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Thread: Christian hotel owners penalised for turning away a gay couple

  1. #1
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    Default Christian hotel owners penalised for turning away a gay couple



    • Hotel owner Hazelmary Bull: 'Much is said about "equality and diversity" but it seems some people are more equal than others'
    • Judge: 'It is a very clear example of how social attitudes have changed'
    • Case brought by taxpayer-funded Equality and Human Rights Commission
    • Hotel owners facing financial ruin after they are ordered to pay costs
    Two Christian hotel owners punished for refusing a bed to a gay couple claimed yesterday that their religion is being suppressed.

    Peter and Hazelmary Bull said Christianity had been pushed to the margins of society, and added: ‘Some people are more equal than others.’

    They spoke out after a landmark court decision awarded £1,800 each to civil partners Martyn Hall and Steven Preddy, who were denied a double room under the Bulls’ policy of allowing only married couples to share a bed in the hotel that is also their home.

    The ruling by a judge in Bristol sealed the supremacy of gay rights over Christian belief under the Sexual Orientation Regulations pushed through by Tony Blair four years ago.

    The laws prevent discrimination against homosexuals by businesses and state organisations, but have had the knock-on effect of requiring Christians who run small concerns to set their principles and beliefs aside if they wish to stay in business.

    And Judge Andrew Rutherford also broke new ground by insisting that in the eyes of the law there is no difference between a civil partnership and a marriage.

    Although civil partnership conveys precisely the same rights and privileges on a gay couple as marriage does on heterosexuals, the Labour ministers who introduced civil partnerships always said they were merely contracts and did not amount to marriage.

    But the judge said: ‘There is no material difference between marriage and a civil partnership.’

    His ruling may lead to a long legal battle if the Bulls appeal, with a possibility that the case will go as far as the country’s highest tribunal, the Supreme Court.

    The Bulls were sued over their married-only policy on double beds. They were ordered to pay each of the victims £1,800 in compensation for the ‘hurt and embarrassment they suffered’.

    Outside court, Mrs Bull said the verdict had serious implications for the religious liberty of Christians who would be forced to act against ‘deeply and genuinely held beliefs’.

    The 66-year-old and her husband, 70, live at the seven-bedroom Chymorvah Private Hotel near Penzance, Cornwall, and have only ever allowed married couples to share a double room since they opened for business 25 years ago.

    They had accepted a booking for a double room from Mr Preddy, 38, believing he would be staying with his wife. It was only when he arrived at the £80-a-night hotel with his 46-year-old civil partner that they were turned away.

    IT workers Mr Preddy and Mr Hall described themselves as feeling ‘angry and humiliated’ and contacted police, who helped them find alternative accommodation.

    The two men deny suggestions that their booking was a set-up on behalf of gay rights group Stonewall, which had previously written to the hotel owners about their rules.

    Mrs Bull said: ‘Our double-bed policy was based on our sincere beliefs about marriage, not hostility to anybody. It was applied equally and consistently to unmarried heterosexual couples and homosexual couples, as the judge accepted.’
    She left Bristol County Court to visit her husband in hospital where he was due to have triple heart bypass surgery yesterday.

    Their legal battle was aided by the Christian Institute think tank, while Mr Preddy and Mr Hall were supported by the taxpayer-funded state equality body the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

    Mr and Mrs Bull, who have previously admitted they are struggling to pay debts, are facing financial ruin after being ordered to pay most of the costs of the commission.

    Mr Hall and Mr Preddy, from Bristol, had asked for £5,000 damages, claiming sexual orientation discrimination.

    In his 12-page ruling, Judge Rutherford said that in the past 50 years social attitudes had changed. He added that the Bulls ‘have the right to manifest their religion or beliefs’ and said both sides in the case ‘hold perfectly honourable and respectable, albeit wholly contrary, views’.
    However, he concluded that the Bulls ‘discriminate on the basis of marital status’.

    ‘There is no material difference between marriage and a civil partnership. If that is right, then upon what basis do the defendants draw a distinction if it is not on sexual orientation? The only conclusion which can be drawn is that the refusal to allow [the claimants] to occupy the double room which they had booked was because of their sexual orientation and that this is direct discrimination.’

    Mr Preddy said: ‘The judge has confirmed what we already know – that in these circumstances our civil partnership has the same status in law as a marriage between a man and a woman, and that, regardless of each person’s religious beliefs, no one is above the law.’

    Keith Porteous Wood, of the National Secular Society, said: ‘The court has resisted the pernicious claim that exercising conscience, be it Christian or any other kind, is a carte blanche to defy the law.’

    But Mike Judge, of the Christian Institute, said: ‘This ruling is further evidence that equality laws are being used as a sword rather than a shield. Christians are being sidelined.’

    Source (including over 1000 comments).

    I think this is disgusting. For a country who has produced the likes of John Stuart Mill and contributed to the development of human rights, property rights obviously don't exist there anymore. It's their property, hence they should be allowed to accept or decline anyone that they want, it's not for the government to decide nor for others to take advantage of a stupid law.

    One of the comments said it nicely concerning the gay couple and their action to sue "They DEMAND that people accept they lifestyle and life choices yet when it comes to showing tolerance to other peoples beliefs and life choices they show none."

    For the record, I think discrimination (along with the anti laws) is silly (and whether that was the sole reason here is debatable), I'm not against gay couples, but I am against the government forcing themselves upon the property and will of others. I can understand that the couple must have felt uncomfortable/offended etc but grow up.
    Last edited by Wraith; 01-24-2011 at 04:50 AM.

  2. #2
    History has clearly indicated that the majority of people will always be okay or ambivalent towards the ostracising and killing of minorities and other people incapable of defending themselves. Unless you're open to the idea of staring into an open barrel, you shouldn't cry about people being penalized for hating on Catholics, slavs or faggots.

    Unless faggots really creep you out, of course, I mean who wants a faggot in their neighbourhood? They're worse than niggers!

    Also learn to fucking post, huh
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    History has clearly indicated that the majority of people will always be okay or ambivalent towards the ostracising and killing of minorities and other people incapable of defending themselves. Unless you're open to the idea of staring into an open barrel, you shouldn't cry about people being penalized for hating on Catholics, slavs or faggots.
    But we (at least the Western world) live in the 21st century where ostracising or killing of minorities is no longer acceptable. Using the past as an argument is not justifiable to deny a person their right to property.

    Also learn to fucking post, huh
    I fixed it now.

  4. #4
    And who decreed the "right to property" the highest of moral values? What defines property, or right? If you're willing to enter into the social bargain of catering to people, maybe you should expect the people to accept you as you accept them. Is it a-okay to shoot someone for stealing tooth-paste?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    And who decreed the "right to property" the highest of moral values? What defines property, or right?
    A persons purchase/ownership/inheritance of a block of land, house, apartment floor, building, clothes, car etc etc. That's how I see it. We're not primitive animals. We're humans who have developed a society where such concepts exist to allow it to function in a civilised manner.

    Is it a-okay to shoot someone for stealing tooth-paste?
    No it isn't. I remember reading that topic here several months ago and thought it was atrocious that the person was shot for stealing tooth paste.

  6. #6
    Obviously these things don't allow us to act in a civilized manner, then?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  7. #7
    Yeah, I'm not seeing you on this one, Draco. Seriously, if a bed and breakfast owner in the US did this with an interracial couple or some other heterosexual couple that they object to, there wouldn't even be a discussion on whether it was wrong and illegal.

  8. #8
    I think you will find the average Internet libertarian will tell you that restaurant owners should be able to (if not should) tell niggers, Catholics and other such types to fuck off, if it pleased them. The invisible infallible hand of the Free Market would kill of their racism and bigotry for sure! Government is bad!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  9. #9
    I think the real question is this: what if the hotel owners didn't want to discriminate on the basis of race or sexual orientation or religion or whatever, but rather marital status? That is, they insisted on separate rooms in their home for any unmarried couple (or same-sex domestic unions, whatever). Is that a more valid form of discrimination to match their religious beliefs? To be honest I'm not 100% sure about whether that would be as wrong as other forms of discrimination. Of course, probably a don't ask don't tell policy would work just fine here - how can you prove you're married when you stop at a hotel, anyways?

  10. #10
    I'm pretty sure we could argue that anything against pre-marital sex (or shared bedrooms) has bedrocks in religion rather than common sense.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I'm pretty sure we could argue that anything against pre-marital sex (or shared bedrooms) has bedrocks in religion rather than common sense.
    Bedrock? I'll bet we could argue even more strongly for bedrocks in economics. And far more than bedrock for any location which doesn't have plentiful, convenient, and cheap contraceptives.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  12. #12
    *shrugs* I think an argument can go either way. In the end of the day, I'd stick with slippery slope arguments and opine that a hotel owner probably can't restrict activities in the room that are (a) legal, and (b) unlikely to cause them monetary losses. Anything beyond that is going to get a little complex.

    I don't approve of a lot of things personally, including, say, coprofilia (and it's not from a religious perspective, but just a health one). But as long as they don't make a mess and everything is consensual and legal, who am I to tell them what to do in their room?

  13. #13
    There was a Supreme Court case regarding hotel owners turning away african-americans. I bet this goes to the SP too.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Bedrock? I'll bet we could argue even more strongly for bedrocks in economics. And far more than bedrock for any location which doesn't have plentiful, convenient, and cheap contraceptives.
    Oh poo with you and your convenient buxom ladies

    Even so, given the current dispassion eugenics, argue that regulating sex in hotels is against this or that amendment?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega View Post
    There was a Supreme Court case regarding hotel owners turning away african-americans. I bet this goes to the SP too.
    Right after Britain joins the Union.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Yeah, I'm not seeing you on this one, Draco. Seriously, if a bed and breakfast owner in the US did this with an interracial couple or some other heterosexual couple that they object to, there wouldn't even be a discussion on whether it was wrong and illegal.
    Wrong yes, but really illegal? I wouldn't patronize a business with a policy like this, but surely they should be allowed to run it and exclude whomever they want.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    I fixed it now.
    You didn't really. I hope you don't mind, but I went in and fixed it for you. If you do mind, I can undo the changes. The problem was that most people here use a dark theme, and you had the text colored black, which makes it hard to read.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Wrong yes, but really illegal? I wouldn't patronize a business with a policy like this, but surely they should be allowed to run it and exclude whomever they want.
    Racial discrimination in hotels is pretty illegal IIRC. Wouldn't a hotel classify as a 'public accommodation' and as such be illegal to discriminate in on the basis of the 1964 civil rights act, Title II? You also might be able to argue on the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, but that would be tougher. The only question is whether the law has been effectively extended to sexual orientation as well as race and gender. I know that some states have extended most civil rights laws to include them, but I'm unaware if a federal statute has extended the 1964 act or not (certainly they haven't extended the FHA to include them). Regardless, it still might be illegal under the broader 14th amendment.

  19. #19
    You're right. Although this particular British hotel might squeak by in the US if it had two fewer rooms because the owner also lives there. Apparently five-room in-house hotels are exempted from Title II.

    I suppose perhaps the more relevant issue here is how the government defines a "protected group". While gays obviously are (or should be) protected, I think I get uncomfortable with the idea that a business with a particular philosophical/religious bent can't be exclusive in some way. Especially if they are forced to accomodate a protected group that has special needs that are more expensive to serve.

    But I guess my main hand-wringing is that it [narrowly] sort of conflicts with freedom of association. Though of course we're honestly better-off with the law.

  20. #20
    I think I agree in principle with you, but I can't figure out a way to allow for some exclusivity on the basis of religious/etc. grounds that can't be grossly abused - e.g. a Jewish innkeeper who won't host polytheists/idolaters/pagans (Catholics, Hindus, Wiccans, etc.). Given that reality, I'd err on the side of protecting people from discrimination rather than allowing for some vague exceptions.


    Obviously this is a bit of a moot point since I haven't a clue about civil rights law in the UK, but I think most people would agree that a similar situation with a racial issue wouldn't even be debated right now. Why should we objectively make a difference between an interracial couple sharing a bed and a homosexual couple? Oh, I have lots of reasons you could pull out of religions, but that's not a very good legal case IMO.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Oh poo with you and your convenient buxom ladies

    Even so, given the current dispassion eugenics, argue that regulating sex in hotels is against this or that amendment?
    If this happened in America, you mean? It's not a constitutional violation, no, but Congress would be able to regulate any attempts to deny service via the interstate commerce clause, as it did with the Civil Rights Acts, concerning denying service based on race. There is not presently a federal statute forbidding discrimination based on orientation or marital status. At the state level, some jurisdictions have such legislation and some do not. Congress would be unable to pass legislation mandating "no premarital sex in hotels" on the basis that privacy rights extend to control over our own bodies, but I don't think it is within the scope of federal power to require sex in hotels. And no one, particularly Nevada, wants to see what would happen if the Feds took it upon themselves to ensure that everyone in a hotel was having sex. Talk about your unfair government practices, using federal muscle to out-compete the nascent legalized sex trade.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  22. #22
    And yet it's perfectly fine for individuals (and the government) to discriminate based on marital status. In the place where I live, the only way for two people of opposite genders to live together is to be married (or be family).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    And yet it's perfectly fine for individuals (and the government) to discriminate based on marital status. In the place where I live, the only way for two people of opposite genders to live together is to be married (or be family).
    On-campus grad student housing? How quaint. Lots of co-ed housing here in California schools.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    On-campus grad student housing? How quaint. Lots of co-ed housing here in California schools.
    It's not even fully on campus. And this is in Illinois, that last bastion of conservatism.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #25
    It's worth noting this B&B was not discriminating against gays, but against all unmarried couples, at least officially.

    I don't buy the "it's my property/home" argument. Nobodies saying they should share your bedroom, but once you make the rest of it a business you need to obey the law.
    However I have one problem with the law and that's the hypocrisy. What if they refused to accept unmarried gays/straights but accepted married gays/straights? Oh wait, gays can't get married, because that's illegal. For that reason the law should be changed, to allow gay marriage.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    ^^Fair enough about obeying the law just that it's a silly one.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Yeah, I'm not seeing you on this one, Draco. Seriously, if a bed and breakfast owner in the US did this with an interracial couple or some other heterosexual couple that they object to, there wouldn't even be a discussion on whether it was wrong and illegal.
    I think it's wrong to discriminate against people/couples/groups on the grounds that they happen to be gay/black/muslim/whatever but I also think it's wrong that the government establishes such laws whereby they force people in such situations to accept them into their hotel or where ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I think you will find the average Internet libertarian will tell you that restaurant owners should be able to (if not should) tell niggers, Catholics and other such types to fuck off, if it pleased them. The invisible infallible hand of the Free Market would kill of their racism and bigotry for sure! Government is bad!
    Before you make any other crazed assumption, I don't consider myself to be a libertarian. I don't identify with any political doctrine/philosophy, but I do realise that my views coincide with them. I've only done very little reading, but my views come from using reason. I figure that if a government is to ensure the liberties/rights of its citizens then there shouldn't be a fine line between whom one can marry and what one wishes to do with their business/property. But since we live in such a world where there is such a line, where does it end? You're being hypocritical if you defend the right of a man to marry another man, but think it's ok for the government to impose itself on another persons property.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    You didn't really. I hope you don't mind, but I went in and fixed it for you. If you do mind, I can undo the changes. The problem was that most people here use a dark theme, and you had the text colored black, which makes it hard to read.
    I don't mind. When I pasted it, the text was completely different so thank you!

    But for those of you who think that this is 'ok', for the British government to dictate what you do with your property, tell me whether you think it would be 'ok' for the US government to interfere with the construction of that mosque in NYC? Say they decide to tell them that they can build it, so long as there are no Muslim symbols on the building (as far as I know, there is one).

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    You're being hypocritical if you defend the right of a man to marry another man, but think it's ok for the government to impose itself on another persons property.
    What has one to do with the other? Other than both are laws?

    But for those of you who think that this is 'ok', for the British government to dictate what you do with your property, tell me whether you think it would be 'ok' for the US government to interfere with the construction of that mosque in NYC? Say they decide to tell them that they can build it, so long as there are no Muslim symbols on the building (as far as I know, there is one).
    Building restirctions are very common, so it could be possible that a restriction for Muslim symbols could be necessary. The same goes for any kind of law about buildings. Height restrictions, pollution restriction ect. ect.
    It has never been the case that you can do whatever you want on your own lawn, but of course it is debatable how many restrictions the government should impose.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  28. #28
    But in the US gay marriage isn't legal (in all states), so there's no way a gay couple could comply with the B & B rule like that. Home-based businesses are exempt from lots of things, not sure where the lines are drawn.

    We also have Adults-Only / no-children-allowed places, but they don't call that Age Discrimination.
    There are cruise lines that offer Gay-Only travel packages, but they don't call that Sex Discrimination. If they booked a Women-Only cruise, no one would call that Gender Discrimination.

    Recently, I read about a new niche in hotel boutiques catering to Gays. Most don't prohibit straight people from staying there, but call themselves Straight-Friendly. Some advertise as Gay-Only, but I don't recall anyone saying that was Discrimination against straight people.

  29. #29
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    The fun part comes in when you consider that the Bible nowhere defines what a "marriage" actually is.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    The fun part comes in when you consider that the Bible nowhere defines what a "marriage" actually is.
    Would this B & B blow a gasket if a "married" Mormon couple checked in as a 50 yr old man with his 14 yr old wife? How about a polygamist?

    Their double bed sharing as meant only for heterosexual married couples sounds kinda lame. What if a mom wanted to save money by sharing a double bed with her toddler?

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