprehensible.”

    Fair enough. But politicians shouldn’t use careless metaphors that do violence to real historical suffering, either. That’s reprehensible, too.

    Let’s be clear: Palin was right about her critics, and she had every right to fight back. It was grossly unfair for Democrats to fault her — or any other Republican — for the heinous acts of Jared Loughner, who shot Giffords outside a Tuscon mall last Saturday.

    True, our airwaves are full of violent political rhetoric. And yes, Palin’s own website once posted a graphic depicting Giffords’ congressional district inside a rifle’s cross hairs.

    But we have no idea if any of these words or images affected Loughner, whose motives and politics remain largely unknown. At this stage, then, pretending that Republicans are responsible for the Arizona tragedy is, well, a libel against the GOP.

    But is it a blood libel? Of course not. And to see why, consider what happened after the death of Hugh of Lincoln.

    A local Jew was arrested and tortured into “confessing” to Hugh’s murder. Then he and 92 other Jews were jailed; eventually, eighteen of them were hanged.

    So it went, across Europe, from Gloucester and Bristol — two other sites of blood-libel charges in England — to Paris, Salzburg, and Seville. Historians have counted over 100 such episodes between the 11th and 19th centuries, all of them ending in torture, imprisonment, or death for Jews.

    Why did Jews want Christian blood? It depended on whom you asked. According to one well-worn myth, Jewish men sought to replenish the blood that they shed when they were circumcised. Others speculated that Jewish men menstruated, which also led to blood loss — and the need to replace it.

    And when Europeans came to the Americas, they brought the blood-libel canard with them. In 1850, a New York newspaper ran a front-page story reporting that Jews had bled a Christian missionary to death in the Middle East and mixed his blood with matzoh (unleavened bread) for Passover.

    Other Jewish holidays raised similar fears. A few months after the missionary story, on the eve of Yom Kippur, New York was seized by rumors that Jews had killed a Christian girl for the holiest day of their year. The next morning, on Yom Kippur itself, a mob of 500 ransacked a local synagogue to avenge the imaginary crime.

    As late as 1928, in Massena, N.Y., Jews faced blood-libel charges in the disappearance of a 4-year-old girl. After all, the town’s mayor noted, the girl had disappeared just two days before Yom Kippur; perhaps Jews had killed her as part of their worship. When the child was discovered a few days later, unharmed, the mayor was forced to apologize.

    And just last year, in British Columbia, a Muslim newspaper reported that Israel was allegedly conspiring to kidnap 25,000 Ukranian children and to harvest their organs. After a sharp public outcry, the newspaper removed the article from its website and apologized.

    Palin should apologize, too. And not just to Jews, including Giffords.

    No, Palin should apologize to all of us. In a speech condemning the irresponsibility of her critics, who have played fast and loose with the facts, Palin did something even worse: She trivialized one of the great crimes of human history.


    Are the Republicans to blame for the Arizona shootings? Of course not. But by suggesting as much, were the Democrats doing something akin to mass murder? Palin knows the answer. Now let’s see if she has the courage and the decency to say it.

    Jonathan Zimmerman teaches history and education at New York University. He is the author of “Small Wonder: The Little Red Schoolhouse in History and Memory.”
    http://www.ajc.com/opinion/what-bloo...ly-803503.html

    Just asking, because (like I said) I'd never heard the term before. But it's not too much to expect VP candidates, future Presidential candidates, political leaders with a large following, or their speech writers to know this historical information.....right? After all, they're our international diplomats.

  28. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    It's not confirmed, just something I heard. Was hoping someone had the facts, because I'll be damned to give those freaks another name search hit.
    It's not unusual at all for them. This is pretty much all they do these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    No, I don't have that fact sheet off hand.
    I think Loki already posted the numbers for this. If five people get injured in a single violent incident, that counts as five counts of assault. The crime data numbers already takes into account what you've been talking about, and the numbers have been steadily dropping for a while now.

  29. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    http://www.ajc.com/opinion/what-bloo...ly-803503.html

    Just asking, because (like I said) I'd never heard the term before. But it's not too much to expect VP candidates, future Presidential candidates, political leaders with a large following, or their speech writers to know this historical information.....right? After all, they're our international diplomats.
    It's really not much more different than using the phrase "lynching", is it?

  30. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I think Loki already posted the numbers for this. If five people get injured in a single violent incident, that counts as five counts of assault. The crime data numbers already takes into account what you've been talking about, and the numbers have been steadily dropping for a while now.
    In the year 2000 United States had an estimated population of 626,932 which ranked the state as having the 48th in population. For that year the State of United States had a total Crime Index of 4,249.4 reported incidents per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 22nd highest total Crime Index. For Violent Crime United States had a reported incident rate of 566.9 per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 10th highest occurrence for Violent Crime among the states. For crimes against Property, the state had a reported incident rate of 3,682.5 per 100,000 people, which ranked as the state 23rd highest. Also in the year 2000 United States had 4.3 Murders per 100,000 people, ranking the state as having the 26th highest rate for Murder. United States’s 70.3 reported Forced Rapes per 100,000 people, ranked the state 1st highest. For Robbery, per 100,000 people, United States’s rate was 78.2 which ranked the state as having the 33rd highest for Robbery. The state also had 405.1 Aggravated Assaults for every 100,000 people, which indexed the state as having the 10th highest position for this crime among the states. For every 100,000 people there were 621.9 Burglaries, which ranks United States as having the 31st highest standing among the states. Larceny - Theft were reported 2,685.8 times per hundred thousand people in United States which standing is the 22nd highest among the states. Vehicle Theft occurred 374.8 times per 100,000 people, which fixed the state as having the 24th highest for vehicle theft among the states.

    I don't see GSWs or gun-related violence delineated in that data. Not even sure what "population of 626,932" means.....we have 300 million people +/-.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •