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Thread: Shooting Justified?

  1. #1

    Default Shooting Justified?

    You may need a Google or YouTube account to watch this, not sure if the embed will work:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV6Bq8xeQrU



    The SLC Tribune uploaded a police video of a meth addict being shot during a drug raid (they police thought he was a dealer). Well, I'll post post the video.

    Police video shows how drug raid turned deadly
    By Erin Alberty

    The Salt Lake Tribune
    Published: December 24, 2010 06:54AM
    Updated: January 14, 2011 05:29PM

    Shouts break the evening silence.

    “Police! Search warrant!”

    Officers burst through the door. A man appears across the room. Metal glints from his clasped hands. Shots echo from a police-issue Glock 22. Todd Blair slumps to the floor.

    “Five seconds,” said Blair’s mother, Arlean. “In five seconds, he was dead.”

    Officers entered Blair’s home Sept. 16 during a drug raid when he stepped into the hall, wielding a golf club, police video shows. Ogden police Sgt. Troy Burnett shot Blair, 45, in the head and chest.

    The shooting was deemed legally justified.

    “They could have handled it a lot better,” Arlean Blair countered. “They could have tasered him. They could have done a lot of things other than shoot him.”

    Investigation reports obtained by The Tribune depict an operation that took some unexpected turns away from protocol before that one explosive moment.



    Grounds for search • Whether Todd Blair was a meth dealer or just a well-connected addict is a matter of dispute. Investigators from Weber and Morgan counties began watching Blair in 2009 after hearing that he was letting drug dealers live at his home in exchange for their products, according to the search warrant request. There were previous reports of meth traffic to and from the home, near 5900 South and 2600 West in Roy.

    Investigators gathered evidence that it was Blair’s roommate, Melanie Chournos, buying and selling meth — a factor in the no-knock search that would precede Blair’s death.

    Detectives later saw Blair leaving for short, nighttime trips, which suggested drug trades, they wrote. Two tipsters claimed that they had seen Blair — not just Chournos — handing drugs to customers.

    Investigators, however, didn’t report seeing Blair make a transaction.

    “He was not a dealer,” Arlean Blair insists. “I know that he used ... but he was not a drug dealer. A drug dealer has lots of money and nice things. If you looked in his house, he had nothing. He gave everything away to people who were having trouble.”

    Two of Blair’s friends claimed they never saw him even use drugs, but others told police he had caved in to his meth addiction.

    “He was paranoid,” Candice Coburn — Blair’s on-again, off-again girlfriend — is quoted as saying in a police interview. “His brain was fried. He would punch and yell at invisible people and me.”

    Coburn has told The Tribune that she described no such delusions to police, nor did she ever witness them.

    “He really was a nice person,” she said. “We had our fights, but ... he was always giving, always helpful.”

    On Sept. 16, the day of Blair’s death, Weber-Morgan Narcotics Strike Force investigator Shane Keyes received word that Blair had 2 ounces of heroin and would be getting more that night. Keyes asked 2nd District Judge Scott M. Hadley for a no-knock, nighttime search warrant because house “lookouts” were known to give warning when police were nearby. Meth dissolves quickly, Keyes added, and “if given the opportunity, Chournos will destroy the evidence.”

    However, the warrant doesn’t mention that Chournos had already moved out of Blair’s home — a development officers noted in interviews after his death.

    “I had been told that there was some ... domestic violence,” said Weber County sheriff’s Sgt. Nate Hutchinson, who was involved with the raid.

    Blair was living alone. Because of the reports of violence, officers decided to wait until he left, pull him over in his Pontiac Grand Am and then search the empty house.



    “Dynamic entry” • That night, officers saw people come and go from the home. Finally, a man matching Blair’s description got into the car with a woman and drove away.

    Officers pulled them over, but instead found it was Blair’s friend, who had been staying with him. Police released the couple and returned their attention to Blair’s home.

    The SWAT team prepared for a “dynamic entry” — breaking through the door and subduing anyone inside.

    Normally, that involves extensive planning, officers said in investigation interviews.

    “A PowerPoint presentation is typically put together (and) a briefing of everybody sitting around the round table in our office ... and all the details are laid out as far as the suspect, the location, the route in, the ... evacuation points and ... where the closest medical [facility] is,” officer Brandon Beck said in a transcribed interview with county investigators.

    Instead, the team gathered at a nearby retirement home to go over the plan.

    To do a dynamic entry without the in-office briefing is “absolutely not our standard,” said Burnett, the officer who shot Blair, during an interview with investigators.

    On the video, minutes before the raid begins, an officer can be heard asking the group, “Did somebody grab a copy of the warrant off my desk?”

    “Oh, don’t tell me that,” Burnett replies. He then tells the other officers, “He doesn’t have a copy of the warrant.”

    Because the warrant was for a no-knock search, the copy wasn’t necessary to enter the house, Weber County Attorney Dee Smith said.

    “Someone could have easily hurried and brought it back [from the office],” he said.

    There is no time limit for when a warrant should be presented to a subject, agreed Ogden Police Chief Jon Greiner — “it depends on the situation” — but generally when a warrant is served, “It’s in [officers’] possession at the time.”

    As the raid played out, Blair wouldn’t ask for the warrant anyway.



    Officers rush in • Burnett was assigned to lead the team in. It wouldn’t be his first use of deadly force — in 2006, he shot and killed white supremacist William Glen Maw after Maw fled from a traffic stop and then turned and pointed a gun at Burnett. Then-Weber County District Attorney Mark De Caria commended him for his bravery.

    Outside Blair’s house, Burnett held his .40-caliber Glock 22 “at the low ready,” with a round in the chamber. Six other officers were behind him. It was about 9:30 p.m. when they began to yell, “Police! Search warrant!”

    After three strikes on the door, it burst open.

    Accounts of what happened next vary by a second here and a foot there.

    Those minutiae matter, Smith said.

    “We actually broke [the video] down frame by frame,” he said.

    The second man in, Ogden officer Jared Francom, said Burnett had gotten “about one foot in the door” when gunfire erupted.

    Burnett recalled:

    “The door flew open. I was first in the door. I went to the right to ... a living-room area. ... I moved to the right to dig my corners.

    “[The number of] feet from the front door to where I first saw him, I don’t know ... eight feet from inside the front door, but I had went ... to the right. I don’t know how far.”

    Blair appeared in the door frame holding a MacGregor Lite golf club in the stance of a right-handed batter.

    “He had some silver thing. ... I thought it was a sword or something,” Burnett said. “It was silverish and thin.

    “I didn’t think about saying words. I just thought about not getting hit, or slashed or whatever.”

    The distance from Burnett to Blair has been estimated between “a little more than an arm’s length away,” according to Burnett, to 8 feet, as reflected by a scale diagram showing positions of the shell casings.

    “There’s no way to say an exact measure,” Smith said.

    Also important is whether Blair was moving toward the officers. Blair initially wasn’t in the doorway but appeared about a second later — technically an “approach,” Smith said. Then he appears to take “about two steps into the doorway with the club raised,” Smith said.

    Burnett didn’t remember Blair advancing.

    “I’m sure that I was moving forward,” he said. “I don’t know if he was. He was just — it seemed like he was just kind of still. ... I can’t recall him chasing after me. I don’t recall that. He was just right there.”

    Francom said, “It appeared to me that he was coming toward us. But there wasn’t much time for him to make too much of an advance before.”

    Ultimately, Smith said, it was Burnett who didn’t have time to wait.

    “Our best conclusion is it would have taken less than half a second for Mr. Blair to close that gap and strike the officer,” he said.



    Aftermath • Video after the shooting shows an officer putting handcuffs on Blair and searching for a pulse. Burnett orders a call to medics and stays in the front room, while other officers search the house.

    “Everybody out,” Burnett says. “This is a different crime scene now.”

    It isn’t clear from evidence logs whether investigators found the drugs they were looking for. There was paraphernalia and “a small, pink plastic bag with a white crystal substance.”

    But neither the substance nor its amount is identified, and officials with the Weber-Morgan Narcotics Strike Force didn’t return The Tribune’s calls for comment.

    Ogden police investigated the shooting independently and agreed it was justified.

    “He had less than a second to make a decision with a guy swinging what looked like a sword in his hands,” Greiner said. “We train these officers regularly on how to defend themselves and be able to go home at night.”

    He said his department also reviewed strategies for no-knock search warrants.

    “We’ve discussed a couple of ways as to how we can be more careful,” he said without elaborating. “The problem is, what you’re looking for could easily be destroyed and there’s generally weapons. ... I just don’t know an easy way to get in there.”

    Blair’s family has obtained a copy of the video and reports. Neither Arlean Blair nor her two daughters have viewed them.

    “No way,” said Todd Blair’s sister, Delene Hyde. “How could I watch my brother’s murder?”

    The family has discussed suing police but hasn’t finalized anything.

    “We decided to let it rest until after Christmas,” Arlean Blair said. “Christmas is a special time in our family — him [Todd Blair] included.”

    Editor’s note: The story has been updated to reflect that Candice Coburn’s remarks were quoted from police reports. Coburn has since told The Tribune that she never saw Blair “punch and yell at invisible people” and made no such statement to police.

    Utah’s deadly force law

    76-2-404. Peace officer’s use of deadly force.

    (1) A peace officer, or any person acting by his command in his aid and assistance, is justified in using deadly force when:

    (c) the officer reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to the officer or another person.

    (2) If feasible, a verbal warning should be given by the officer prior to any use of deadly force under Subsection (1)(c).

  2. #2
    This is a very tough case; I honestly don't know the legal angle, but from a 'right or wrong' angle... hmm. My uncle used to work in a tactical narcotics team in the Chicago PD and I learned a bit about the kind of situations they train for and deal with. In general, there is very little time to react to a situation in this kind of search, and the officers are geared up for a fight with deadly force (which happens all too often - look at the number of cops who are killed doing this kind of thing). Hell, it's not just a cop thing - any soldier in an urban warfare zone can attest to the dicey nature of house searches when your targets are invariably armed and liable to open fire. Plenty of cases of mistaken identity happen - whether mistaking the individual, whether they are armed, and their intentions. Given that backdrop, it's not unreasonable for a cop bursting in on a potentially explosive situation to shoot at a man who's holding up some sort of weapon (improvised or not).

    On the flip side, looking at it from the resident's perspective, he probably didn't even have a chance to process the shouts that the intruders were the police; all he heard was a shout, his door being broken down, and someone quickly entering his home. It's not surprising that one might grab the closest club-like object and try to investigate.

    All in all, I'd say the shooting was unfortunate but possibly justified - albeit marginally. Most of the details of the case are unimportant (e.g. the legal details of having the search warrant present, the amount of planning involved, etc.) - what really matters is whether the cop overreacted given the information he had. It's hard to know exactly what he knew, but it sounds like the narrative he was given was that he was going up against a potentially armed and violent drug dealer, and the resident obliged his preconceptions by showing up holding a club as soon as they entered.

    In short, I wouldn't necessarily fault the officer, but perhaps fault the situation and the broader planning/intelligence of the operation. Maybe SOP should be changed to make sure the apartment is empty before entering; maybe officers should go in with less lethal weapons (though I'd hesitate to do this; less lethal weapons don't always work as quickly or effectively as a gun, and they also give officers an incentive to overuse them given the lower costs of false positives). Who knows?

  3. #3
    This was highly unnecessary, he had a gold club, they had tazers, body armor, and at least 10 people. They could have easily subdued him. Furthermore, shooting him two-four times was plain stupid and the officer who shot the man should be condemned for his stupidity. A single shot to the leg or arm would have in capacitate the man long enough for the others to subdue him if he showed any resistance.

    I bet the officer has personal problems.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega View Post
    This was highly unnecessary, he had a gold club, they had tazers, body armor, and at least 10 people. They could have easily subdued him. Furthermore, shooting him two-four times was plain stupid and the officer who shot the man should be condemned for his stupidity. A single shot to the leg or arm would have in capacitate the man long enough for the others to subdue him if he showed any resistance.

    I bet the officer has personal problems.
    You do this on purpose, don't you?

  5. #5
    Oh look, another avoidable death arising from the execution of a "no-knock" warrant. Society and our justice system are going to have to figure out which they value more highly. Avoiding unnecessary loss of life or securing evidence.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    You do this on purpose, don't you?
    Uhnnnn, do what?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Oh look, another avoidable death arising from the execution of a "no-knock" warrant. Society and our justice system are going to have to figure out which they value more highly. Avoiding unnecessary loss of life or securing evidence.
    Do you have any data on how often people are killed using no-knock warrants? I find it likely it's an extremely low percentage of cases.

    This doesn't argue for or against the warrants (I can see both sides of the argument), but it definitely questions whether the no-knock warrants pose such a high chance of avoidable deaths that they should be eliminated entirely.

  8. #8
    The real problem is that "no knock" search warrants, when there is no evidence that the suspect(s) would not give themselves up peacefully, should be illegal.

    I do think that if you're going to do a raid of a warehouse with bad guys handling lots of weapons, you need the element of surprise... but on a small house with one suspect?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Do you have any data on how often people are killed using no-knock warrants? I find it likely it's an extremely low percentage of cases.

    This doesn't argue for or against the warrants (I can see both sides of the argument), but it definitely questions whether the no-knock warrants pose such a high chance of avoidable deaths that they should be eliminated entirely.
    No idea about formal statistics, but a quick survey of major news reports bring up about 1 or 2 a year, usually not the cops. Injuries have to be a fair amount higher. It's just one of the problems I have with the no-knock . I'm from California though, we had police officers and former officers in a burglary ring which conducted heists by pretending to be a no-knock raid.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  10. #10
    It's not just dangerous, it's often ineffective.

    Death by SWAT Raid

    Collateral raid damage


    December 5, 2008


    In January 2007, a SWAT team in Lima, Ohio, shot and killed Tarika Wilson, a 26-year-old mother, during a drug raid at the home of her boyfriend, Anthony Terry. When the unarmed Wilson was shot, she was kneeling on the ground, complying with police orders. She was holding her 1-year-old son, Sincere, who was also shot, losing his left hand. A subsequent investigation revealed that Officer Joseph Chavalia heard another officer shooting Terry’s two dogs, mistook the noise for hostile gunfire, panicked, and fired blindly into the room where Wilson was kneeling. Chavalia was charged with involuntary manslaughter, but acquitted.

    As reckless and violent as the raid was, the police did at least find a substantial supply of illegal drugs inside the house, and Anthony Terry later pleaded guilty to felony drug distribution. A subsequent investigation by the Lima News showed that despite the inherent danger and small margin for error, SWAT raids conducted by the Lima Police Department frequently turned up no drugs or weapons at all. The paper found that in one-third of the 198 raids the SWAT team conducted from 2001 to 2008, no contraband was found.

    Similar reviews in other cities have produced similar results: A surprisingly high percentage of raids produce neither drugs nor weapons. And the weapons that are found tend to be small, concealable handguns, with few raids resulting in felony convictions.

    A Denver Post investigation found that in 80 percent of no-knock raids conducted in Denver in 1999, police assertions that there would be weapons in the targeted home turned out to be wrong. A separate investigation by the Rocky Mountain News found that of the 146 no-knock warrants served in Denver in 1999, just 49 resulted in criminal charges, and only two resulted in prison time. Media investigations produced similar results after high-profile mistaken raids in New York City in 2003, in Atlanta in 2007, and in Orlando and Palm Beach, Florida, in 1998. When the results of the Denver investigation were revealed, former prosecutor Craig Silverman said, “When you have that violent intrusion on people’s homes with so little results, you have to ask why.”

    Lima police apparently aren’t as concerned. When told of the Lima News investigation, police spokesman Kevin Martin said, “That means 68 percent of the time, we’re getting guns or drugs off the street. We’re not looking at it as a win-loss record like a football team does.”

  11. #11
    No knock warrent, middle of the night.
    Homeowner jolted awake, not even out of the hallway, defensive stance, protecting his property/self, shot to death by trigger happy police officer from the other side of the room.

    Justified? Not in the slightest. Thats the problem, the police in this case are so high on hiding behind what they consider a legal raid that they don't even see a problem with this scenario.

    The probability of killing innocent homeowners using no knock raids shouldn't even be something that needs discussed.

  12. #12
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Agree with OG. This is exactly what could happen. I could be killed by my government for defending myself against an unknown attacker. The cons outweigh the pros.
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    No idea about formal statistics, but a quick survey of major news reports bring up about 1 or 2 a year, usually not the cops. Injuries have to be a fair amount higher.
    By the article Enoch quoted, the great city of Lima, Ohio has about 30 raids a year. I can't imagine how many happen nationally; my lazy google ended up with a Wiki article (I know, I know, WikiFist and all) quoting some study suggesting over 50,000 raids a year in the US. If the results of the raids are a significant lowering of crime (that's a big if, and I don't know if it's true), I think 1 accidental death a year is not necessarily a reason to scrap the program entirely - plenty of people get killed in law enforcement in other circumstances every year, too - we have on the order of 20,000 traffic deaths a year, but don't consider banning automobiles; if there is a net societal benefit, we might have to accept some mistakes. Obviously even one death should be enough to make us rethink the procedures and training involved, but it isn't a wholesale indictment of the procedure.

    It's just one of the problems I have with the no-knock . I'm from California though, we had police officers and former officers in a burglary ring which conducted heists by pretending to be a no-knock raid.
    That's largely irrelevant to whether no-knock warrants should be around. We could also get rid of meter reading and census taking because people are defrauded or burglarized by posers.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I think 1 accidental death a year is not necessarily a reason to scrap the program entirely - plenty of people get killed in law enforcement in other circumstances every year, too - we have on the order of 20,000 traffic deaths a year, but don't consider banning automobiles;.
    There is a huge difference between an accident and something thats justified by following procedure.
    Even if you're stuck on your automobile stat, there is a strong push for police not to partake in high speed chases (know my county already follows) because of the risk to the public, especially when they have other modes and ways to track the runner.

  15. #15
    This was an accident; an accident of mistaken intent. Obviously the cop wouldn't have shot the guy if he thought he posed no threat (otherwise we'd have a lot more than one or two deaths a year out of 50,000 cases). Show me a good alternative and I'll gladly suggest we should get rid of no-knock warrants. In the absence of an effective alternative, might it be better to work on fixing problems in the system rather than throwing it out wholesale?

  16. #16
    I think a more apropos question would be how necessary these things are when we contrast US crime rate etc. to other developed nations without such a high (relative) incidence of cop-related deaths. If we can show that other countries manage their crime without shooting one out of fifty thousand people willy-nilly, does the US have to?

    Of course you can fall back to the US lack of a volksgemeinschaft and the associated special circumstances, but black people are invading Europe too.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    I'm sure the cop genuinely believed there was a threat, but isn't that the inherent problem? You're allowed to defend your home after all. He had no way of establishing whether they were real cops or not.

    It also seems like a situation where a taser would have been a good option. Another thing it's that according to the article the police are very hush hush about what they found and whether he was a dealer or not which suggests the raid was not justified..

    Wiggin, how many of those thousands of no knock raids are actually needed? They can be useful, sure, but if 80% had no weapons and only a small fraction of the cases lead to charges on serious crimes it seems seriously overused. A raid like this is a useful tool for the police but with its high risks it should not be used lightly.

  18. #18
    On a different note, given that for-profit prison industry is such a growing and booming sector of US GDP, it's an awful waste to let cops shoot people. For financial growth it'd be best if people were kept alive and only beaten to death after a prolonged time of sodomy and wanton violence within for-profit jail-houses.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I think a more apropos question would be how necessary these things are when we contrast US crime rate etc. to other developed nations without such a high (relative) incidence of cop-related deaths. If we can show that other countries manage their crime without shooting one out of fifty thousand people willy-nilly, does the US have to?

    Of course you can fall back to the US lack of a volksgemeinschaft and the associated special circumstances, but black people are invading Europe too.
    I think you answered your own question. The US is different; superficial comparisons with other countries are almost invariably going to fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I'm sure the cop genuinely believed there was a threat, but isn't that the inherent problem? You're allowed to defend your home after all. He had no way of establishing whether they were real cops or not.
    Agreed; I recognized this issue in my first post - in fact, I doubt he even realized the intruders were cops before he was shot. I just don't think that means that no-knock warrants should be abolished entirely, but rather that procedures should be tightened up.

    It also seems like a situation where a taser would have been a good option. Another thing it's that according to the article the police are very hush hush about what they found and whether he was a dealer or not which suggests the raid was not justified..
    I'm not a big fan of less-lethal weapons, and it's awfully hard to know what kind of weapons or range you'll need in this kind of situation.

    Wiggin, how many of those thousands of no knock raids are actually needed? They can be useful, sure, but if 80% had no weapons and only a small fraction of the cases lead to charges on serious crimes it seems seriously overused. A raid like this is a useful tool for the police but with its high risks it should not be used lightly.
    I don't know how many raids are needed, and I definitely can see a good argument that they are overused. In fact, I think your last line is spot on - this is an important tool that we shouldn't eliminate from the repertoire, but perhaps we should change the circumstances in which a no-knock warrant can be obtained, as well as change the procedures governing the execution of said warrants.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I think you answered your own question. The US is different; superficial comparisons with other countries are almost invariably going to fail.
    That's a very un-PC position to hold, and current 'conventional' wisdom says you're a proponent of heavy racism, sexism and Lord knows what else for saying it. The hysterical humanities academia aside, what exactly are you arguing? That the un-rooted, multi-racial and stupidity-worshiping culture of the US warrants the current level of brutalization and accidental deaths by the authorities? That's not all that different from arguing that Germany's history was a long prologue to National Socialism, or that Russians deserved Stalinism because they were Russian.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  21. #21
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    But this will still lead to an eventual hell on earth for someone.

    Very Plausible Scenario:

    Cops use no knock and rush into home.

    Home owner wakes up and sees guys in the dark bust into his bedroom and he fires at them, tagging one in the noggin.

    They fire back because How Dare He Shoot at the Sainted (Unannounced) Police!

    If by some miracle this guy survives the retaliatory fire from the cops, you think he will get a pass from prosecution?
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    But this will still lead to an eventual hell on earth for someone.

    Very Plausible Scenario:

    Cops use no knock and rush into home.

    Home owner wakes up and sees guys in the dark bust into his bedroom and he fires at them, tagging one in the noggin.

    They fire back because How Dare He Shoot at the Sainted (Unannounced) Police!

    If by some miracle this guy survives the retaliatory fire from the cops, you think he will get a pass from prosecution?
    So long as the cops are working for the benefit of the for-profit prison industry, how can any serious supporter of free market capitalism argue against their sanctity, or sainthood if you prefer?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus
    That's a very un-PC position to hold, and current 'conventional' wisdom says you're a proponent of heavy racism, sexism and Lord knows what else for saying it. The hysterical humanities academia aside, what exactly are you arguing? That the un-rooted, multi-racial and stupidity-worshiping culture of the US warrants the current level of brutalization and accidental deaths by the authorities? That's not all that different from arguing that Germany's history was a long prologue to National Socialism, or that Russians deserved Stalinism because they were Russian.
    Please, I'm not saying anything of the sort. You were trying to draw a correlation between accidental shootings by police and the crime rate, ostensibly arguing that a more aggressive police force should reduce the crime rate (with the corollary that since other countries don't have as aggressive as police force but lower crime rates, the comparison is invalid). That's very lazy thinking. For one, base crime rates are different; it's hard to know what the US or, say, Finnish crime rate would look like in the absence or presence of a specific policy. Second, the crimes and criminals are different; widespread use of firearms by criminals in the US makes the job of enforcing law more dangerous, and might warrant a more aggressive stance irrespective of the crime rate. Third, there are a whole host of confounding variables that affect crime rates more than just whether no-knock warrants exist - this is hardly a controlled or even controllable study. Some of those differences might be rooted in demographics or culture as you suggest; I'm not really interested in delving into it.

  24. #24
    You seem very nihilistic on the prospect of having a scientific grasp on the criminal justice system. And you didn't actually answer my question; what exactly it is about the United States of America that requires excessive brutalization of people suspected of committing a crime? Why are the "base crime rates" incomparable?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  25. #25
    I don't think 'excessive brutalization' is necessary at all, and I think I did answer why I feel some more accidental deaths are expected irrespective of the crime rate - both criminals and the police are better armed and more lethal. The base crime rates are incomparable because the starting conditions are different, and the US has had rather higher rates of certain kind of crimes for a long time. Debating the whys of this are likely to go on forever; there are many possibilities that probably all work synergistically.

  26. #26
    You're basically throwing your arms in the air and saying whelp, the US is what it is and we can't fix it. For reference, many European countries, Finland included, had more than one firearm per person in free circulation for ages, and we don't have to shoot one person per fifty thousand to keep crime in check. You can argue your culture is sick and morbid and I'd be on board 100%, but I would also argue that we have the means to change it.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    This was an accident; an accident of mistaken intent. Obviously the cop wouldn't have shot the guy if he thought he posed no threat (otherwise we'd have a lot more than one or two deaths a year out of 50,000 cases). Show me a good alternative and I'll gladly suggest we should get rid of no-knock warrants. In the absence of an effective alternative, might it be better to work on fixing problems in the system rather than throwing it out wholesale?
    Not once have the police involved admitted this was an accident. Know why? Because the word accident has legal ramifications. Police don't want to risk dealing with that, or even losing their no-knock ability, because of an admitted accident. This was procedure. The cop reacted how he was trained to react. He took the information he was given (perceived threat, flight and evidence risk) and made a bad decision. He can't be completely blamed for this, but absolutely no blame can be placed on the victim he murdered. That alone shows the problem with no-knock entrances.

    and are you seriously suggesting that the only way to catch (suspected) meth dealers is with no-knock warrants and live ammo?

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I don't know how many raids are needed, and I definitely can see a good argument that they are overused. In fact, I think your last line is spot on - this is an important tool that we shouldn't eliminate from the repertoire, but perhaps we should change the circumstances in which a no-knock warrant can be obtained, as well as change the procedures governing the execution of said warrants.
    Just out of curiosity, what do you think would be a circumstance where executing a no-knock warrant would be appropriate? Are we generally thinking it's in drug related cases?

    Article related.


    4.5 SWAT Raids Per Day

    Maryland's SWAT transparency bill produces its first disturbing results

    Cheye Calvo's July 2008 encounter with a Prince George's County, Maryland, SWAT team is now pretty well-known: After intercepting a package of marijuana at a delivery service warehouse, police completed the delivery, in disguise, to the address on the package. That address belonged to Calvo, who also happened to be the mayor of the small Prince George’s town of Berwyn Heights. When Calvo's mother-in-law brought the package in from the porch, the SWAT team pounced, forcing their way into Calvo's home. By the time the raid was over, Calvo and his mother-in-law had been handcuffed for hours, police realized they'd made a mistake, and Calvo's two black Labradors lay dead on the floor from gunshot wounds.
    As a result of this colossal yet not-unprecedented screw-up, plus Calvo's notoriety and persistence, last year Maryland became the first state in the country to make every one of its police departments issue a report on how often and for what purpose they use their SWAT teams. The first reports from the legislation are in, and the results are disturbing.

    Over the last six months of 2009, SWAT teams were deployed 804 times in the state of Maryland, or about 4.5 times per day. In Prince George's County alone, with its 850,000 residents, a SWAT team was deployed about once per day. According to a Baltimore Sun analysis, 94 percent of the state's SWAT deployments were used to serve search or arrest warrants, leaving just 6 percent in response to the kinds of barricades, bank robberies, hostage takings, and emergency situations for which SWAT teams were originally intended.

    Worse even than those dreary numbers is the fact that more than half of the county’s SWAT deployments were for misdemeanors and nonserious felonies. That means more than 100 times last year Prince George’s County brought state-sanctioned violence to confront people suspected of nonviolent crimes. And that's just one county in Maryland. These outrageous numbers should provide a long-overdue wake-up call to public officials about how far the pendulum has swung toward institutionalized police brutality against its citizenry, usually in the name of the drug war.

    But that’s unlikely to happen, at least in Prince George's County. To this day, Sheriff Michael Jackson insists his officers did nothing wrong in the Calvo raid—not the killing of the dogs, not neglecting to conduct any corroborating investigation to be sure they had the correct house, not failing to notify the Berwyn Heights police chief of the raid, not the repeated and documented instances of Jackson’s deputies playing fast and loose with the truth.

    Jackson, who's now running for county executive, is incapable of shame. He has tried to block Calvo's efforts to access information about the raid at every turn. Last week, Prince George's County Circuit Judge Arthur M. Ahalt ruled that Calvo's civil rights suit against the county can go forward. But Jackson has been fighting to delay the discovery process in that suit until federal authorities complete their own investigation into the raid. That would likely (and conveniently) prevent Prince George's County voters from learning any embarrassing details about the raid until after the election.

    But there is some good news to report here, too. The Maryland state law, as noted, is the first of its kind in the country, and will hopefully serve as a model for other states in adding some much-needed transparency to the widespread use and abuse of SWAT teams. And some Maryland legislators want to go even further. State Sen. Anthony Muse (D-Prince George's), for example, wants to require a judge's signature before police can deploy a SWAT team. Muse has sponsored another bill that would ban the use of SWAT teams for misdemeanor offenses. The latter seems like a no-brainer, but it's already facing strong opposition from law enforcement interests. Police groups opposed the transparency bill, too.

    Beyond policy changes, the Calvo raid also seems to have also sparked media and public interest in how SWAT teams are deployed in Maryland. The use of these paramilitary police units has increased dramatically over the last 30 years, by 1,000 percent or more, resulting in the drastic militarization of police. It's a trend that seems to have escaped much media and public notice, let alone informed debate about policies and oversight procedures. But since the Calvo raid in 2008, Maryland newspapers, TV news crews, activists, and bloggers have been documenting mistaken, botched, or disproportionately aggressive raids across the state.
    Lawmakers tend to be wary of questioning law enforcement officials, particularly when it comes to policing tactics. They shouldn't be. If anything, the public employees who are entrusted with the power to use force, including lethal force, deserve the most scrutiny. It's unfortunate that it took a violent raid on a fellow public official for Maryland's policymakers to finally take notice of tactics that have been used on Maryland citizens for decades now. But at least these issues are finally on the table.
    Lawmakers in other states should take notice. It's time to have a national discussion on the wisdom of sending phalanxes of cops dressed like soldiers into private homes in search of nonviolent and consensual crimes.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 01-19-2011 at 06:07 PM.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus
    You're basically throwing your arms in the air and saying whelp, the US is what it is and we can't fix it. For reference, many European countries, Finland included, had more than one firearm per person in free circulation for ages, and we don't have to shoot one person per fifty thousand to keep crime in check. You can argue your culture is sick and morbid and I'd be on board 100%, but I would also argue that we have the means to change it.
    Not at all; I just don't think that drawing a connection between crime rates and no-knock warrants is, well, warranted. The discussion of higher US crime rates is for another thread and another time.

    I'm aware that there isn't a tight correlation between firearm ownership and violent crime either - at least across countries (I've made this precise point on other occasions). But within the US, there is a correlation. And it's not even a matter of crime rate per se but the amount of potential lethality in a confrontation between criminals and cops - there's a bit of an arms race in the US which leads to a much higher level of tension in these confrontations. (I also find your mischaracterization of 'shooting one in 50k' to be annoying - we're talking about shooting one in 300 million a year, just out of 50k+ warrants).

    What's your point here, Nessus? I think you would agree that it's hard to draw a straight line from no-knock warrants to crime rate; all of the rest of this is totally irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by OG
    Not once have the police involved admitted this was an accident. Know why? Because the word accident has legal ramifications. Police don't want to risk dealing with that, or even losing their no-knock ability, because of an admitted accident. This was procedure. The cop reacted how he was trained to react. He took the information he was given (perceived threat, flight and evidence risk) and made a bad decision. He can't be completely blamed for this, but absolutely no blame can be placed on the victim he murdered. That alone shows the problem with no-knock entrances.

    and are you seriously suggesting that the only way to catch (suspected) meth dealers is with no-knock warrants and live ammo?
    I don't think the officer acted incorrectly, but I think the death was an error. There is a difference, and I honestly don't care what the cops say or don't say for legal reasons.

    I think that no-knock warrants are a valid and often useful way of catching any number of criminals, including some drug dealers. The rules need to be tightened up, though.

    Enoch: I don't see why it should specifically be drug related cases. Any crime where evidence can easily be obscured or where violence is a likely outcome of a perpetrator who has warning can be grounds for a no-knock warrant. It could be anything from a financial crime (destroying papers/hard drive), drug-related crime, or violent crime where the perpetrator is likely to make a stand against the police if given time to prepare.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    But this will still lead to an eventual hell on earth for someone.

    Very Plausible Scenario:

    Cops use no knock and rush into home.

    Home owner wakes up and sees guys in the dark bust into his bedroom and he fires at them, tagging one in the noggin.

    They fire back because How Dare He Shoot at the Sainted (Unannounced) Police!

    If by some miracle this guy survives the retaliatory fire from the cops, you think he will get a pass from prosecution?
    Several versions of this have already happened.

    Police in Atlanta killed an elderly woman for firing at officers who attempted a no-knock raid on a bad address.
    A Ryan Frederick fired at a no-knock raid, survived, and was then charged with capital murder.

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