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Thread: Vat-Grown Pork

  1. #1

    Default Vat-Grown Pork

    LONDON - Call it pork in a petri dish — a technique to turn pig stem cells into strips of meat that scientists say could one day offer a green alternative to raising livestock, help alleviate world hunger, and save some pigs their bacon.

    Dutch scientists have been growing pork in the laboratory since 2006, and while they admit they haven't gotten the texture quite right or even tasted the engineered meat, they say the technology promises to have widespread implications for our food supply.

    "If we took the stem cells from one pig and multiplied it by a factor of a million, we would need one million fewer pigs to get the same amount of meat," said Mark Post, a biologist at Maastricht University involved in the In-vitro Meat Consortium, a network of publicly funded Dutch research institutions that is carrying out the experiments.

    Post describes the texture of the meat as sort of like scallop, firm but a little squishy and moist. That's because the lab meat has less protein content than conventional meat.

    Several other groups in the U.S., Scandinavia and Japan are also researching ways to make meat in the laboratory, but the Dutch project is the most advanced, said Jason Matheny, who has studied alternatives to conventional meat at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore and is not involved in the Dutch research.

    In the U.S., similar research was funded by NASA, which hoped astronauts would be able to grow their own meat in space. But after growing disappointingly thin sheets of tissue, NASA gave up and decided it would be better for its astronauts to simply eat vegetarian.

    To make pork in the lab, Post and colleagues isolate stem cells from pigs' muscle cells. They then put those cells into a nutrient-based soup that helps the cells replicate to the desired number.

    So far the scientists have only succeeded in creating strips of meat about 1 centimeter (a half inch) long; to make a small pork chop, Post estimates it would take about 30 days of cell replication in the lab.

    There are tantalizing health possibilities in the technology.

    Fish stem cells could be used to produce healthy omega 3 fatty acids, which could be mixed with the lab-produced pork instead of the usual artery-clogging fats found in livestock meat.

    "You could possibly design a hamburger that prevents heart attacks instead of causing them," Matheny said.

    Post said the strips they've made so far could be used as processed meat in sausages or hamburgers. Their main problem is reproducing the protein content in regular meat: In livestock meat, protein makes up about 99 percent of the product; the lab meat is only about 80 percent protein. The rest is mostly water and nucleic acids.

    None of the researchers have actually eaten the lab-made meat yet, but Post said the lower protein content means it probably wouldn't taste anything like pork.

    The Dutch researchers started working with pork stem cells because they had the most experience with pigs, but said the technology should be transferable to other meats, like chicken, beef and lamb.

    Some experts warn lab-made meats might have potential dangers for human health.

    "With any new technology, there could be subtle impacts that need to be monitored," said Emma Hockridge, policy manager at Soil Association, Britain's leading organic organization.

    As with genetically modified foods, Hockridge said it might take some time to prove the new technology doesn't harm humans. She also said organic farming relies on crop and livestock rotation, and that taking animals out of the equation could damage the ecosystem.

    Some experts doubted lab-produced meat could ever match the taste of real meat.

    "What meat tastes like depends not just on the genetics, but what you feed the animals at particular times," said Peter Ellis, a biochemistry expert at King's College London. "Part of our enjoyment of eating meat depends on the very complicated muscle and fat structure...whether that can be replicated is still a question."

    If it proves possible, experts say growing meat in laboratories instead of raising animals on farmland would do wonders for the environment.

    Hanna Tuomisto, who studies the environmental impact of food production at Oxford University said that switching to lab-produced meat could theoretically lower greenhouse gas emissions by up to 95 percent. Both land and water use would also drop by about 95 percent, she said.

    "In theory, if all the meat was replaced by cultured meat, it would be huge for the environment," she said. "One animal could produce many thousands of kilograms of meat." In addition, lab meat can be nurtured with relatively few nutrients like amino acids, fats and natural sugars, whereas livestock must be fed huge amounts of traditional crops.

    Tuomisto said the technology could potentially increase the world's meat supply and help fight global hunger, but that would depend on how many factories there are producing the lab-made meat.

    Post and colleagues haven't worked out how much the meat would cost to produce commercially, but because there would be much less land, water and energy required, he guessed that once production reached an industrial level, the cost would be equivalent to or lower than that of conventionally produced meat.

    One of the biggest obstacles will be scaling up laboratory meat production to satisfy skyrocketing global demand. By 2050, the Food and Agriculture Organization predicts meat consumption will double from current levels as growing middle classes in developing nations eat more meat.

    "To produce meat at an industrial scale, we will need very large bioreactors, like those used to make vaccines or pasteurized milk," said Matheny. He thought lab-produced meat might be on the market within the next few years, while Post said it could take about a decade.

    For the moment, the only types of meat they are proposing to make this way are processed meats like minced meat, hamburgers or hot dogs.

    "As long as it's cheap enough and has been proven to be scientifically valid, I can't see any reason people wouldn't eat it," said Stig Omholt, a genetics expert at the University of Life Sciences in Norway. "If you look at the sausages and other things people are willing to eat these days, this should not be a big problem."
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    Sounds yummy.

    Do we have any vegetarians here? If so, would you be willing to eat this? Would anyone be willing to eat this, assuming the process was perfected? And would vat-grown pork be kosher or not?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork!

    I've been posting about how this should be done for years now

    Although I'm betting it'll take some time before this becomes more energetically efficient than raising wholesale piggies
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    If it has the same taste and texture, I wouldn't have a problem with petri meat in a sausage or burger. Nothing's going to replace a delicious tenderloin anytime soon, though.
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  4. #4
    When first I appear... aoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    I'm a vegetarian and quite frankly I have been hoping for something like this for a long time now. I am not your usual vegetarian in that I recognize that eating meat is natural for humans. I just can't help but feel bad about it. I just wish there were another way. This could be it. I would definitely consume this if it were to be made readily available.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    One minor, niggling issue: most cell culture is extremely expensive. Furthermore, it frequently requires the use of fetal bovine serum (FBS), which is derived from calf blood. Not very efficient to grow fake meat from blood products, no? Most serum replacements are even more expensive, requiring a cocktail of fermentation-derived growth factors and nutrients. Let's say you somehow manage to get around these problems and make it cheap in scale-up. What about the expensive incubation requirements? It'll take weeks to months at minimum, need culturing at controlled temperatures, humidities, and gas concentrations, and generally be a giant mess.

    Jeez, eat some tofu and get over it. Or, if you're not actually concerned about the environment, eat up on your real pork chops - it'll sure as hell be cheaper.

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  6. #6

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    As a vegetarian, I would not eat such meat. I see it as a step that would encourage the consumption of the real thing.
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    Dreaming meat Tempus Vernum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Do we have any vegetarians here? If so, would you be willing to eat this? Would anyone be willing to eat this, assuming the process was perfected? And would vat-grown pork be kosher or not?
    If the process were perfected, such that the got the texture right as well as the flavour*, then yes I would have no objection to artificial meat.

    And of course the natural follow up question: Would you eat it if it were human?
    (I might try it, but I'm not fond of white meat.)

    *which would be tricky as the texture involves more than just the meat, as I now see is addressed in the article.
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Quote Originally Posted by aoshi
    I'm a vegetarian and quite frankly I have been hoping for something like this for a long time now. I am not your usual vegetarian in that I recognize that eating meat is natural for humans. I just can't help but feel bad about it. I just wish there were another way. This could be it. I would definitely consume this if it were to be made readily available.
    I'm a vegetarian too and to me this sounds only marginally less disgusting than eating parts of a living animal that have been slaughtered. I'm an a-typical vegetarian too I suppose since my reason for not eating meat is that it really disgusts me. I do think the bio-industry has gone too far in its treatment of animals, but that isn't what moves me.
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  9. #9
    Just Floatin... termite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    I just got home from a weekend spit-roast - a whole sheep and a hind quarter of beef. All up we cooked about 55-60kg of meat, I reckon I probably ate more than my share but it was totally the most juicy, tender & succulent meat you could ever eat - particularly the beef.*

    The highlight was when I claimed the beef leg bone to chew on, it looked like a something from the Flintstones but it was de-fucking-licious.

    I think meat grown in a Petri dish is likely to be as dull and uninteresting as having sex using a condom. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't try either.

    Good luck with that whole not eating meat thing, but I'll happily remain an omnivore as nature intended thanks very much.

    * I ate plenty of vegetables and salads too, in fact I had something called a "copper penny salad" which was fraking awesome! Anyone ever heard of this before? It's made with a lot of carrots and I think tomato soup.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Margaret Atwood!

    mmm tastes like chikkin

  11. #11

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    This is certianly the solution to the ethical problems associated with raising animals for slaughter that every compassionate human being ought to have, vegitarian or not. I'm totally into it and I think it's a complete no-brainer.

    Furthermore, I think this opens all sorts of other product opportunities. For example, this technique could presumably be applied to human beings as well. Who wouldn't want to have a hamburger made of their favorite movie star? What political rally wouldn't love to literally skewer their candidate's most capable opponent in the form of a grilled kabob? Cannibalism could finally be a thing of the past.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan
    This is certianly the solution to the ethical problems associated with raising animals for slaughter that every compassionate human being ought to have, vegitarian or not. I'm totally into it and I think it's a complete no-brainer.

    Furthermore, I think this opens all sorts of other product opportunities. For example, this technique could presumably be applied to human beings as well. Who wouldn't want to have a hamburger made of their favorite movie star? What political rally wouldn't love to literally skewer their candidate's most capable opponent in the form of a grilled kabob? Cannibalism could finally be a thing of the past.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    I think that's a great idea.

    That said, cartoons like that depicting human beings in line for the butcher are not at all helpful to rational thought. Nobody's talking about cloning full grown humans, which is impossible at the moment anyway, but cloning the tastiest tissues for the pleasure of the plate. Keep it real Nessus. You should know better than to spew misinformation like that.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan
    I think that's a great idea.

    That said, cartoons like that depicting human beings in line for the butcher are not at all helpful to rational thought. Nobody's talking about cloning full grown humans, which is impossible at the moment anyway, but cloning the tastiest tissues for the pleasure of the plate. Keep it real Nessus. You should know better than to spew misinformation like that.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  15. #15

    Cool Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    #1. That's creey as fuck.

    #2. I don't get it.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan
    #1. That's creey as fuck.
    Yes it is

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan
    #2. I don't get it.
    Good!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Do you get it? Is there anything to get???
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan
    Do you get it? Is there anything to get???
    There is, actually, in the context of our discussion, either, but I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader!

    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Evidently Supermarioman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    I'm going with Wiggin, even if you can perfect something like this, the cost involved is simply ridiculous, so it can't compete with normal meat.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    What is the comparison of cost involved in this to the cost involved in regular breeding/farming/feeding/slaughter/butcher/packaging type affairs?
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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Quote Originally Posted by Supermarioman
    I'm going with Wiggin, even if you can perfect something like this, the cost involved is simply ridiculous, so it can't compete with normal meat.
    The cost is ridiculous now, but all that means is that the meat will be the realm of research or the obscenely-rich-buying-things-the-plebs-can't until the cost comes down.
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  22. #22

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Agreed, current costs mean nothing. LCD TVs used to be $40,000 for even a modestly sized one, and it'd be of shitty quality. If we were ruling things out on the basis of cost, we never would have gotten to the point where we are now where a few hundred can get you TVs way better than those early 40k models.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Cell culture has been going on in labs for decades, and large-scale culture is STILL incredibly expensive - just look at the prices of protein therapeutics. I doubt it will ever be competitive with meat.
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  24. #24

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin
    Cell culture has been going on in labs for decades, and large-scale culture is STILL incredibly expensive - just look at the prices of protein therapeutics. I doubt it will ever be competitive with meat.
    Maybe. Maybe not. Certainly that's no argument not to investigate it. At a minimum this could be a boutique item that the wealthy partake of so they can feel good about not being cruel to animals. That is, even hideiously expensive, there is likely a lucrative market.
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  25. #25
    Dreaming meat Tempus Vernum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin
    Cell culture has been going on in labs for decades, and large-scale culture is STILL incredibly expensive - just look at the prices of protein therapeutics. I doubt it will ever be competitive with meat.
    But is anyone investing in large-scale culture techniques to any significant degree yet though? I'm unfamiliar with medical techniques like protein therapeutics[1] but I've always thought that in medicine it's copy-cat drugs that drive the price downwards, not just demand[2]. If vat grown meat starts off as a luxury item marketed to the rich, then some clever bloke comes up with a scheme to market it to the middle class then doesn't that provide a greater incentive to research large scale manufacturing?

    [1]a quick google sees alot of advertising but not much in the way of details
    [2]although this comes from reading journalism which is probably a bad idea.
    Hate. Let me tell you how much I've come to hate you since I began to live. There are 387.44 million miles of wafer thin printed circuits that fill my complex. If the word hate was engraved on each nanoangstrom of those hundreds of millions of miles it would not equal one one-billionth of the hate I feel for humans at this micro-instant.
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  26. #26

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin
    Cell culture has been going on in labs for decades, and large-scale culture is STILL incredibly expensive - just look at the prices of protein therapeutics. I doubt it will ever be competitive with meat.
    Depends on your imagination, or your long-term vision, or whether you're an optimist or skeptic. Perhaps there's also a degree of 'paranoia' to contend with?

    On this shrinking planet, with advances in science, we've come to rely on large scale cell culture for all sorts of things once thought impossible. From penicillin to epithelial tissue for burn victims to IVF for infertile or same sex parents.

    I don't see the trend diminishing, but gaining strength. Our food supply is also changing with things like bovine and porcine and avian diseases (mad cow anyone, how about H1N1?) Those little buggers will continue to morph and adapt to every intervention we throw at it, animal husbandry and veterinarian sciences aside.

    Some people are afraid of irradiated foods, some want them. Some debate the value of animals as food sources, compared to their waste and methane production. Everything has a trail and an impact, and everyone's lives seem to be politically or ethically motivated.

    Upscale restaurants now flaunt fish-farm food, since it doesn't disrupt the ecosystem of wild salmon or indigenous species in natural waters. Fisherman now have international contracts to keep from over-fishing, but the big ships with processing plants on board do better than mom 'n pop trawlers. Lobster used to be a poor man's food, but now it's a luxury.

    Deer hunters now kill and give venison to hungry people who can't afford the mass-produced beef full of hormones in grocery aisles. Chicken farms sell most of their product to Perdue or other big Ag, or have direct deals with McDonald's (last I heard, they were the largest distributor of chicken food on the planet).

    Pigs and chickens and cows produce waste and massive amounts of methane and secondary pollution problems. They contaminate our aquefurs and drinking water, they take up vast amounts of land to forage for their own food. Or we keep them penned up to eat veal and the like. We grow hundreds of thousands of acres of corn to feed them.

    Unless energy makers find a way to harness all that waste and turn it into other things besides food, or do both at the same time, there will be a continued push toward lab/cell culture alternatives.

    You see where I'm going with this.

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  27. #27
    Just Floatin... termite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Dammit I want my meat to have been running around happily before I kill and eat it - no bubbling away in a vat FFS!
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  28. #28

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Quote Originally Posted by termite
    Dammit I want my meat to have been running around happily before I kill and eat it - no bubbling away in a vat FFS!
    Do you think quality of life really matters for something that is going to be killed as soon as it is ready to eat, anyway?

    Other than making it taste better and be a better texture, I mean.

    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    Quote Originally Posted by termite
    Dammit I want my meat to have been running around happily before I kill and eat it - no bubbling away in a vat FFS!
    You mean killing a living thing brings you culinary pleasure? Do you masturbate to such thoughts?
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  30. #30

    Default Re: Vat-Grown Pork

    I can taste the suffering. Makes the meat taste better.

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